EM42

normally this would be a non-story but a buyer called me up and was interested in my alloy rim upgraded and seat upgraded everything else stock R20 folding version.

buyer on the end of the line expressed dismay and wanted the fat heavy original steel rims that won't stop a rider when the weather was lightly damp !! basically explained steel/chromed rims are dangerous. he wanted all the parts to be original as stock.

he said he is a bike collector and has bought several folding bikes including a vintage german U-frame and some dutch bikes.

so we met and he bought the bike at my asking price $250 and asked about the original seat and told him the brooks vinyl seat was such in poor condition and rusted as the bike had been left outdoors originally.

After a few minutes of talking to him he said he owns a factory in china and the bike will be packaged and brought to china by him personally in a few days.

looks like he's not really a collector per-se but buying bikes to remanufacture or reverse enginner. he said they will manufacture or copy the Raleigh Twenty for the Chinese market.

I asked if he's going to use a modern hinge design and he said no, it will have the same hinge design and It will be made out of aluminum.

He said that there is a resurgence of cycling in china not for transportation but more for recreation. People in the city that lives in a small apartments and now can afford small cars and would like to bring bikes out of town to go cylcling for fun.

he also said the alloy rims that i put on the Raleigh twenty was cheap as in less than a dollar in china so he was not impressed!

hope you guys find this story amusing ...on another note well have another R20 Clone in the market soon not in the West probably as he said it will be for the Chinese market.

JosephLMonti

This is a great story, thanks for posting it. If you still have this guy's contact info (and don't mind), please find out what you can about the "New R20". Even though it won't be available in the U.S., it would still be nice to see it (online of course). Thanks again!

social suicide

My dad used to sing: It may be so, I just don't know, but it still sounds like bull$&*t to me..... Seems like there are plenty of cheap folders being made in china

EM42

I actually talked to this guy for over an hour and the story above is just a mere fraction of what information i've gathered. I did mention that to him theres plenty of folding bikes already
but he said chinese consumer now are becoming picky and this comes with rising income but bromptons are still far from their list. but style matters. he even disccused with me what colors he needs to finish and them and mentioned what name they might call them moving towards a western sounding bike name.

I told him if he's going to copy the R20 exactly as it is that he needs to bring the bottom bracket higher to prevent pedal strikes when using narrow[lower profile] tires and he was carefully listening to what i was saying. We discused about using iso451 tires and such and many other things...you were not there so you could say BS

zenith

That's an interesting story. I would like to see their version on the web when they release it.

geo8rge

Seems like a really an expensive way to get hold of a Raleigh, since you can buy them off ebay. If British bikes are what he wants, go to Britain, they got piles of them there. So the whole story seems screw balled to me.

EM42

he is a resident of Los Angeles for 16 years he lives and works in LA but travels to china to visit his factories
so how much time and plane fare does he need to spend to go to britain to buy a raleigh twenty

there were 3 postings of Raleigh twenty when he bought mine mine was the most expensive he wasn't fond of my alloy rim upgrade there was another R20 that was all original but missing some parts and only $100 he wasn't interested

he bought mine can you explain that screw up ?

Folding-Bikes

It might be true who knows? I am yet to see a China copy that is good, can you spot the fake iF Mode?






Juan

EM42

they already copied the IF ?

haven't seen one here is the US yet

Folding-Bikes

they "tried" but unfortunately for them they realised its not as simple as adding a generic hinge, so the copy cant be rolled (obviously) and no one wants to lift a full size bike when folded, its generally a very poor fake (like most fakes), check out the horrible visible welding..

Juan

folder fanatic

I find this development very interesting to say the least. Raleigh Twenty bicycles in all sorts of condition and original parts retention always cropped up on the Los Angeles area Craigslist, Ebay, and other sources (I located mine at a Estate Sale). I believe based on your description that he probably is more of a purist collector. He will ride this bike infrequently and more or less display it as a trophy, not as a usable bicycle.

While I did made a point to clean up and keep all the parts that came with mine, I did get rid of those awful steel rims and swapped my former Dahon's rear hub and a brand new front wheel. I think it makes the bike much more attractive and is far more safer.

But there are exceptions. With my newest West German made Jetstar bike's steel rims, I will have a new wheel built around a nice single speed Velosteel rear hub (which is made in the Czech Republic) later this month as the old hub is almost worn completely out. I plan to reused the same steel rim-very sturdy for the heavy 30-50 lb. loads that sometimes I place on the built in rear rack-with new stainless steel spokes as the new hub has a coaster brake so it does not matter. But the front wheel will be replaced with a already built aluminum rim/hub unit just like my Raleigh Twenty was earlier at a later date for better steering & braking. The Jetstar has a single front hand brake only.

EM42

Velosteel hubs are based on the old 1904 Ficthel & Sachs hubs when F&S went out of business the equipment was acquired by the Czech company which in turn continued production of these single speed hubs. I love all F&S hubs and I have several Duomatics, automatics, Several built and unbuilt Dreigangs and Single Speeds all spin very smooth on their bearing races and shifts extremely well compared to any Popular Sturmey Archers which are good hubs but are on the bottom of my list.

all my bromptons have the sachs 3 speed hub except for one that has an English made SA Sprinter 5 speed.

F&S name became Sachs/Huret then acquired by SRAM. the Velosteel will fit that bike well.

aluminum rim upgrade on front is a good idea it will brake better than the plated rim you have on it.

have you installed a pletscher twin leg kickstand on it yet ?

folder fanatic

Not yet as I have to pay for the wheel rebuild around the Velosteel hub planned for later this month-a priority as I am worried about possible complete rear brake failure at some point. I should have added the twin leg kickstand right after I bought it. The bike already has tipped over when I was forced to load it myself a few days ago. I took the bike to pick up the groceries. Usually the assistants drop the groceries bags into whatever you bring with you to roll the food home. For some reason, the attendant did not want to do this. He just pointed to the 2 bags (yet he load other people's cars with the food bags). The bike is really very easy to load providing someone places the bags into my panniers while I hold onto the bike to balance it. The bags are very heavy and I have to lift each one at a time using both hands. My sister and mother were very upset about this form of "bike prejudice" & encouraged me to go to the local bike shop. I took the bike over to my favorite bike shop. Josef looked it over and said the bike is fine, no major damage was done to the bike-except for the rear hub's glaring problem. He did place new hand grips on it at my request to replace the original ones that were badly damaged due to that clod. The bike is still excellent at what I bought if for and is well worth the money.

I am glad that you feel that this hub will fit my bike well.

EM42

ur welcome

when you mentioned about your load i was thinking you need a twin leg stand. Also you might want to have the rear wheel built with 13guage spokes a bit thicker than the normal 15 or 14 guage

if youre using the bike for loading groceries or cargo. The brompton I believe has a 13 or 12 guage spokes on the rear although not necessary on a small 349ISO wheel [called 16" in America] It was done to be absolutely strong and not a possibility of breaking a spoke unless a Train or bus runs over it !!


btw the smaller number equates to thicker diameter when it comes to measuring wire diameter so a 12guage is thicker than let say a 15ga. spoke

Im pretty sure that Josef at the flying pigeon will take good care of building you a proper wheel for that bike.

tmac100

Let us not get too carried away about predicting (or believing) what anyone will do in the future. Heck, many folks cannot even predict what they will be doing tomorrow... at least not with absolute certainty

Let the speculation end along with the blatant bulls**t. There is no knowing what the buyer of the OP's R20 will do with the bicycle. All else is merely bulls**t speculation.

Heck, let us all get away from the keyboard and get some real exercise - on our bicycle - and maybe dream what it would be like to ride on an authentic copy of an R20, or even on an original R20

folder fanatic

That is why Josef handles all my bikes concerns and mechanical issues now. His philosiphy of bike use and the bicycles/accessories he carries in his shop mirrors my own and many other non-recreational riders needs. In the future (after I pay off the new hub & wheel rebuild), I am looking at purchasing a simple steel frame bike trailer to haul loads on most-to-all my present bikes, not just the Jetstar. It will be far safer to ride even with the rather unpredictable traffic with the more than 10 or so pounds I really do prefer to carry on any given bike itself. Don't worry, the Jetstar will get a new dual leg stand at some point. This bike seems to "inherent" parts from both my Brompton & Raleigh Twenty. It's new pedals are the ones originally intended for the Brompton as a spare, later for the Raleigh Twenty's, own use (the Raleigh Twenty's pedals were practically brand new once I clean off almost 40 years of debris from them-so they stayed on). The Jetstar might receive the Giant brand twin leg kickstand from the Raleigh Twenty which is on that bike right now and the Raleigh Twenty will actually get the new Pletscher twin leg kickstand . We will see.

Thanks for the spokes gauge tip. Interestly enough, the topic is also discussed here on this Webpage about bush bikes for Africa and other third world areas. https://bicyclingaustralia.com.au/content/2010/06/phil-latz/bush-bikes (The Velosteel hub is on the recommended bike parts list0

You have to forgive me about the speculations and predictions I like to develop sometimes about people's activities and intents. I was unconsciously exercising what I was originally trained to do in college for the think tanks I was expected to join after graduation. As for riding bikes, I live a real dream by owning such an fantastic bike as my Raleigh Twenty is. No Chinese copy will ever do the originals justice (oh-oh, here I go with another speculation again!).

badmother

A trailer is what came to my mind when reading about your bike falling over. I am installing twolegged kickstands on all my major bikes, one by one. I am lucky to find decent ones locally at approx £7. Are you looking for a new one or a older one since the bike is older?

folder fanatic

And the two legged ones will be installed eventually on all my bikes except for the Brompton. It retails for 50 dollars here in the US. That is why I am a bit slow in installing it right away. I have to prioritize all my major bike purchases by dire need or importance. The bike trailer will be coming within the next 6 months. This will give me a chance to pick the best one for my own needs. Meanwhile the Jetstar can handle the load-especially after it's new rear wheel & hub. Providing the assistants simply drop the bags in the panniers while I hold the bike.

kraftwerk 

......manufacture or copy the Raleigh Twenty for the Chinese market, made of aluminum and exactly the same weight as the original steel frame. Amazing.

EM42

ur welcome

im posting a blog article about F&S automatic hub that Josef wrote about my bike that I sold to my Brother ...heres the blog article

this German bike had rusty steel rims and by the looks of it it was probably submerged is salt water swamps[got it from Florida]via ebay, I relaced both front/rear with alloys and these are 24" not 20" the bike does have a decal indicating it was registered in Wisconsin and now with its new owner in desert dry California.

https://flyingpigeon-la.com/2012/01/t...-folding-bike/

gate28

I don't know what is exactly so bad about the original steel rims? The front brake on a R20 is perfectly OK, and if you have a coaster brake what difference does it make? Aluminium anything feels like...aluminium! All one needs to really do to a R20 folder is to get a decent seat, maybe a longer seat post, new tyres and handgrips and pedals. And thats it. Those steel rims are fine.

Sirrus Rider

Steel rims don't stop very well when wet compared to Alloy.

EM42

+1

Alloy rims and Kool Stop Salmon so far the best or favorite Stopper for the Shopper[Twenty] !!

I'm guessing only less than 5% of Raleigh Twenty have coaster brakes

I have owned/sold about 12 to 15 of them over the years and I remember only one had a sturmey archer 3 speed that normally comes with them and this one had coaster brake and even at that they don't perform well and had some quirk. Check Sheldon Browns report on those he was not fond of them either.

for some that upgraded to single speed coaster it[braking] might work great. But theres just a few of them that converts to coasters. I had fitted one my Twenty with a Ficthel & Sachs Torpedo Boy 28H Single Speed and they are the smoothest best performing single speed coaster brake hub I've ever owned. The velosteel coaster is about the same because it was made to F&S standards and equipment.

The ride difference is also noticeable from Steel to Alloy rims the steel were way too heavy and way too wide and rusty inside. All that i've own looked awesome and great on the chrome outside but a rustbucket inside.

The first thing I do when I get an R20 is REMOVE the rusty steel rims and relace them with cheap readily available BMX alloys using the same spokes because i'm cheap in that way and none[of the spokes] had ever failed me so far not even one. they do stretch and needs re-truing but what wheel does not need maintenance.