Firedog91902

Powell,
You obviously don't understand power tool packs. The BMS inside Makita's only communicates, via the 7 pin yellow connector, with the charger. During discharge, on all the tools I know about and certainly my ebikes the only connection is directly to the 5s3p cell stack in the battery via the larger outside slots. It's absolutely no difference than your method of charging your 10 or 11s cells with an external charger, then connecting them directly to the E+ for a ride.


I'm not blaming EPLUS for anything. I just reporting my experiences with the E+. I get errors.....and there is no information, no documentation, no parts (at least that I can afford). That you have had no problems and love your bike is great. You may be one the few, since I don't see very many reporting success.

If you don't mind I'd like to get back to reporting my experience, for those who might have similar problems and might help them keep their bike running.

As I discussed above, I managed to open the hub with brute force since there is no documentation or any information on the web of how to do it properly. I didn't closely examine the controller board until today. I now see one of the mosfets is fried. Please don't blame me, It happens., It may be that this is the source of the Error 1 message and my problems. If that's the case, how would anyone diagnose this problem? If an external controller stopped working, I can find a blown mosfet in a minute and replace it in 30.

powell

BMS INSIDE power tool batteries has balancing leads PERMANENTLY connected to cells, you cannot disconnect those leads
those balancing leads connect to chip on BMS,
when you connect string whatever 11S, 12S cells you also connect those leads and chip to your EPLUS boards, how hard it is to understand it.
my conversion shows ONLY 11S cells in series , nothing more plus 2 pairs of wires from 2 different cells.
only way to use of power tool batteries is to disconnect any wires from cells.
it does not really matter what communicate with what.
so you say during discharge there is no any monitoring of cells inside power tool pack,????
open the pack and FOR SURE there are wires connected to each cell individually
dont forget that you must connected wires from 2 cells to upper Eplus BMS board
isolate those cells completely !!!

Firedog91902

I'm having a really hard time finding those 6 balancing leads to the 5s cell groups.



On my personal use battery I do add a 6 pin header to monitor the voltage of each 3p cell group. Trust me that never gets connected, in any way, to the E+ or any of my other ebikes.

That is absolutely correct. Anything else I can do to convince you?

kauaikit

Well....I read the ES post, and it's a shame you didn't figure an easy way to use the E+ hub and an outside controller. So, 20mph would just put me to sleep while riding as I need 28mph+ just as a starting point for level TS. My 'ol school TF's easily get that, and even a bit faster when going with a 11s/4p Tesla Mdl 3 21700 battery pack! :-)

The E+ I bought off of eBay is only a 20mph 750wattt version where as my other 2 are the 1000watt models.

So, if you have a dead E+, it still works by removing the battery boards from the front hub, install a 26" disc rim, and use your own lithium battery, right?

wrandyr

Powell, I think you are being a little harsh on Firedog. The E+ BMS is a delicate thing. I smoked one of the two hub BMSs I have trying to follow your path. No fault, no blame, I understood the risks. It is apparent that we are going to run out of E+ BMS boards long before we run out of the motors. If Firedog wants to work on finding another way to keep the motors going, I'm all for it. I appreciate the work both of you have done, and more importantly, shared, with the rest of us who don't have the technical skills to do it themselves.

By way of an update, I have gotten the power tool battery/E+ LiPo BMS combo to work long enough to go for a ride exactly once. It is turning out to be very hard to consistently spoof the BMS into believing the batter has any charge with a bunch of coin cells connected to the BMS battery sensors. I think it is always going to be too finicky to be practical.

powell

there are at minimum 4 black wires in your picture, cannot see in the back.
one black wire is main wire going to terminal but 3 other black wires are for what?
no 6 wires because your pack monitors group of cells.
no manufacturer of power tool battery would allow for not monitoring group of cells.
again 4 black wires - for what
cells are connected by metal strips already.

Firedog91902

Powell, at least for Makita batteries, you are wrong. You obviously have never opened and studied tool batteries, certainly not Makita's, but you are an "expert" not interested in learning what you already think you know and you express your "knowledge" in a very condescending manner.

Maiktas have heavy red and black wires connected directly from the ends of the 5s cell groups to the output terminal's of the battery. There is nothing except a 100amp fuse on the newer genuine Matika's to monitor discharge. Makita clones, and older genuine Makitas don't even have the fuse, but the positive tab is designed to melt if the battery is shorted. All the other circuitry is for safe charging and to refuse charging if a problem is detected. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

The heavy black wire, top right of the picture connects directly to the neg output of the battery. No relays, no mosfets....nothing but copper wire and solder. The small black wire next it to connects to the - of the LED voltmeter - (state of charge meter) . The other two black wires go from the + charging port to a thermal switch buried between the cells and then to the + of the 5s cell stack. If the cells get too hot, it stops charging. That's it.....no hidden wires on the other side.

Notice there is no monitoring of individual cells during charge or discharge. That's true of Makita clones and older genuine Makita batteries. Recent Makita batteries (when they started making 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0ah) now monitor individual cell voltages and may balance charge. Other than the fuse, they have no way to shut down a discharge. Newer tools have a LVC in the tool and will stop if the voltage get too low, but there is no BMS in the battery to do that function. IF you connect a load without a LVC or timer it will discharge until the battery voltage is zero.

I 've opened a few other brand batteries that look to have similar circuitry, but I would never pretend to be an expert on all tool batteries.

I've forgotten what this has to do with trying to keep my E+ on the road. Something about blaming tool batteries for errors. Does the E+ knows or care where 36v30a comes from? The designers of the E+ were USA Gods, so maybe.

Right now I'm going to let my E+ sit for a while. Nothing new. Fortunately, I have a stable of 10 varied single and tandem ebikes I've built with trouble free and great performance. Don't need 10 batteries, just one set mounts in seconds on which ever bike I choose to ride.

Firedog91902

My E+ is finally back on the road but without the original hub motor, display or wiring. My final attempt to salvage the original hub motor failed (hub with hall sensors and phase wires, controller removed.) My tester reports E+'s hub phase timing to be 60degrees; 120degrees is more common. Even with a controller designed for 60 degrees, starting was so jerky the bike couldn't be ridden below 10mph (over 10mph great). I got a lot of help and suggestions over at Endless Sphere, but using the E+'s motor with standard external controllers was not possible for me.

I ran out of patience never knowing when an error would pop up with the stock E+ . If I had more patience a couple thing I would have tried. (1) When I opened the hub, one of the 18 Mosfets was fried. I opened the hub because I couldn't clear error 2 (communication loss between motor and display). If there was a bad chip error message (or a way to test) I would have first tried changing the chip before giving up. (2) When I moved the charge boards to Lithium setup at least 2 the 6 of the "sense boards" must be connected otherwise the boards goes into charge mode. In addition to the 3 wires from the sense board to the charge board, the sense boards has +/- connected to 5 NiMH cells in series (5x1.2v=6v). I discovered by accident that it worked fine without the 6v connections. No issues during months of use, but perhaps the 6v is eventually necessary and the cause of some of the persistent errors.

My E+ is now powered by a TDCM Power48 rear hub motor from a Stromer ST1. The hub motor has a similar design to the E+'s with the controller inside the hub and I suspect the E+'s hub was built by TDCM. The controller in the ST1 was bad, so Stromer scrapped the whole motor/wheel (my cost $10). I removed the controller inside the ST1's hub and connected the phase and hall wires to a 30amp Ebikling external controller and a 54v battery. The bike has mounts for 6 Makita style batteries. Mounting 3 yields 54v10.5ah(567wh) capable of 30amps continuous. Mounting 6 doubles those numbers and more than doubles the range.

The ST1's motor has 120 degree timing and works flawlessly with every controllers I tested. It's a bit heavy but very quiet and powerful. Of course, any rear hub motor that fits E+'s drops could have been used. The Ebikling controller has a "legal"/"off road" mode switch. In the "legal" mode, the current is reduced if above 24mph but still delivers up to 1600w (on hills). About the same top speed as the stock 1000w E+, but a better climber. In the "off road" mode there is no limits. When I reached 40mph on the flat I decided to back off on the throttle. I installed a 60t front chain ring so I can pedal up to 32mph without spinning out. The Ebikling controller doesn't have a cruise function, so I installed a Crystalyte cruise module which is a joy to use and works with any controller.

A working E+ with a good lithium battery is a great ride. My new set up is much better. If something breaks, it's easy to find and cheap to fix. Best of luck to all who have working E+s. May they go forever. If not, the E+ has a great frame suitable even high powered newer kits. The very sturdy front suspension forks installing disc brakes allows the bike to double as a fine cargo hauler.




I got E+ charge boards, controller, display and throttle if anyone needs them.

kauaikit

Oh my......I've got three E+'s with the original front battery hubs in need of upgrades so to use any 36v battery source. I've around 2 hrs. north of you in S.Ca.. Maybe the parts you have can be used? What do you need for them? Kit

powell

Kauakit,
would you consider selling some EPLUS boards , I am very interested?
powell

powell

Firedog
here is diagram of Makita 18V pack, 15 cell, 5S3P just like yours you showed in post above.
can you see 4V tap wire connected to board?
it does NOT matter is for charging monitoring , bottom line it adds some electronics to my schematics of EPLUS conversion.
no way the board in your picture does not has any chips on it.
please, make more pictures of your board to convince me there is no any tapping wire.
or maybe you removed it by now ??? to late?
this 4V tap is essential to monitoring during charging.

wrandyr

It depends where the leads connect on the other side of the board. I'll bet there is a pair that connects directly to the cells.

I tend to agree with Firedog. E+ did a great job of making their gear hack-resistant. My experiments with an E+ LiPo controller have been the same. When it worked, it was great, but it mostly didn't work. When I settle on an alternative, you are welcome to my one remaining hub battery controller and any other parts you may want.

Firedog91902

Powell, nice diagram. Your diagram is correct for early Makita's and clones. It doesn't show that the load (E+'s charge board, another controller, or a even drill) is connected directly to the cell stack; no gates, not even a fuse on most. That is the case on all older Makita's and all clones I've seen. No, I'm not going to open a battery and take a picture to prove it.

Saying the 4volt, sub milliamp tap affects an E+'s electronics is like saying Amazon's data centers can sense or be messed up by some one plugging Christmas lights into the national grid. As long as the voltage is there, it doesn't care and can't sense or know what else is connected. Please explain how the 2 batteries (36v) using your diagram can possibly screw up an E+'s charge board.

BTW, what happen to "open the pack and FOR SURE there are wires connected to each cell individually"? Have you ever acknowledged a error?

Just for everyone else. Makita and clone battery's electronics do monitor the total voltage during discharge (other functions when on the charger). If it goes below a certain voltage it bricks the battery and won't let it charge again. For safety, can't charge; can't use.. Early Makitas and many current clones use the diagram Powel found with the single cell, 4v tap, to power that battery board. It's a simple way to get the lower voltage needed. Even though the 4v current draw is tiny, some users didn't use their battery for years and eventually the cells supplying the 4v die. Then you got a mess with the other, still charged cells, forcing electrons thru the already depleted cells during the next use. Later, Makita's and most newer clone's reduce 18V to 4V with a circuit, no tap, and eliminated that problem.

powell

the bottom line is simple:
without opening pack and absolutely making sure no any other electronics are connected to cells except 2 sense taps - you dont know what are you doing.
it all depends where is that 4V tap connected to, what is this chip?
also
we dont have exact schematics of EMS power board
BUT
you are wrong- you forgot about two sense voltage taps clearly shown on my schematics which must connect to upper processing EMS board,
just look at my schematics ,
again, my conversion schematics shows:
2 pairs of sense wires tapped into string of 11S cells , what if one of two sense wires are connected to 4V tap wire**********
where is this 4 V wire connected to what??
how did you get those taps, what if one of this tap is at 4V wire? and 4V wire connected to chip????

powell

wrandyr
Andy,
EPLUS drive generates ERRORs for the reasons.
and those errors must be looked at one at the time.
again
I will be very interested
in your EPLUS electronics.

wrandyr

@powell: I'll let you know when I have figured out what the replacement will be. It may take a while; I'm going to be pretty busy with other stuff for a few months.

powell

Hi
all EPLUS riders.
another milestone
I am 1 kilometer away from reaching 42 000 kilometers on my summer EPLUS.
I experienced several minor problems with my summer EPLUS.
ERROR 5 displayed couple of times on very, very cold days /near freezing temp/
problem was on power board of EPLUS BMS /lower board/ where NTC thermal switch is.
I placed jumper in place of thermal cut off switch years ago , however jumper was not soldered right resulting in jumper open.
this NTC thermal switch opens when temperature rises above 70C
chances that temperature around BMS electronics reaches 70C are zero.
so I simply shorted this switch.

almost 42 000 kilometers.

kauaikit

No.....thanks for the offer, but I don't sell any of my ebikes or part out. :-)

powell

to other EPLUS riders if any left, I am sure there still owners riding EPLUS.
my EPLUS 1000W is going strong
I reached almost 45 500 kilometers on my EPLUS.

almost 45500 kilomters

powell

I am here again.
millage on my EPLUS shows now over 48 000 kilometers,
here is the picture.

over 48000 kilometers

powell

it is winter time.
I has switched to winter EPLUS bike for riding.
time to improve on my summer EPLUS battery made of ChevyVolt cells.
as we know cathode is positive terminal during discharging and it is aluminum .
anode material is copper
aluminum oxidizes really fast during battery cell assembly, by the time I screwed cells terminals they are covered in thin, thin layer of oxidation - if you connect 11 cells in series this oxidation can add up to increased battery internal resistance.
so I spot soldered every cathode-anode , +/- , connection with special flux and lead-free solder, immediately after cutting corner of tabs.
here are the pictures of my battery inside - 11 cells in series , 11S , 2 subpacks , 6S and 5S .

powell

I am getting this thread out of third page , one of the most read thread on this forum.
just to let former EPLUS drive bikes owners know that my 2 EPLUS drive bikes are in working condition and doing well.

today is a great day - my summer EPLUS Biria frame bike reached 50 000 kilometers on the odometer!!
this "odometer" is actually famous Cycle Analist.
of course my 2 EPLUSEs had not be without problems. some minor problems.
why do I say "EPLUS drive bike"?
by EPLUS bike I understand one EPLUS bought from manufacturer - Electric Motion Systems.
by
EPLUS drive ebike I understand any ebike powered by EPLUS kit.

over 50 000 kilometers!!!

wrandyr

I have not been able to find a practical and reliable replacement for my hub battery, so I have reluctantly decided to abandon my E+ rig. I have accumulated a bunch of spare parts along the way, which I now offer to the readers of this thread. Please let me know if you are interested in anything by 23 May 2022, as I have to make room for other projects. I would be happy to supply additional details and/or photos to satisfy any curiosity. Powell has claimed the one working BMS board from the hub battery, which is probably the crown jewel. Here is the list of the remaining stuff:

[ ] Very tired hub battery, without BMS boards in Sunrims CR18 700C rim
[ ] Disassembled hub battery with bad BMS boards
[ ] 750W motor in 700c rim with disc brake torque arm & rotor
[ ] 750W motor with standard torque arm
[ ] 750W motor in Sunrims CR18 700c rim with disk brake torque arm and rotor
[ ] Complete wiring harness without brake levers
[ ] Complete wiring harness with brake levers
[ ] Wiring harness without throttle/brake segment
[ ] Thumb throttle with lead only
[ ] Brake levers without reed switches
[ ] 7-speed grip shifter
[ ] Misc Hirose connector parts
[ ] Battery connector cover (covers second battery connector of wiring harness)
[ ] LiPo battery enclosure & BMS board, thought to be good, but with no battery cells
[ ] LiPo battery charger
[ ] Usually working hub battery charger
[ ] Sometimes working hub battery charger
[ ] Dead hub battery charger
[ ] 3rd party 36V charger
[ ] 203mm disk rotor with E+ bolt pattern

My intent is to help keep any remaining E+ systems running, so everything is free, although I may ask for shipping costs for the big or heavy stuff. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

2old

Sorry to hear since it looks like both you and Metal Man have given up. I had a chance to purchase a non-working unit a couple of times, and glad I resisted.

powell

Andy
thank you for offering those parts
My summer EPLUS drive bike works wonderfully,
I fixed ERROR 5 issue weeks ago and my EPLUS works perfectly since then.
simply fix is to remove thermistor from power board , /it is marked TH1 on the board/ and solder jumper in its place
here ae the pictures