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Anyone else built like this?

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Anyone else built like this?

Old 09-02-19, 06:19 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
Terry,

I am back home and was able to make a whole bunch of measurements. Some of the info I gave you earlier was wrong, but I was working from memory and that isn't the best. I measured both my Fuji and my Miyata which should have been similar, and they are. Here ya go:

Saddle top to ground (vertical) - Fuji 37", Miyata 37"
Handlebar top to ground, vertical - Fuji 37", Miyata 37"
Saddle top to crank spindle center - Fuji - 26", Miyata - 26"
Saddle nose to handlebar top center - Fuji - 19", Miyata - 18 1/2"
Top tube center of seat tube to center of head tube - Fuji 21", Miyata 21 1/4"
Bike Standover (not including 1/4"cable housing on top of top tube) Fuji - 29 1/4", Miyata - 29 1/2"
My standover to pubic bone - 30 1/2"
Top center of bars to center top of seat post Fuji - 24", Miyata - 23 1/2"

As far as standover, I have a gap of 1" to 1 1/4". If you consider that cable housing it shrinks to 3/4" to 1". I don't think any of these is excessive.

I know there is a discrepancy in the effective top tube length. I switch back and forth between these bikes daily and I am hoping to decide which I like better. So far, they're even.
I think one of the reasons you're getting unsatisfactory comments is that your bike photo isn't perfect. We like everything to be perfect, you know. The photo isn't level and the bike slants a bit away from the camera, which distorts the bike's proportions. The other thing is that you have what might be called a French fit position. That position usually features a larger frame, which then has less exposed post and the bars much closer to the top of the head tube. With that much exposed threaded stem, the bars are pushed way back toward you, thus you want a longer stem. And thus the bike looks quite odd, not of the proportions we usually see.

It is a bit odd that you have so little standover and yet so much exposed post. Be that as it may, bars level with saddle are not unusual among long distance riders and riders who use the French fit. You could look at photos of pros riding in the 50s and 60s to see similar fits like this one from 1960 TdF:



See what I'm saying? With this fit, everyone mostly rode in the drops, the hoods being so uncomfortable. Thus the bars were set higher with that in mind, and thus the frames were larger to limit the exposed stem. It all worked together. I rode a '62 Legnano which looked very similar to this, complete with chrome and half-step gearing, except my freewheel was a good big larger. This is how the bars and levers are supposed to be set up with this vintage and fit.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:36 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I think one of the reasons you're getting unsatisfactory comments is that your bike photo isn't perfect. We like everything to be perfect, you know. The photo isn't level and the bike slants a bit away from the camera, which distorts the bike's proportions. The other thing is that you have what might be called a French fit position. That position usually features a larger frame, which then has less exposed post and the bars much closer to the top of the head tube. With that much exposed threaded stem, the bars are pushed way back toward you, thus you want a longer stem. And thus the bike looks quite odd, not of the proportions we usually see.

It is a bit odd that you have so little standover and yet so much exposed post. Be that as it may, bars level with saddle are not unusual among long distance riders and riders who use the French fit. You could look at photos of pros riding in the 50s and 60s to see similar fits like this one from 1960 TdF:



See what I'm saying? With this fit, everyone mostly rode in the drops, the hoods being so uncomfortable. Thus the bars were set higher with that in mind, and thus the frames were larger to limit the exposed stem. It all worked together. I rode a '62 Legnano which looked very similar to this, complete with chrome and half-step gearing, except my freewheel was a good big larger. This is how the bars and levers are supposed to be set up with this vintage and fit.
Thanks!

I do see. If you forget about frame size for a second, what you are showing in the pic is the same as my bike. Except, switching to mine with a smaller frame, the top tube would be lower with more exposed seat post and bar stem. Right? Except I do not ride only in the drops. I tend to switch my hand position during rides from bar tops to hoods to drops. I do not find that uncomfortable, but then I'm not a long-distance rider. If I'm on the bike a couple of hours, that's a lot.

"This fit features a taller front end (with a larger frame and/or head tube extension and stem), handlebar to saddle drops that are much closer to level, and favors riders who are looking to ease stress on the neck and back, ride as long and as far as they like, and are not concerned with the looking like an aggressive professional. In comparison to the Eddy Fit, the rider has even more weight rearward and a slightly more upright position such that "hands in the drops position" is close to the Competitive Fit's "hands on the hoods position." Some may say that this was not how modern race bikes were "meant" to fit but we have learned that the French Fit's size up tradition works great on the most modern bikes.

By increasing the frame size we raise the bars without radical riser stems and still create balance and proportion with respect to the important knee-to-pedal dynamic. It is important to remember that as frames get larger the top tube effectively shortens. This means that the longer top tube on a larger frame is appropriate because as the bars come "up" and the ratio of saddle to bar drop lessens, the rider achieves a "reach" from the saddle to the handlebars that is just right!"
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Old 09-03-19, 03:44 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by diff View Post
Sorry, wasn't sure what was going on here.

I was replying in general to all bikes posted. But now see its the OP with the snarky reply.

Looking closer at your bike, why is the seat also slammed forward?

I do question if you were to center the saddle, and drop the stem to a normal height you would only have around 1.5 inches of bar drop. What would be the issue? That is completely normal for a road bike. However its abnormal to have drop bars higher than your saddle. Along with the saddle slammed forward. The frame is too big for you most likely. Or just completely setup wrong for whatever reason.

I think your body is built just fine, your head on the other hand....
I can understand why you would not want to read through this entire thread. But if you had, several of your questions would have been answered. With so many responses, most of them far afield from the original question, it's easy for me to get snarky.

1)The saddle was moved after this shot was taken.
2) The bars are not higher than the saddle. They are the same height. That's not unusual.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:49 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Just curious. How much of your stem is in the steerer below the headset lock nut?

Also, do you get shimmy with the handlebar on such a high stem? I tried a similar setup back in 1986 on an mtb I used for logging/mining road touring, when I put drop bars on it and I found on a rough surface the bike was nearly impossible to control due to shimmy caused by the tall stem.

Cheers
With such a short head tube, I get the bare minimum of that stem inserted. If I wanted to drop that stem I'd have to cut it. I actually took a hacksaw to the stem on another bike to get it fitted properly. Short head tubes on C&V bikes don't allow for much adjustment.

I haven't noticed any shimmy. For example, riding hands-free is no problem.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:51 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Tulok View Post
Looks very comfortable for you, Iím sure it will serve you well.

How many miles do you get in on it on your long rides?

I have my stem up pretty high too (max on std stem)
Thanks Tulok.

As I said elsewhere, I am by no means a long-distance rider. A couple of hours on my longer rides. The number of miles varies with the terrain. More hills = less miles!
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Old 09-03-19, 09:28 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
Thanks!

I do see. If you forget about frame size for a second, what you are showing in the pic is the same as my bike. Except, switching to mine with a smaller frame, the top tube would be lower with more exposed seat post and bar stem. Right? Except I do not ride only in the drops. I tend to switch my hand position during rides from bar tops to hoods to drops. I do not find that uncomfortable, but then I'm not a long-distance rider. If I'm on the bike a couple of hours, that's a lot.

"This fit features a taller front end (with a larger frame and/or head tube extension and stem), handlebar to saddle drops that are much closer to level, and favors riders who are looking to ease stress on the neck and back, ride as long and as far as they like, and are not concerned with the looking like an aggressive professional. In comparison to the Eddy Fit, the rider has even more weight rearward and a slightly more upright position such that "hands in the drops position" is close to the Competitive Fit's "hands on the hoods position." Some may say that this was not how modern race bikes were "meant" to fit but we have learned that the French Fit's size up tradition works great on the most modern bikes.

By increasing the frame size we raise the bars without radical riser stems and still create balance and proportion with respect to the important knee-to-pedal dynamic. It is important to remember that as frames get larger the top tube effectively shortens. This means that the longer top tube on a larger frame is appropriate because as the bars come "up" and the ratio of saddle to bar drop lessens, the rider achieves a "reach" from the saddle to the handlebars that is just right!"
Yes, correct. From competitivecyclist?

Because of the small frame, I don't think you'll be able to exactly duplicate your current bar height using a threadless adapter and modern stem. But that's the path forward. I think you'll like the new position a lot once you get used to it. Two hours doesn't seem like a long ride if one's position is right. And you'll vastly prefer riding on the modern brake levers' hoods.

The alternative is to start with a new, larger frame, an endurance frame as mentioned by another commenter. The forks on new bikes arrive at the shop with long steer tubes on their forks. The steer tubes are cut to length for the buyer's fit. Thus you can get your stem up higher with a new bike than by using an adapter on your present bike. I regard your current setup as very unsafe. I might rip that stem right out of the bike on a hard sprint and it could also fail under emergency braking or hitting an unseen bump on a descent. The physics are not good. Having one's front end come apart during a descent is not good.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:07 AM
  #107  
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It's a nice looking bike and I have seen similarly set up ones. However my main concern with bikes set up that way is the amount of stem inside the steerer and the torque such a tall stem can have.

Just to point out something else. If it were me riding such a set up I'd seriously consider getting bar end shifters as they'd make shifting a lot easier.

Also, if it were me, I'd remove those auxiliary brake levers as that'd greatly improve your braking with the main levers. If you want to be able to brake from the top of the bar then in-line/cyclo-cross brake levers are the best way to go. Then you have positive braking from either the top of the bar or from the main levers. I only mention that because many auxiliary brake levers like you have do NOT have the positive braking required for a panic stop and that section that hooks into the main brake lever reduces the travel of the main brake lever a fair bit.

Cheers
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Old 09-03-19, 11:30 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yes, correct. From competitivecyclist?

Because of the small frame, I don't think you'll be able to exactly duplicate your current bar height using a threadless adapter and modern stem. But that's the path forward. I think you'll like the new position a lot once you get used to it. Two hours doesn't seem like a long ride if one's position is right. And you'll vastly prefer riding on the modern brake levers' hoods.

The alternative is to start with a new, larger frame, an endurance frame as mentioned by another commenter. The forks on new bikes arrive at the shop with long steer tubes on their forks. The steer tubes are cut to length for the buyer's fit. Thus you can get your stem up higher with a new bike than by using an adapter on your present bike. I regard your current setup as very unsafe. I might rip that stem right out of the bike on a hard sprint and it could also fail under emergency braking or hitting an unseen bump on a descent. The physics are not good. Having one's front end come apart during a descent is not good.
I appreciate the advice, although I will probably leave well-enough alone. As far as the stem being unsafe, Technomics is a pretty well-regarded company. If they indicate a minimum insertion point, and I follow that, I am confident it's OK.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:35 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
It's a nice looking bike and I have seen similarly set up ones. However my main concern with bikes set up that way is the amount of stem inside the steerer and the torque such a tall stem can have.

Just to point out something else. If it were me riding such a set up I'd seriously consider getting bar end shifters as they'd make shifting a lot easier.

Also, if it were me, I'd remove those auxiliary brake levers as that'd greatly improve your braking with the main levers. If you want to be able to brake from the top of the bar then in-line/cyclo-cross brake levers are the best way to go. Then you have positive braking from either the top of the bar or from the main levers. I only mention that because many auxiliary brake levers like you have do NOT have the positive braking required for a panic stop and that section that hooks into the main brake lever reduces the travel of the main brake lever a fair bit.

Cheers
Your concerns of the stem safety seem to be the same as carbonfiberboys. I get the torque thing, but I'm really not concerned. And as far the safety levers, you're right. Panic stopping is not the best. But using the regular levers i could easily eject myself right over the bars. Braking there is pretty solid. At least on my bikes.

Bar end shifters on a C&V bike?!? Sacrilege!!!!! lol
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Old 09-03-19, 11:48 AM
  #110  
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Iíll admit your Fuji looks a little goofy with the tall stem, but it looks exactly like my bikes which I love. So hereís a vote from someone that has this same condition. I have less seat post exposed, but still a tall stem.

I commute by bike, about 15 miles per day, 5 days a week, 7 months per year. I put a premium on comfort. My bikes are comfortable - for me. You and I will be ridiculed for having poor flexibility by people that donít know us and have never met us, but theyíre wrong about me. I just happen to be in my comfort sweet spot with the bars no lower than my saddle.

I ride drop bars with bar end shifters because riding on the hoods is most comfortable for my wrists. Iíve tried various flat bar setups but never found the right one.

When I stand over the top tube of either bike (53 cm Velo Orange Campeur with 35mm tires, or my 1983 21Ē Trek 500) Iím pretty much scraping the top tube with my crotch. Any taller would be not so comfy.

For about 30 years I rode a larger frame, the next size larger in a vintage Trek. I could never stand over the bar at all - has to lift one leg or lay the bike over. I love that bike too, but it was not good for commuting as I got older, so I got the smaller Ď83 Trek. I shopped for new bikes before building the Velo Ornge but did not find the right combination of fit.

I also do do longer distance riding, 60-90 miles, and solo touring with gear.

Weíre all individuals and should ride the bikes we love.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:51 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
Your concerns of the stem safety seem to be the same as carbonfiberboys. I get the torque thing, but I'm really not concerned. And as far the safety levers, you're right. Panic stopping is not the best. But using the regular levers i could easily eject myself right over the bars. Braking there is pretty solid. At least on my bikes.

Bar end shifters on a C&V bike?!? Sacrilege!!!!! lol
Well, that's not really a C&V bike, is it? Not at all. It's not classic, just old. At this point it's just a tool. You want to really ride C&V, get a bike like I posted, set up exactly like that. It's a good ride. I did a 7 hour hilly century on my Legnano back in '64. Rode like a dream, full Campy.
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Old 09-03-19, 12:00 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
Your concerns of the stem safety seem to be the same as carbonfiberboys. I get the torque thing, but I'm really not concerned. And as far the safety levers, you're right. Panic stopping is not the best. But using the regular levers i could easily eject myself right over the bars. Braking there is pretty solid. At least on my bikes.

Bar end shifters on a C&V bike?!? Sacrilege!!!!! lol
Okay.

A lot of C&V bikes had bar-end shifters. It's a heck of a lot easier to reach a bar end shifter than it is to reach all t he way down to a downtube shifter when the handlebar is a tall as yours is.

The problem I've seen with those auxiliary brake levers is that people get used to modulating their speed or braking lightly with the auxiliary lever but in a panic stop situation they can't stop suddenly with the auxiliary brake lever. By the time they realize that and reach for the main brake lever it's too late.

YMMV Good luck, enjoy and cheers
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Old 09-03-19, 12:01 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Well, that's not really a C&V bike, is it? Not at all. It's not classic, just old. At this point it's just a tool. You want to really ride C&V, get a bike like I posted, set up exactly like that. It's a good ride. I did a 7 hour hilly century on my Legnano back in '64. Rode like a dream, full Campy.
That was a joke.

Trust me, I know what C&V is. I am one.


For the record, it seems nobody can ever agree on what makes a bike classic or vintage. Your guess is as good as mine.

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Old 09-03-19, 12:03 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Okay.

A lot of C&V bikes had bar-end shifters. It's a heck of a lot easier to reach a bar end shifter than it is to reach all t he way down to a downtube shifter when the handlebar is a tall as yours is.

The problem I've seen with those auxiliary brake levers is that people get used to modulating their speed or braking lightly with the auxiliary lever but in a panic stop situation they can't stop suddenly with the auxiliary brake lever. By the time they realize that and reach for the main brake lever it's too late.

YMMV Good luck, enjoy and cheers
Thanks Miele. Yes, I can see where reliance on those safety levers could be very bad. And I'm currently working on a bike with brifters, so I understand the convenience. It's all good.
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Old 09-03-19, 12:26 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by kross57 View Post
Thanks Miele. Yes, I can see where reliance on those safety levers could be very bad. And I'm currently working on a bike with brifters, so I understand the convenience. It's all good.
I'm glad you're aware of the possible safety issue with those auxiliary brake levers you have. When I worked at bicycle shops and we saw a bicycle come in with that style if auxiliary brake lever we pointed out the safety concerns and recommended that those levers be removed. There were some auxiliary brake levers made that actually went into the main brake lever instead of between the lever and the brake body like yours do. They were also thinker in the vertical plane than in the horizontal plane and those two differences made that other style of auxiliary lever a lot more positive and safer in a panic stop situation.

I think that when you put the Brifters on your bike that you'll REALLY enjoy it. Not only are Brifters more convenient to use but you'll probably find that you shift more often and that makes riding a lot more efficient and thus less tiring over long distances.

Cheers
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Old 09-03-19, 03:15 PM
  #116  
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Iím a big fan of modern brake levers (cables concealed under the bar tape). You may want to consider these. They are designed to mount higher on the curve of the drop compared to the vintage style lever, so that they form a more continuous surface with the ramp of the bars and make for comfortable hand placement. Theyíre also more functional to operate from the top side - except for really extreme braking you donít need to go to the drops if you prefer riding up top. They also look fine on a vintage bike.

Someone else mentioned bar end shifters which makes for a very nice setup and alternative to integrated brake/shifters. Brifters are even nicer but require more extensive drivetrain mods.

Last edited by ridesoldtrek; 09-03-19 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Clarifying
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Old 09-07-19, 12:56 PM
  #117  
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Not my bike, but for sale locally. The ad says ďframe too big, possible trade
for 49cm frameĒ. Maybe the seller has some idea what itís like to have weird body proportions. I would be willing to arrange a discussion with the seller via PM.

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Old 09-07-19, 01:02 PM
  #118  
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The photo is at a weird angle I think. Looks like French fit to me. Perfect for long rides at a medium pace.
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Old 09-07-19, 01:12 PM
  #119  
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Profile pic from sellerís Facebook page:

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Old 09-11-19, 11:39 AM
  #120  
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post pic of you standing over and sitting on bike
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Old 09-11-19, 03:15 PM
  #121  
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Actually, I think am built a lot like OP - 66.5" in height, 30.75" cycling inseam, 32" or 33" dress shirt sleeve length. I ride a 1973 English road frame, 21" (CTT, since it's English) seat tube, 22" (CTC) top tube, 11 cm Nitto Technomic stem, 73 degree angles, 700C x 28 tires. I weigh a lot more than you do, I think, at 207 lbs. I ride mainly on the ramps. I no longer need the extreme height of the Technomic stem, but I don't have a spare, and changing quill stems is an awful task and what I have is eminently usable. I love riding my bike.

I've got an inch clearance between my sensitive parts and the top tube. That seems to be enough clearance - I think that because I've come down hard in some emergency stops in recent months. I rode a 50 cm Gitane for several years, and I always felt cramped.

Every time I shopped for a bike (last time was late '80s and always for road bikes), salespeople put me on 21"/54CM frames. When I had a mini-fitting last year, the fitter said nothing about my frame's size. I'm within a CM for the Competitive Cyclists 'EDDY' fit.

Frankly, until now I've held back with this post, because I've thought the OP is crazy about his bike fit, and I don't see how saying that would further this discussion.

But actually there could be a number of very reasonable explanations for the differences in our perceptions:

1) One of us made measurement errors
2) OP likes to be more upright and less stretched out than I do
3) One of us is only telling himself that he's comfortable
4) Differences in arm or leg bone lengths
5) OP wants more clearance between him and the top tube than I do
6) etc., etc., etc.

It's interesting that we're so alike in significant measurements and want such different bikes, at least IMO.
philbob57 is offline  
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