the sci guy 

1987 Cilo bike with Mavic G40 wheels. The tires that came on it were 700x23 Continentals. I wanted to swap them for 28s. However the tires were so hard to remove I had to cut them off with a utility knife. Thankfully they were not a wire bead so I was able to. I'd never fought so hard in my life.
Putting on the new tires proved to be just as difficult. So much so apparently all the work I did with the tire levers cause multiple rub holes in both tubes (front and back) so I couldn't even inflate them. That, or I got 2 tubes that were already busted but I doubt it...

So 2 things -
Are foldable tires notoriously harder to fit onto a wheel than a normal wire-bead tire? (the new ones were Panaracer Pasalea Protite (foldable) and I've got Pasaleas on 2 other bikes (wire bead) and never had a problem.
OR
Are these rims actually 27" and not 700c? Is that why I had to literally fight tooth & nail to get them on and off? Once the tire was on it seemed like the right size, but man I have never had such a problem getting them on/off. I had to use 2 or 3 tire levels just to get it so I could get under it to get it back off. And putting it on required multiple reverse lever actions to get it to pop into the rim bead.
AND
Can i put 700x28 width tires on these rims (assuming they're 700c) if they are this narrow? I didn't think it was that much wider. It kinda seemed once I had the tube in there it was really narrow, but...?

I consulted Sheldon, and measured the circumference after I got the tires back off again and removed the 2 DOA tubes...
It's not exact exact but it looks to be a little less than 196cm (1960mm) - which according to Sheldon's chart says they should be 700c (~1954mm) because 27" circumference is closer to 1979mm which is quite a difference.



Thoughts? All I know is that I'd never be able to change a tire in the field like this.

Andrew R Stewart 

These rims don't have much of a dropped in center so tires tend to fit tight. And Conti has that rep already as well. So a worst case combo IMO.

These rims will fit up to (and beyond...) 32mm tires. The wider tires tend to fit easier too. But what might be the constraint is the tire/caliper/stay/blade clearances. You want a few mm's of gap at the minimum. Andy

shelbyfv

Kool Stop bead jack

KCT1986

The thickness of the rim tape may also be a hinderance if it has the old style cloth tape. Research here about some other thinner options. I've been using 2 layers of fiberglass reinforced strapping tape. Still testing how this will hold up at high (90-100 PSI) pressure. Some of my rims are older models and the thin tape does help with mounting.

Lots of options for taping a rim is now available, as well as opinions.

the sci guy 

Are foldable tires with their thick rubber bead harder to fit to wheels than traditional wire bead? I feel like the wire bead tires have a little more give?

all I know is I wasted 2 tubes because the levers definitely damaged them while I was fighting to get them on

Mr. 66

For very difficult tire mounts I will use some soap water, definitely helps get the bead over the edge.

reconnaissance

Murphy's oil soap is a very good tire lubricant, by the way.

Drew Eckhardt 

2 wraps of 1 mil Kapton tape totaling 0.005" versus 0.020" for velox. Finish at the valve stem instead of starting there.

the sci guy 

The depth of the rim tape doesn't matter a whole lot when I can't even get the tire around and onto the wheel. As I said, I have to use a tire lever multiple times just to get the first bead on so I can put the tube in. Then fully mounting the tire might as well need the jaws of life.
I mounted test mounted them on a spare set of wheels I had (SS wheels so I can't use them here) and they went on much easier, so it's definitely something about these rims I think. I ordered another set of regular wire beard tires to see if that helps at all....

And using soap or whatever isn't going to help a whole lot if I have to fix a flat 20 miles away from home...

70sSanO

I’ve used “MA”40, a not so distant cousin, for many years. I used VAR levers to mount the tires on those rims.

The modern equivalent of the VAR lever is the Kool Stop Tire Jack that has already been recommended. Go get one of those.

Folding tires might be a little tougher on initial install, but after that there doesn’t seem to be a problem.

John

Drew Eckhardt 

My MA40s were fine with Continental folding tires.

Drew Eckhardt 

0.015" is enough to make a huge difference getting the first bead over.

It's the difference between this thread cursing Continental tires on Kinlin XR300s which were the tightest rim I'd encountered before my powder coated Velocity Fusions.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...-mounting.html

and hand-mounting.

Lemond1985

What I used to call a tight fit for a tire BIDT, is nothing like the battles I've had with these latest folding tires (Panaracer Gravel Kings on any rim were the worst). I blame tubeless setups for manufacturers shrinking tire beads to the point of absurdity. My hands are still aching from the last battle, especially my thumbs.

I think I'm going back to wire beads, as I have never once needed a tire to fold for me to save space or whatever. * scoffs *

But OP, if it's any consolation, most tight tires will loosen on the rim .... eventually ... to some degree.

Mr. 66

Soap helps tight install no matter how far away from home. If you are really worried pack some in your road kit

63rickert

Mavic is notoriously difficult to mount. So is Continental. Panaracer I’ve had better luck, but some of this is down to luck.

Yes, thinner rim tape.

Slather the tire and tube liberally with talcum powder. Yes, it is a carcinogen. You will be using it for a couple minutes, very different from having it on a babies butt 24/7 for first years of life. It is a lubricant and works for this purpose way better than soap. Tire will seem to be 1/2” larger. A Panaracer will definitely grow with use and if you do not get a flat for a week or two will be much easier to deal with next time.

canklecat

Corn starch based body powder works fine. No need for talcum. I use Monkey Butt because it's what I had in the bathroom. It's corn starch plus a little calamine powder, so my wheels are itch-free after riding through poison ivy.

Thin, fairly stiff plastic rim strips and tape work, like the stuff from Schwalbe for high pressure tires. I'm using that on one wheelset, and a very similar red strip that I've had awhile -- the logo rubbed off, no idea what brand it was. Similar to the blue stuff from Schwalbe. I usually prefer Velox or similar cloth tape, but with some rim/tire combos it's too thick, so I use the heavy duty plastic stuff occasionally. It's not like those cheap rubber band rim strips. The Schwalbe and similar stuff provides better support over the spoke holes, so tubes don't extrude into the spoke holes and rupture.

Which Conti tires? Some are worse than others at resisting mounting. Continental Ultra Sport II are great values but darned near impossible to mount without a bead jack. And they don't loosen up with age and reuse.

Continental GP Classic skinwalls (700x25 only, no other sizes) are easier to mount, and easier to remount after a few rides. I didn't want to risk pinching my latex tubes when I mounted a new set of GP Classics on an older Mavic wheelset last week, so I first installed thick butyl tubes. After putting about 50-60 miles on the tires they loosened up and I was able to remount with latex tubes, no problems. It's not so much the bead loosening as the tire itself "relaxing" with use, and some of the rubber around the bead burnishing from mounting, so it gets easier with subsequent mountings.

Thomas15

I just replaced a Conti Ultra Sport II on the front of one of my bikes with a Gator Skin. The Ultra Sport was a bear to get on initially so I was dreading taking it off and installing the Gators but to my surprise the new tire went on fairly easy with just my bare hands. So I guess it all depends...

the sci guy 

FYI, both the regular wire bead tires and that kool-stop tire jack thingy arrived today. Will report back.

70sSanO

For me the key, whether you use the old VAR lever or the Tire Jack, is to mount as much of the tire with you hand or regular levers. The Tire Jack won’t work if you have 1/4 of the tire unmounted.

It’s the last section that will seat when you pull the bead up and over.

John

Jeff Wills

Under "other advantages": extremely thin making tire removal and installation a breeze
https://www.roxsince1987.com/p/rox-u...-rim-tape.html

Long ago I had a Moulton 17" tire mounted on a Sun M13 rim. With a cloth rim strip I could count on breaking a plastic tire lever each time I removed the tire. When I switched to a thinner plastic rim strip tire mounting was a breeze.

the sci guy 

Appreciate it - I may pick some of that up.

So, the new set of tires was marginally better to put on. Even just putting the first bead in to get the tire around the rim before putting the tube in is difficult - I still had to use a lever to pry the last part over the rim. Then I just dry-fit the the other bead without putting a tube in just to test and I definitely had to use that kool stop tool and it did work albeit still with some work.
Getting the tire started back off is also just incredibly hard. It's so tight. I almost never have to use 2 levers to remove tires but even locking one to the spoke barely provides enough gap to get another in to start sliding around the rim, and the bead just absolutely does not want to pop out. My knuckles and the spokes have a lot to say about.

Now, perhaps this because of the thicker rim tape holding onto the tires harder? I dunno. But I'm getting to the point where I want to run these wheels over with a steamroller just out of spite alone.

Mr. 66

If hands alone, or one lever is to tough I'll use two at the same time about 4-5 inches apart, and lock them both at the same time to the spokes. Then I can do the rest by hand, if there is still issue I'll put some garden/work gloves on to help with grip. With a little soap maybe.

Have you tried Ambrosio Elite rims yet? The Mavic are easy peasy in comparison.

KCT1986

It's not about the thick tape holding the tire. As has been mentioned many times, the tape thickness may make a big difference. Going from thicker tape to a thinner one will will shrink the wheel well, where you want the bead while seating the tire. It may seem like a small amount but realize that this along the whole circumference of the wheel.

the sci guy 

Any particular place I can order this from? Amazon came up blank.

Drew Eckhardt 

It's still nearly double what you need at 0.009" versus 0.0054" for two wraps of 1 mil Kapton.

I measured when I thought nothing could be tighter than Continential tires on Kinlin XR300s and discovered I was wrong.

https://www.quora.com/How-thick-are-bicycle-rim-tapes

1 mil Kapton tape is .0027" thick including adhesive and requires two wraps for road use totaling .0054" (0.14mm). That let me mount brand new 25mm Continental GP4000S tires on my Velocity Fusion rims without tools.

The adhesive is silicon based, not very strong, and leaves no residue. American Classic and Fun Stuff sell this for tubeless conversions after applying a 3-10X markup.

It comes 16mm wide for traditional width road rims

Gold Kapton Tape Polyimide High Temp 5/8" (16mm) x 36yds: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

and 19mm across for wide rims

1 Mil Kapton Tape (Polyimide), 3/4" x 36 yds: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

although as of 2014-04-24 ebay had better prices ($7.50 for two rolls shipped) than amazon.

Back of the envelope calculations suggest it runs under $1.50 a wheel - 8 from a $12 (including shipping) 36 yard roll at 156 inches each allowing for a couple inches overlap at the end.

Other alternatives include

Rim tapes (with adhesive):
Rox Ultralight: .009" (0.23mm)
Stan's: .0055" (0.14mm), two wraps needed for road pressure totaling 0.011" or 0.28mm.
Velox: .020-.021" (0.51 - 0.53mm)

Rim strips (without adhesive):
Zipp: .018" (0.46mm)
Ritchey Snap-On Rim Tape: .019" thick (0.48mm)

Tape not branded for bicycle use:
Scotch 898 Filament Tape: .0066" (0.17mm) with two wraps recommended totaling 0.0132" (0.34mm). Comes in 15 and 18mm widths.