Gyro

Here lies Jimmy Day
Died protecting his right of way
Now, Jim was right as the day is long
But he's just as dead as if he was wrong

GamblerGORD53

I don't doubt e-bikes are more dangerous. Adding speed without adding fork strength, what could possibly go wrong?? Pfffft
The riders are far more likely to be inexperienced, as said before. Far more reckless and oblivious to dangers. Far outriding the bikes ability to turn or stop.

Climb14er

I wear full gear, all the time. Most of my friends also. The idiots riding at unsafe speeds and in marginal conditions speeding, we call them... Organ Donors!

GamblerGORD53

Rather unfortunately, my city has just had an e-bike fatality on Jan. 4th. I believe it's the first, certainly not the last. I just figured out the e-bike part today.
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/driver-c...nton-1.5286344

>>> https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...r-old-man.html

work4bike

These e-bikes are not going away. So many advocates usually say, "Whatever get people out riding a bike", or something to that effect. However, most people I see nowadays aren't riding those bikes, they're using on them like scooters and going down the road at a speed much faster than they could otherwise do.

They're definitely NOT hammerin' pedals like shown in this pathetic commercial.

Robert C

I generally wear MC armour when I ride. I do find it a bit odd that when riding a motor scooter I don't armour up as much.

A quick comment about this guys videos, I watch a lot of them and he does put out a good production.

On to the point he was working on, even in the clips of e-bike accidents that he worked into the video, nearly all of the ee-bike accidents seem to be the result of illegal operation, no matter who was at fault. I know, speaking for my own commuting habits, it is easier to operate legally on an e-bike. This is in large part because it is relatively easy to get back up to speed. Or put more succinctly, I don't blow through stop signs on the e-bike.

Much as he stressed in the video, I would not want to see more regulation; however, I would love to see some standardized training programme available. As far as his point of not being seen, that is something that nearly all bicyclists have to deal with. The popularity of good rechargeable lights seems to help there, but some work needs to be done in convincing the casual riders to use them. I do think there is a difference in how pushbikes and e-bikes look from behind. A pushbike has a lot more side to side movement than an e-bike. This may be an issue in rear hits. Again, making it a habit to use better lights may help in this area.

Safety is an important issue. However, I am not going to go back to riding a motorcycle, or driving, every day.

exile

So a motorcycle YouTube channel thinks e-bikes are more dangerous and creates video? Here is the summary 1. First point is to wax poetic about motorcycle gear compared to the normal clothes he rides on his e-bike. Then cites one article about serious e-bike injuries resembling those of motorcycle injuries. Ends with some random clips of people on two wheels crashing (hard to tell if they are even on e-bikes).

2. Second point is visibility and how cars on roads look for other cars. Then shows clip of people passing a merge point on a road claiming the driver wasn't looking for cyclists. Claims he has been hit twice while riding a bicycle and cites one article where you are 3x more likely to be killed on a motorcycle. Cites a second article where you are 2x more likely to be hospitalized on an e-bike compared to a pedal bike. Shows clip of people jaywalking at night in dark clothing almost hit by a person on two wheels. Then suggests these two articles show that e-bikes are as dangerous as motorcycles. Finishes off his second point with three clips of people on two wheels doing dumb things.

3. Third point is sophistication. Motorcycles come with a lot of things and require years of training to operate whereas on a e-bike anybody 8-80 years of age rides 30 without even pedaling. Proceeds to show voiceover clip of people on two wheels. At least half of them doing dumb things. Have epiphany that anybody can do dumb things. Has diatribe about dangers of commuting by e-bikes compared to motorcycles. Surmises that if people are dumb and choose to ride an e-bike instead of motorcycle, they cannot criticize anybody on a motorcycle.

veganbikes

Falling pianos are more dangerous than E-bikes so is arsenic.

People are doing anything to hate on e-bikes these days. People are so stuck in the past it is hilarious. It is 2021 the bicycle has been around since at least the early 1800s we have had e-bikes since the late 1800s and actual viable options since the 1990s and they have become more widely available and popular in the U.S. in the past 10 years or so. No need to be such a fuddy-duddy about them these days.

Life is dangerous, but that is the fun of it. It keeps things interesting. If we all lived forever and there was no danger in life, we would all be miserable.

ted_major

I can’t speak for other jurisdictions, but in Alabama, it’s “training,” “testing,” and licensing. I have a motorcycle endorsement on my license, and all it required was skimming a “rules of the road” brochure and passing a short multiple-choice quiz when renewing my license. No education required, no road test. From a pragmatic point of view, I don’t think that system makes a licensed motorcyclist any more skilled or qualified than an unlicensed e-cyclist. (We also let 14-year-olds get a motorcycle license with only a written test.)

rydabent

Two things. Electric bikes are no where near as fast as motor cycles. And the energy goes up by the square of the speed.

blacknbluebikes 

1. they're modern mopeds, that's all. I never heard anyone calling a moped an ebike in the 80's, and no one seemed to care about them too much one way or the other. Meh.
2. the popularity is understandable, especially now that the rider isn't on a dorkey moped.
3. there are old riders and bold riders, but no old bold riders. give dr. darwin some time to cull the stupidistas.

JoeyBike

Many years ago (40ish) when I was into motorcycles I read a piece in a motorcycling magazine (before the Internet) that claimed "statistics" showed that 99% of all motorcycle crashes (fatal and not fatal but documented) happen to people in their first year riding motorcycles. Then 99% of the major crashes within that first year happen on the FIRST RIDE.

So if you survive the first ride, you got lucky. If you make it past one year, you likely have the ability to concentrate, ride defensively, and got lucky.

GamblerGORD53

I knew that stat from the start as well. Knew of several fatals on first ride, one girl never went a block, I think I remember.
My BIL had a motorcycle, so I got dumb and bought one too. Never did ride together after the learning bit, it was a 1976 yellow Honda 400 four. We did golf together, at damn 6:00 am.
The day before the driver's road test, I parked it at the BIL's apartment. Went there in the morning and couldn't start it. Gas was empty. LOL. So I did the test on his and passed easy. LOL. His was a 450 or 550 twin I think. My bike riding obviously helped a LOT.

My big problem was my hands going to sleep. Plus the noise, any temps not around sunny 75F and mud. The batteries sucked too, need a new one every spring, $60 bye. Only went 2,550 miles or so. Pffft.

merlinextraligh

It’s not the ebike, it’s the users. I don’t see any inherent safety problem with an e bike ridden by a competent cyclist exercising reasonable judgment.

However as the video pointed out your bike speed is limited by your legs. You can’t just hop on a bike and ride at ebike speeds without some training. So new cyclists tend to develop skills, bike specific judgment and experience as they acquire speed.

On the other side of the coin, I think the vast majority of motorcyclists have healthy respect for the inherent dangers of their activity and take care to ride safely.

A good number of new ebike riders appear to be very cavalier about the potential danger of their activity.

I think to some degree this problem is self correcting. As E bikes become more prevalent, more people are going to get killed and injured. , that should make the risks more apparent, and people should learn they need take their ebike commute seriously and learn good cycling and traffic skills

dmark 

Happens all too often on the Riverside MUP (Hudson Greenway NYC). Ebikes are my biggest worry.

rydabent

Again when you read the posts, this thread is little more than a vehicle for anti e-bike drivel. BTW I do not own an e-bike.

Sorg67

As I motorcyclist and cyclist, I have often considered the relative risk of the two. I have never considered the risk of an e bike. This was a useful discussion since I have been considering getting an e bike for my wife so we can ride together. She has a regular bike now and we are working on her bike skills. After looking at the video and reading the comments, I think we will make really sure her bike skills are solid before we think about an e bike. That may be never.

As an aside, motorcycle statistics are way worse than bicycle statistics. But, it is my belief that motorcycles are actually safer than bicycles, but that safety requires skills and good decisions. Motorcycles put you in greater control of your own safety. Not complete control. But being able to keep up with traffic is a big benefit IMO.

Riveting

What does ebike speed have to do with fork strength? I (as well as pro riders) ride standard road bikes 2-3 times as fast as any Class 2 ebike can go, yet my fork is a standard flimsy QR carbon.

dmark 

I grew up riding bicycles all over NYC, I drive and I rode motorcycles for many years. I think post #2 nailed it.

Sorg67

I also agree with those who say it is not that e bikes are inherently dangerous, it is the nature of the riders they attract. That is true of everything.

I consider myself to be safer on my motorcycle than on my bicycle even though motorcycle statistics are worse. Motorcycles put you in more control of the risk you take. Many unskilled foolish motorcycle riders drive up motorcycle accident, injury and death statistics. Skilled, sensible motorcycle riders can avoid a lot of risk. It is also possible to mitigate risk on a bicycle with skill and good decisions. But the inability to keep up with traffic produces some unavoidable risks.

Sport motorcycles have worse accident statistics than cruisers. That is not because sport bikes are inherently more dangerous than cruisers. But they attract reckless riders and they have characteristics that can magnify mistakes in unskilled hands. In skilled hands sport bikes are safer than cruisers. Better handling, better brakes, lighter weight and short stopping distance.

fooferdoggie 

the bikes weigh more. my e bike is a modest 52 ponds with nothing on it with my normal gear its 70 pounds. but my bike was designed to be a e bike by a bike company so it makes a difference. I ave seen people add motors to a bike. would not find safe without a motor.

Riveting

First bike speed was mentioned as a reason to strengthen a fork, and now the weight of the bike. Within reason, neither are important. An additional 30-40 lb. difference in rider/bike weight is nothing, assuming you weren't at the very high end of the weight limit in the first place. Someone can fluctuate their own body's weight by that easily, or with touring gear. You don't hear about people going out to buy a stiffer fork when they gain 30 lbs, do you?

bikebikebike

We call it ATGATT
All the gear , all the time
It's a hallmark of an experienced MSF trained rider.
Good training creates the social reinforcement of thinking safety.
Bad riding does the same for the contrary thinking

@ Riveting
I don't get a new fork to match my waistline, but if I am going 30 mph with a 50 lb bike,
I might rethink the stress issue, what with the mass times velocity thingy, exponential math and all.

Bicycle suspension, frame, wheels, tires and brakes are not designed for motorcycle level stress, handling, and safety .
There is an interesting piece on bike wheel spoke stress, where they put a bicycle wheel on a car to demonstrate strength.
Not something you would do on your daily driver.

Maybe I should get a better fork,
One with shorter tines.

Milton Keynes

I think there's a good point to be made. A lot of people with e-bikes are not experienced cyclists or motorcyclists, and they probably think, "It's just a bike" when they get on one, not understand the inherent dangers that cyclists and motorcyclists face or using due diligence and caution. That can get anyone into trouble quickly.

mcours2006

Legal ebikes are fine for most riders. I deem the cap of 32 kph quite safe as one could easily attain this speed going on a slight decline. My 13 y/o could hit this speed on his MTB going down the street. So, really, anyone who's operated a bike should be comfortable doing 32 km/h.

Removing the cap, well that's a different story. You'll void the warranty on your bike, first of all. It is no longer classified as an ebike, second of all, making it illegal on bike lanes, MUPs, and paths. Might as well just get a motorcycle.