dtrain

I have a mostly 5700 bike (RD, FD, STIs, 10 speed cassette and chain). I've added 5800 brakes to replace Tektros. The 105 stuff is getting on in age and the shifters seem to take a fair amount of effort.

My other bike has full 5800 and I much prefer the STI and front shifting feel. However, I still have several 10 speed cassettes/chains and a fairly nice 10-speed wheelset.

I'm hearing I might be able to run 4700 STIs with 5800 RD + FD (which I have on hand, plus the 5800 calipers installed), with the 10-speed wheelset, cassettes, and chains I want to use up? Just thinking of an 'upgrade' that is less than full 5800 with new wheels (as this will still be a back-up, rain, commuter bike). Or maybe a new 5800 cable/housing set would help bring new life to the 5700 stuff?

Thanks in advance!

Andy_K 

According to Shimano's official compatibility charts the 4700 shifters aren't compatible with anything except the 4700 derailleurs. I can't imagine that isn't non-sense.

I would guess that the 4700 shifters would work with 5800 derailleurs. I'm not so sure that would give you what you're after though. I guess it depends on how much technology trickled down to the 4700 level. As a point of reference, I would note that while the 4600 shifters got the same brake cable pull as the 5700/6700 levers ("New Super SLR") they did it in a completely different way and the shifter internals were much more like the 5600/6600 series.

You could test ride a bike that has 4700 shifters and if you like the feel of that then give it a try.

cobba

Shimano's 10 speed road and 11 speed road aren't compatible, they use different cable pull ratios.

https://blog.artscyclery.com/science-...compatibility/

Jamminatrix

4700 uses the "new" geometry front derailleur, so you can use the 5800 front derailleur on 4700 shifters...however 11 and 10 speed rear are different cable pull/geometry, so you cannot mix the 4700/5800 rear shifter/derailleur.

As for your comment about "shifters seem to take a fair amount of effort", this is a sign of worn/old/dirty cables. Shifters with higher mileage just get 'sloppy', but they should not get 'heavier' in action.

jimc101

Having done plenty of distance on 67/5700 bikes, the FD especially does get heavier in use with age, new cables make a lot of difference has (for the OP, would be checking for any fraying at the hood insertion point). Never experienced sloppy shifters, as they have failed long before this point.

dsbrantjr

If you decide to replace the inner shift wires also consider installing new outer housings as well. The wires wear themselves into the housings and the new wires may not play well in the existing wear patterns.

CafeVelo

You guys are aware than next gen tiagra has a redesigned cable pull. It's longer, and the rear derailer looks an awful lot like a 5800, it has the terrible exit angle and everything.

dtrain

Yes, I understand that's true nearly across the board. But I think the new 4700 is now the exception. It uses ratios that more closely match the redesigned (11 speed) stuff; FD for example. So it's more likely to work with 5800 than 5700. The rear shifting is the larger mystery: likely a different cable pull from older 10 speed groups (like CafeVelo says)...but still 10 speed spacing which is different than 11.

Sounds like if I were to consider this, running a 4700 RD would be a safer bet.

dtrain

I've just been spoiled by the full 5800 on my nicer bike. It feels effortless in comparison (FD especially). I'm probably due for cables/housing on the 5700 (rain) bike anyway and I hear the newest polymer-coated stuff helps 'grease' some that tension/resistance in that first 'hidden cables' effort of Shimano (5700/6700/7900). So maybe that's step one.

But I also prefer the ergo feel of the 5800 STI hoods (and that FD action has me hooked). So I'm somewhat curious about 4700 STIs; or maybe 5800 STIs with 10 out of 11 cogs.

trailangel

^^You 'hear' a lot of stuff on the internet.
Why don't you post your sources?

dtrain

I don't know that I'd call these 'sources' - but here are a few posts and opinions of the polymer cables.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post17805866

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...l#post17765216

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post17682241

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post17506490

cale

It probably will work in your 10 out of 11 scenario. I ran R700 shifters (10 speed) with a 9-speed cassette for a couple years because I couldn't be bothered to buy yet another cassette. (I lost my 9-speed 6500 sifters to a telephone pole. Ouch!). The shifting wasn't optimal, a couple slow shifts up or down in the middle of the cassette which could be compensated for with a "strong" upshift (to a lower gear) and, on occasion, a double shift to drop to a higher gear with a click back to "settle" the shift.

It sounds more complicated than it is in practice. I have little doubt that the 4700 shifters could be "trained" to shift nicely with a 5800/6800 cassette.

dtrain

That's not quite what I meant. My intention would always be to match cassette and STI's. I'd run 4700 STIs with NOS 6600/5600 cassettes I have on my garage shelf. OR I'd run 5800 STI's with 10 cogs of a 5800 11-28 cassette (minus the 12t cog). The extra rear 'click' is made unavailable by the limit screws.

Jamminatrix

I did read they revised cable pitch of the rear derailleur, but overlooked the fact it likely won't work with other 10spd groups. This would come as a huge blow to old 4600 Tiagra users who want to upgrade piecemeal, and 5700 105 users who want ongoing support, since neither front nor rear STIs/derailleur will be cross-compatible.

I would be interested in trying the 4700 RD on an 11spd group, just out of curiosity.

dtrain

That's my understanding as well: that 4700 will not play well with previous 10 speed derailleurs. It is tickle-down from 5800/6800 (including most ratios) so has a better chance mixing with those...but it's an open question right now. I'm thinking a 4700 STI will move a 5800/6800/9000 RD one '10-speed' space rather than one 11-speed space. But I really can't confirm if that's accurate (thus the thread).

Andy_K 

So maybe I was wrong to think that Shimano's claim of 4700 shifters not being compatible with anything other than 4700 derailleurs was nonsense. I know Shimano has a history of taking a very narrow view on compatibility, but I forgot to account for the fact that they also have a history of introducing a proliferation of new standards for no apparent reason.

cale

If you run a 10-speed cassette with 4700 shifters and 5800 derailleur, you'll be applying the "new shifting" ratio to the old rear spacing. That should work but it's not the same as matching STIs to cassette.

If you run the 11-speed cassette (drop a cog) with 5800 STIs and 5800 derailleur. It's a sure thing. You could even grind off the "lips" on the 10 speed freehub and run all 11 speeds.

Edited to add: When I ran a 9-speed cassette with 10-speed shifters, I made the adjustment for the high gear as I always would and set the low gear to lock out the last "click". I prefer this to an "extra click" on the high end where I'm likely to shift down into a non-gear and make some silly assumption about where I am in my ratios. It not a major thing but some perspective.

dtrain

I understand the front - the whole derailleur (4700,5800,6800,9000) has a a longer arm/leverage such that a shorter throw of the (redesigned) STI does the trick. And it's quite nice.

It would seem that something similar, but smaller scale happened with the rear cable pull (5800,6800,9000). But how that would mix with 4700 (which may pull via the same ratio but a 10 speed 'amount') is a mystery.

dtrain

That's the heart of the question: does the 4700 apply new trickle-down shifting ratio to old (10 speed) spacing? If so, does it matter if I match it with a 4700 or a 5800 RD?

cale

You match to a 4700 derailleur if it will only continue as a 10-speed bike. You match to a 5800 derailleur if 11-speeds are in the future. At least, that's how I process it.

Andy_K 

This would be a bit of work, but you could resolve this issue by ordering the 4700 shifters and moving the 5800 rear derailleur you already have to the 10-speed bike. That would answer the question about compatibility and tell you if the 4700+5800 shifting is really better than the 5700+5700 shifting.

cale

I dropped a bunch of Shimano product shots into a composite image. Note that the perspective from which these shots were made is very uniform so in a very unscientific manner the position of the cable anchor bolt is a strong indicator of the articulation each one will provide. (I see the anchor bolt slightly behind the cage in the older series and aligned with the cage in the newer series.)

dtrain

It was a long shot...but I hoped maybe someone had tried and/or had an answer.

I'm pretty sure I'd like the shifting (at least the front) and the 4700 hood shape better than 5700 based on my experience with 5800 and 5700 groups.

TRi_Crinale

I have been reading BikeForums for a long time but never had a reason to join, but I was very curious on this question, so after finding this thread, I decided to find out for myself since it looks like no one else has tried yet. I work in a shop that sells Trek and we carry the Emonda ALR 4 (which comes stock with the full Tiagra 4700 grouppo). So I pulled the bike into the stand and installed a 6800 derailleur and it works! Beautifully! Even though I was using the Tiagra shifters, chain, and cassette, the Ultegra derailleur shifted quite a bit cleaner than the stock 4700 derailleur did. For the first time in a long time, as a mechanic, I am super happy about something Shimano changed! I have pictures and video on my phone that I'll upload and post here when I get home from work.

Andrew R Stewart 

TRi_crinale- Good work! Finally someone who does and not just talks. Andy.