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The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread

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The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread

Old 04-29-18, 07:36 AM
  #2926  
big john
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Happy Birthday
Thanks!
Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
Happy Birthday! Only one more year before you start getting spam calls for Medicare supplemental insurance, enjoy the relative silence while you can.
Been getting the AARP junk mail and tons of life insurance crap for years. Recently I started getting stuff from the Neptune Society.

Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
Happy birthday. Should've cut the ride a mile short though.
I thought about that, but the mileage was a coincidence.
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Old 04-29-18, 08:27 PM
  #2927  
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Listening to music, emotions just overwhelming me.

I remember watching "Shine" in the theater. It was an innocent date with my then gf but I ended up breaking down during the course of the movie. This review in IMBD describes exactly what happened to me.
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Old 04-29-18, 11:59 PM
  #2928  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post

Listening to music, emotions just overwhelming me.

I remember watching "Shine" in the theater. It was an innocent date with my then gf but I ended up breaking down during the course of the movie. This review in IMBD describes exactly what happened to me.
Great film. Saw David Helfgott perform in NYC after the film was out. Sadly, the performance was more novelty than quality.

Still, his story remains brilliant.
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Old 04-30-18, 12:06 AM
  #2929  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post

Listening to music, emotions just overwhelming me.

I remember watching "Shine" in the theater. It was an innocent date with my then gf but I ended up breaking down during the course of the movie. This review in IMBD describes exactly what happened to me.
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I thought I was around 12 percent based on internet photos, my scale and a pinch gauge, but then I had a dexa scan. Turns out I was closer to 20 percent and looked like a fat blob on the scan.

It was not a happy day.
yeah—those photos and many caliper tests results are highly suspect. There are different kinds of fat and people store fat in different ways. The DEXA is a truth-teller and often yields far higher numbers than many people are conditioned to think.

My analogy os those commercials for Zumba or whatever: “Burn up to 1,000 calories per hour!”

Repeatedly hearing that type of stuff leads people to believe it is actually true. So, too, with most of the “sub-10% body fat” photos you see out there.

ive gone through the “no way I could possibly lose more weight” phase only to (years later) lose 16 more pounds to get to low-5s. It’s super eye-opening when you learn the truth.

TBH most folks shouldn’t get it done as it is just depressing and will lead to less enjoyment of the normal stuff of life when one learns what they ACTUALLY must do to get that low.
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Old 04-30-18, 05:24 AM
  #2930  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post

TBH most folks shouldn’t get it done as it is just depressing and will lead to less enjoyment of the normal stuff of life when one learns what they ACTUALLY must do to get that low.
Though the performance benefits!

When I'd get down to 149 I used to be like whoah this is it. I'm sure if I wanted to suffer for it I could hit 130. As it is w/kg I'm way better lighter through every power bucket, and many I'm just flat out putting out more power. Not to say lighter equates to more power, but I'm fueling healthier and am fitter.
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Old 04-30-18, 06:59 AM
  #2931  
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Well I had an incredibly crappy morning.

The dog ate something that messed up his stomach, and he had a nice bout of diarrhea at some point in the evening. (He had been farting pretty badly last night, so I really hoped the stench when I came downstairs was just that. It wasn't.)

Then, while cleaning it up, I accidentally spilled the bucket with the nasty water and poop back onto the floor, making and even bigger mess. I had to get out the bleach to properly disinfect half the kitchen. As I was leaving, my wife asked about breakfast. I told her I'd get something to eat at the office cafeteria. I didn't feel like eating at that point.

I'll probably go back over all of it when I get home tonight.
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Old 04-30-18, 07:18 AM
  #2932  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Well I had an incredibly crappy morning.

The dog ate something that messed up his stomach, and he had a nice bout of diarrhea at some point in the evening. (He had been farting pretty badly last night, so I really hoped the stench when I came downstairs was just that. It wasn't.)

Then, while cleaning it up, I accidentally spilled the bucket with the nasty water and poop back onto the floor, making and even bigger mess. I had to get out the bleach to properly disinfect half the kitchen. As I was leaving, my wife asked about breakfast. I told her I'd get something to eat at the office cafeteria. I didn't feel like eating at that point.

I'll probably go back over all of it when I get home tonight.
That's pretty awful. We had our share of cleaning up gross dog messed when we had two of them (doberman sisters). Between pooping in the car during road trips to throwing up a bunch of grass (sometimes they would eat grass obsessively), it was always an adventure. But they were special characters
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Old 04-30-18, 09:42 AM
  #2933  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Though the performance benefits!

When I'd get down to 149 I used to be like whoah this is it. I'm sure if I wanted to suffer for it I could hit 130. As it is w/kg I'm way better lighter through every power bucket, and many I'm just flat out putting out more power. Not to say lighter equates to more power, but I'm fueling healthier and am fitter.
i've written many times on how it is possible to lose fat even during hard training, and how one can lean out while not only maintaining but also improving power.

after years of thinking about it and hearing most peoples' responses, i think many would be happier just looking at photos and believing they're at 9, 10, 12, whatever % BF. a quality DEXA can leave many people shell-shocked, and the steps to get really lean in a verifiable way are not easy. you are no stranger to the need to get lean based on your past experiences and hobbies, and you now realize that you were 15, 20# to go before you've reached a holy-grail limit. it's easier for people to claim they want it and think they've gotten there rather than to actually do it.

for many, the journey leads to disappointment (it's hard to get there let alone maintain it), and once you're aware some people then focus on what they are NOT instead of what they are.

i've used them annually for years and believe in them strongly to improve health (awareness of BF%, types of fat, where it is stored, and associated cardiovascular risks based on where it is stored).

it's kind of like power, though: lots of people want to own a power meter or for #s to just match their expectation (or higher! ;-)); accuracy is less a priority.

just my experience based on talking to lots of others and observing how they respond. ignorance can be bliss.
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Old 04-30-18, 09:54 AM
  #2934  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i've written many times on how it is possible to lose fat even during hard training, and how one can lean out while not only maintaining but also improving power.
I think I must have missed that, any chance you could link or tell me where to look? Relevant to my interests because I can't seem to get to the point where I consistently have some abs showing, which to me says I'm carrying an extra 5 lbs at least
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Old 04-30-18, 10:01 AM
  #2935  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
I think I must have missed that, any chance you could link or tell me where to look? Relevant to my interests because I can't seem to get to the point where I consistently have some abs showing, which to me says I'm carrying an extra 5 lbs at least
yeah and the really difficult thing, which teton is pointing to, is I have a 6 pack and veins in my abs (or had, before this injury) and can still lose 5 pounds.

Last edited by gsteinb; 04-30-18 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 04-30-18, 10:16 AM
  #2936  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i've written many times on how it is possible to lose fat even during hard training, and how one can lean out while not only maintaining but also improving power.

after years of thinking about it and hearing most peoples' responses, i think many would be happier just looking at photos and believing they're at 9, 10, 12, whatever % BF. a quality DEXA can leave many people shell-shocked, and the steps to get really lean in a verifiable way are not easy. you are no stranger to the need to get lean based on your past experiences and hobbies, and you now realize that you were 15, 20# to go before you've reached a holy-grail limit. it's easier for people to claim they want it and think they've gotten there rather than to actually do it.

for many, the journey leads to disappointment (it's hard to get there let alone maintain it), and once you're aware some people then focus on what they are NOT instead of what they are.

i've used them annually for years and believe in them strongly to improve health (awareness of BF%, types of fat, where it is stored, and associated cardiovascular risks based on where it is stored).

it's kind of like power, though: lots of people want to own a power meter or for #s to just match their expectation (or higher! ;-)); accuracy is less a priority.

just my experience based on talking to lots of others and observing how they respond. ignorance can be bliss.
Yes, the DEXA scan numbers made me sad, and the images provided made me feel really gross. I really felt like I was a fat blob, when by most standards, I am a pretty thin guy. I don't quite have a 6 pack, but I do have some definition in my mid section.

I'm probably still close to that 20 percent. I know it's possible to get down to closer to 10, but I'm not sure I want to make that commitment. It would really require me to completely overhaul my diet, and I just kind of like to eat.
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Old 04-30-18, 10:23 AM
  #2937  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i've written many times on how it is possible to lose fat even during hard training, and how one can lean out while not only maintaining but also improving power.

after years of thinking about it and hearing most peoples' responses, i think many would be happier just looking at photos and believing they're at 9, 10, 12, whatever % BF. a quality DEXA can leave many people shell-shocked, and the steps to get really lean in a verifiable way are not easy. you are no stranger to the need to get lean based on your past experiences and hobbies, and you now realize that you were 15, 20# to go before you've reached a holy-grail limit. it's easier for people to claim they want it and think they've gotten there rather than to actually do it.

for many, the journey leads to disappointment (it's hard to get there let alone maintain it), and once you're aware some people then focus on what they are NOT instead of what they are.

i've used them annually for years and believe in them strongly to improve health (awareness of BF%, types of fat, where it is stored, and associated cardiovascular risks based on where it is stored).

it's kind of like power, though: lots of people want to own a power meter or for #s to just match their expectation (or higher! ;-)); accuracy is less a priority.

just my experience based on talking to lots of others and observing how they respond. ignorance can be bliss.
I thought 152 was my end point but its probably another 10. I'm at 150 now, so there's still work to do but if I can maintain my FTP that puts me on a level I never thought would be attainable. I've tightened up my diet, and started doing a lot of other exercises off the bike that are critical for me (yoga, nerve flossing, ab work, weights). After 5 years of serious training this is the closest I've gotten to peak but part of me thinks I'm still a year off.

I think if most cyclists hired a coach, and that coach would have them ride 500 miles a week, they'd be fine with it; but if they had them ride less and put them on a diet, gym routine, calisthenics, and yoga they'd be fired in a heartbeat. After doing an honest assessment of where I was at, those things off the bike are just as important. It also make training crazy harder than it was.
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Old 04-30-18, 02:19 PM
  #2938  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I'm probably still close to that 20 percent. I know it's possible to get down to closer to 10, but I'm not sure I want to make that commitment. It would really require me to completely overhaul my diet, and I just kind of like to eat.
Not to mention that for many riders, depending on where they live and the type of racing they're focused on, there may little or no benefit to getting down to single-digit BF. And trying to get there carries some risk, trying to walk that fine line of carrying enough of a calorie deficit to lose the fat without compromising training or your immune system.
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Old 04-30-18, 07:52 PM
  #2939  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
yeah and the really difficult thing, which teton is pointing to, is I have a 6 pack and veins in my abs (or had, before this injury) and can still lose 5 pounds.
the old 'visible abs' thing is a good general rule, but due to the way individuals store fat it may or may not be telling for a given person.

it's a hard pill to swallow for many of us as we've been conditioned to believe inaccurate numbers due to frequent comments and photos that under-report BF%.

last week i had a discussion with a friend of nearly three decades who was recently diagnosed with stomach cancer. by all accounts he is a fat guy (lots of subcutaneous fat), which actually proved good for handling chemo. however, his next step is removal of the stomach AT BEST. yeah, that's the treatment. the thing is, for whatever reason he happens to not store much fat viscerally. if the surgeons see his intestines are fairly clear next week, they may be able to fashion him something that will eventually grow to be a new stomach (or thereabouts); if it turns out they are wrong, well.... that's not good. honestly, i'm pretty rattled by the whole thing.

I find the nature of fat and individualization interesting. the ratio of android to gynoid fat (as can be reveled in a DEXA) is highly correlated to cardiovascular risks, and working to change that can literally save one's life. i think there is way more to this than going up hills fast, though that is important, too.


Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Yes, the DEXA scan numbers made me sad, and the images provided made me feel really gross. I really felt like I was a fat blob, when by most standards, I am a pretty thin guy. I don't quite have a 6 pack, but I do have some definition in my mid section.

I'm probably still close to that 20 percent. I know it's possible to get down to closer to 10, but I'm not sure I want to make that commitment. It would really require me to completely overhaul my diet, and I just kind of like to eat.
yeah, it's a tough thing. getting to sub-10% let alone mid-single digits is really hard work. cycling (training) already requires us to make sacrifices. we all draw a line somewhere. (well, i guess the DOPERS don't!) and in order to maintain those #s, one has to be "that guy" at a party or any occasion where food is served.

as a society we're also conditioned to believe that a much larger body size is 'normal' vs, say, if we lived in india our definition of normal would be different.

not saying this applies to you, but many of us have heard the term 'skinny fat.' one can be skinny with a high BF% (relatively). as an aside, there is a restaurant in Las Vegas called SkinnyFATS which is inexpensive and amazing, esp for people in training who want a healthy meal and must eat out. I eat almost all my meals there when passing through.

it's got to be a lifestyle change rather than something that is a 'diet' or temporary solution. at least IME, those are the people who are long-term successful.

Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
I think I must have missed that, any chance you could link or tell me where to look? Relevant to my interests because I can't seem to get to the point where I consistently have some abs showing, which to me says I'm carrying an extra 5 lbs at least
I've posted on the subject many times, but there is no universal prescription. When someone I work with is serious about this, we start by assessing their current diet. If the goal is to increase power AND lean out (in season), I get hyper-focused on macronutrients and timing. It also becomes critical that workouts are properly-fueled.

Losing weight is easy (esp if we are just talking pounds of any sort), just like increasing power is easy until/unless a rider is highly trained. When you talk about sub-10% BF, it becomes more of something that needs to be optimized. It's not so hard just to drop weight by cutting calories, though that can lead to loss in power and loss in lean muscle.

Also, if improperly done it can lead to mood swings, irritability, etc.; that's material if we are talking about cycling as a hobby, where a person might have co-workers, family, etc.

Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I thought 152 was my end point but its probably another 10. I'm at 150 now, so there's still work to do but if I can maintain my FTP that puts me on a level I never thought would be attainable. I've tightened up my diet, and started doing a lot of other exercises off the bike that are critical for me (yoga, nerve flossing, ab work, weights). After 5 years of serious training this is the closest I've gotten to peak but part of me thinks I'm still a year off.

I think if most cyclists hired a coach, and that coach would have them ride 500 miles a week, they'd be fine with it; but if they had them ride less and put them on a diet, gym routine, calisthenics, and yoga they'd be fired in a heartbeat. After doing an honest assessment of where I was at, those things off the bike are just as important. It also make training crazy harder than it was.
well, that depends.

of cyclists who hire a coach, ONE reason is to win races. for those athletes, i find that many of them are not interested in changing diet. either they don't think it matters or they believe they're already as lean as they can be. others don't want to do what it takes. that's fine. for winning races, unless there is an unusual weakness or imbalance (injury or otherwise), there is little benefit to yoga/gym/calisthenics. specificity matters.

now, if we are talking about making a well-rounded human being, that is another story. many people hire a coach (or just self-train "seriously") in order to hang with a group on a group ride, or achieve a 'completion' goal, or "to be more fit". Others want someone to talk with about their riding (in the ski industry we called certain instructors 'rent-a-friends'). none of it is wrong, though it does affect what one might want to do with that person in order to help them achieve THEIR goal. the coach's goal *for people with a cycling hobby, like all of us* is not important; the athlete's goal is the one that matters.



Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Not to mention that for many riders, depending on where they live and the type of racing they're focused on, there may little or no benefit to getting down to single-digit BF. And trying to get there carries some risk, trying to walk that fine line of carrying enough of a calorie deficit to lose the fat without compromising training or your immune system.
true.

i think the myth about training (and calorie restriction) materially diminishing the immune system has largely been debunked. that said, training hard + restricting calories + other stressors = living on a razor's edge. if one DOES get sick, there are less reserves to handle it and it can linger longer. these are also the people who tend to rest too little and rush back to activity, so that may be mixed in.

it is still possible for a given person's power peak to get them as lean as can be, and even in flat courses there is almost never a DISadvantage to being more lean. however, the effort required to get that small advantage may not be as great as for someone who needs to win TdF mountain stages.

lower mass riders can do better on a track (there's a sweet spot). dr. ferrari -- if you get past his doping stuff -- has many interesting writings on this. he's a pretty brilliant guy when in comes to optimizing everything for cycling. shame he got caught up with the doping, but that, too, for him was about optimization.

interesting discussion. YMMV, IME, IMO, just my $0.02.
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Old 04-30-18, 09:12 PM
  #2940  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I met him a few years back, forget his name though. Big guy, over 6 feet. Just look for the Air Force kids and ask for his kid Daniel.

Also tell him he everyone* thinks he was right and he should come back to the forum.

*not everyone
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Old 04-30-18, 09:14 PM
  #2941  
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yes! I got the gynoid fat thing
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Old 04-30-18, 11:36 PM
  #2942  
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Tetonrider
On the "training diminishes immune system" thing.
I've noticed I get sick less and less severe ever since I started racing a few years ago. First hint of illness, cut hard riding and add 3 to 4 hours of sleep and it usually is warded off (although still last week I missed the signs, raced, and got a full fledged tho short lived cold). But it could just be that racing got me more in tune with how I was feeling and needing rest.

Still, I keep reading that immune system is compromised immediately following a hard workout.
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Old 05-01-18, 01:01 AM
  #2943  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
Tetonrider
On the "training diminishes immune system" thing.
I've noticed I get sick less and less severe ever since I started racing a few years ago. First hint of illness, cut hard riding and add 3 to 4 hours of sleep and it usually is warded off (although still last week I missed the signs, raced, and got a full fledged tho short lived cold). But it could just be that racing got me more in tune with how I was feeling and needing rest.
anecdotes like this are not data, but you've gotta respect your experience.

Originally Posted by aaronmcd
Still, I keep reading that immune system is compromised immediately following a hard workout.
sometimes things that are repeated may turn out not to be true.

Last edited by tetonrider; 05-01-18 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 05-01-18, 05:04 AM
  #2944  
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linky no worky
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Old 05-01-18, 08:09 AM
  #2945  
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Try posting just the url without embedding it in the statement.
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Old 05-01-18, 12:44 PM
  #2946  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
linky no worky
should work now.

Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Try posting just the url without embedding it in the statement.
i've done it that way a bunch -- just either made a copy/paste error or i screwed up something in the new interface.
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Old 05-01-18, 12:48 PM
  #2947  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
should work now.



i've done it that way a bunch -- just either made a copy/paste error or i screwed up something in the new interface.
just trying to ascertain if there was something related to the forum upgrade
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Old 05-01-18, 12:50 PM
  #2948  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
just trying to ascertain if there was something related to the forum upgrade
not sure. i copied/pasted the link when i originally posted (super easy). when you pointed it out, the link only pointed to "m."

i could have screwed up the copy/paste, but i don't think so. could have also been a forum issue where i pasted the link with the "https://" in front of it, and maybe that caused a problem.

i probably just screwed up, though.
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Old 05-01-18, 01:15 PM
  #2949  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
just trying to ascertain if there was something related to the forum upgrade
i just posted a link in another thread and it worked just fine. i must have f-ed up the copy/paste from before.

and here i was, thinking you were actually interested in what i posted, not just whether there was a bug in the forum code! ;-)
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Old 05-01-18, 08:11 PM
  #2950  
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Didn't get the manager job, but got an internal recommendation because they liked me for a supervisor level 2 job (reporting to a manager, most people become a manager within a year or two of that position). Probably interview for that next week.

Also had our baby boy today. Mom and baby both good (and both sleeping). Life sure isn't boring lately.
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