Lance back in the News
12-09-18, 10:26 PM
#126
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“ … Armstrong defamed her as an alcoholic sleepabout …. ” Yeah … but so what? He called her an addled, drunkard ***** because it suited him. What gentleman wouldn’t do the same for someone who worked 18 hours a day to help him achieve his highest goals?
O’Reilly also says, “I don’t know if I’d have been able to cope if I focused on the negative attacks. I also tried to remember that the reason I spoke out was bigger than Lance ever was; people were dying and lives were being destroyed.”
So yeah, she never personally attacked Lance, but he personally and publicly attacked her. She acted for the greatest good and got thoroughly worked over by the media and by Lance.
And because she is an amazing, forgiving person with a giant heart … some propagandist wants us to believe that Lance is a good person.
Fact is, even his friend, Emma O’Reilly, admits that he was a massive dick who helped ruin her life.
She also happens to be a really big-hearted person who believes in forgiveness.
This article doesn’t prove that Lance is good. It proves he was indeed, a complete **** even to the people who cared for him most.
This article proves that Emma O’Reilly is a really good person.
Not surprised that certain posters didn’t pick up on that.
O’Reilly also says, “I don’t know if I’d have been able to cope if I focused on the negative attacks. I also tried to remember that the reason I spoke out was bigger than Lance ever was; people were dying and lives were being destroyed.”
So yeah, she never personally attacked Lance, but he personally and publicly attacked her. She acted for the greatest good and got thoroughly worked over by the media and by Lance.
And because she is an amazing, forgiving person with a giant heart … some propagandist wants us to believe that Lance is a good person.
Fact is, even his friend, Emma O’Reilly, admits that he was a massive dick who helped ruin her life.
She also happens to be a really big-hearted person who believes in forgiveness.
This article doesn’t prove that Lance is good. It proves he was indeed, a complete **** even to the people who cared for him most.
This article proves that Emma O’Reilly is a really good person.
Not surprised that certain posters didn’t pick up on that.
Last edited by BillyD; 12-12-18 at 02:25 PM.
12-10-18, 01:19 PM
#128
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I still think Lance is a god.
He played the game the same as everybody else. He just played it a lot further than anyone else. He played by the same (unofficial) rules as the next champion. It was afterall another team (Spain? I don't remember) that spilled the beans during some trash talk on an attack when he was racing clean.
People are haters because they can't face the music. It's their disappointment, their disillusionment talking. He was just more determined to keep pushing where others chickened out or backed off in the drug test arena. It really is as simple as that.
My understanding is, when you reach the highest, elitist, most fit physical condition you can be, EPO doesn't actually offer any advantages. Physiologically the room for gain just isn't there anymore. Maybe for mere mortals or CAT3, CAT2 racers it could help, but world class? They are already as good as their body can be.
He played the game the same as everybody else. He just played it a lot further than anyone else. He played by the same (unofficial) rules as the next champion. It was afterall another team (Spain? I don't remember) that spilled the beans during some trash talk on an attack when he was racing clean.
People are haters because they can't face the music. It's their disappointment, their disillusionment talking. He was just more determined to keep pushing where others chickened out or backed off in the drug test arena. It really is as simple as that.
My understanding is, when you reach the highest, elitist, most fit physical condition you can be, EPO doesn't actually offer any advantages. Physiologically the room for gain just isn't there anymore. Maybe for mere mortals or CAT3, CAT2 racers it could help, but world class? They are already as good as their body can be.
12-10-18, 01:21 PM
#129
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i have zero sympathy for him as a man. He ruined people's lives who were his friends, colleagues, business partners, teammates, etc.
I have a lot of admiration for his ability on a bike but without the doping he wouldn't have achieved quite as much against the competition he had in the day. I respect him for his crusade against cancer and live strong but ultimately he betrayed that organization and all the people that worked there.
Read tyler hamilton's book the secret race. Good read and gives you a better perspective inside lance's circle.
In the end, he got what he deserved and paid a heavy price. However, i really don't think he is truly sorry for what he did to people. I think that's just lance being lance. He's not a nice person and what he did was criminal.
I have a lot of admiration for his ability on a bike but without the doping he wouldn't have achieved quite as much against the competition he had in the day. I respect him for his crusade against cancer and live strong but ultimately he betrayed that organization and all the people that worked there.
Read tyler hamilton's book the secret race. Good read and gives you a better perspective inside lance's circle.
In the end, he got what he deserved and paid a heavy price. However, i really don't think he is truly sorry for what he did to people. I think that's just lance being lance. He's not a nice person and what he did was criminal.
+1
12-10-18, 05:34 PM
#130
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Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Race-I.../dp/034553042X
Then come back and explain to us why Tyler Hamilton is wrong when he describes the effects of doping had on his performance.
Then come back and explain to us why Tyler Hamilton is wrong when he describes the effects of doping had on his performance.
What Lance did was add more blood to himself. An extra pint or 2 meant his blood was under 1/8 less stress or could deliver 1/8 more oxygen/nutrients to his muscles & could take 1/8th more products of metabolism away.
Now his body had to process out that extra pint or 2, and that is a different discussion in term of human physiology. But nothing a healthy human couldn't sustain. But adding blood is a different animal than EPO even though for regular people the results are the same. More blood. For elite athletes, like Lance though, I always thought adding blood starts where EPO ends.
I am genuinely curious if there is a doctor or other medical professional here in this forum that could chime in. I'd actually like to know if my understanding is correct & if not, what nuance I missed.
12-10-18, 05:47 PM
#131
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He had raced prior to the cancer, but hadn't won the TDF.
If he had used the PEDs exclusively for post-cancer therapy, and then went off of them forever once he returned to racing, then I would have given him a "pass".
On the other hand, his association with Michele Ferrari apparently began even before the cancer diagnosis, and likely included PEDs very early, although not confirmed.
His charity was good, but, as much as anything highlighted his own hypocrisy.
If he had used the PEDs exclusively for post-cancer therapy, and then went off of them forever once he returned to racing, then I would have given him a "pass".
On the other hand, his association with Michele Ferrari apparently began even before the cancer diagnosis, and likely included PEDs very early, although not confirmed.
His charity was good, but, as much as anything highlighted his own hypocrisy.
How/why do you think he GOT cancer? Early on, everyone's favorite car doctor was just doping athletes up to high heaven...people had no clue the results of high dosages or long-term use.
12-10-18, 05:56 PM
#132
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With respect to the doping, it was not an even playing field. USPS had a far more thorough and effective doping program than other teams did. The idea that the effect of his (and other USPS riders) doping was effectively cancelled out by other teams' doping isn't true.
12-10-18, 06:20 PM
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DX38XZkulbw
As mad as this doping stuff gets me I still forgive the man now that it’s 2018. He paid a price and it’s time to move on. He was lucky with the investment he made in Uber. His podcasts are very good.
What do do you think ?
As mad as this doping stuff gets me I still forgive the man now that it’s 2018. He paid a price and it’s time to move on. He was lucky with the investment he made in Uber. His podcasts are very good.
What do do you think ?
I have no respect for him at all.
Cheers
12-10-18, 06:24 PM
#134
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To me, the worst thing I heard about Lance was how he treated JT Neal.
Short synopsis:
JT was described by Lance's mom as a "surrogate mother" to Lance. He supported him financially, gave him a place to stay and took him to many of his early races. Lance was essentially part of the Neal's family.
Both JT and Lance got cancer around the same time. Both recovered, but in JT's case it was temporary.
A few years later, JT's cancer came back and he needed to fly in to Austin for a week long bone marrow procedure. Lance agreed to pick him up at the airport and drive him around for the week.
JT's flight comes in, and Lance is nowhere to be seen. He'd stood up the man who had supported him for years, and a fellow cancer victim, because he got last minute tickets to a Wallflowers concert.
In addition, to The Secret Race, people should check out Cycle of Lies: The Fall of Lance Armstrong and Wheelmen: Lance Armstrong, the Tour de France, and the Greatest Sports Conspiracy Ever. Both go into greater detail about Lance the person, and the business behind him.
Short synopsis:
JT was described by Lance's mom as a "surrogate mother" to Lance. He supported him financially, gave him a place to stay and took him to many of his early races. Lance was essentially part of the Neal's family.
Both JT and Lance got cancer around the same time. Both recovered, but in JT's case it was temporary.
A few years later, JT's cancer came back and he needed to fly in to Austin for a week long bone marrow procedure. Lance agreed to pick him up at the airport and drive him around for the week.
JT's flight comes in, and Lance is nowhere to be seen. He'd stood up the man who had supported him for years, and a fellow cancer victim, because he got last minute tickets to a Wallflowers concert.
In addition, to The Secret Race, people should check out Cycle of Lies: The Fall of Lance Armstrong and Wheelmen: Lance Armstrong, the Tour de France, and the Greatest Sports Conspiracy Ever. Both go into greater detail about Lance the person, and the business behind him.
12-10-18, 06:30 PM
#135
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If my understanding is wrong, I'll be the first to admit that I am about to learn a new thing. Having said that: My understanding is that EPO is a hormone excreted by the kidneys that tells the body to make more blood. This increases the blood amount in people. My understanding is there is a limit to how effective it is. At some point there just isn't room in your body for more. At that point no additional amount of hormone is going to have the desired result. The body becomes non-responsive to it in the same way a diabetic may stop responding to insulin. You can get there by 2 ways. Driving your kidneys to make it through an elite training program until you obtain peak physical fitness, at the same time as also being in top form. The other way is to add it to your body in some way. Either way, when peak fitness/form is reached, the additional hormone ceases to have the desired result.
What Lance did was add more blood to himself. An extra pint or 2 meant his blood was under 1/8 less stress or could deliver 1/8 more oxygen/nutrients to his muscles & could take 1/8th more products of metabolism away.
Now his body had to process out that extra pint or 2, and that is a different discussion in term of human physiology. But nothing a healthy human couldn't sustain. But adding blood is a different animal than EPO even though for regular people the results are the same. More blood. For elite athletes, like Lance though, I always thought adding blood starts where EPO ends.
I am genuinely curious if there is a doctor or other medical professional here in this forum that could chime in. I'd actually like to know if my understanding is correct & if not, what nuance I missed.
What Lance did was add more blood to himself. An extra pint or 2 meant his blood was under 1/8 less stress or could deliver 1/8 more oxygen/nutrients to his muscles & could take 1/8th more products of metabolism away.
Now his body had to process out that extra pint or 2, and that is a different discussion in term of human physiology. But nothing a healthy human couldn't sustain. But adding blood is a different animal than EPO even though for regular people the results are the same. More blood. For elite athletes, like Lance though, I always thought adding blood starts where EPO ends.
I am genuinely curious if there is a doctor or other medical professional here in this forum that could chime in. I'd actually like to know if my understanding is correct & if not, what nuance I missed.
TL/DR, while individual crit is finely tuned by a number of gradually-acting regulatory mechanisms, including the production of endogenous EPO, exogenous EPO blows right through these mechanisms and can push crit to dangerous, even life-threatening, levels. You can pack the blood with oxygen-carrying erythrocytes, increasing the blood's O2-carrying capacity all the while, until the blood becomes so viscous that the cardiovascular system can't push it around efficiently.
Last edited by Litespud; 12-10-18 at 06:34 PM.
12-10-18, 08:53 PM
#136
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Everyone has an individual hematocrit level, which is regulated by a number of gradually-acting mechanisms, including production of endogenous EPO. This crit% can be tweaked upward by training methods, such as "sleep high, train low" or altitude tents, and crit% decreases over the course of a multistage event like the Tour. It was this decrease over time that riders were combatting by taking exogenous EPO or by blood bagging - usually during the rest days, if Hamilton is to be believed. When the UCI finally acknowledged the use of EPO, and before there was a specific test, they instituted a 50% crit limit, which, if exceeded, indicated presumptive EPO use and disqualification/suspension. The only way around this limit was to provide long-term documentary evidence of a naturally elevated crit. The USPS riders were able to use EPO dosing to tweak their crit levels exquisitely close to that magic 50% level, coming in literally at 49.5% or even 49.9% - that was the level of control they (or rather Ferrari) could achieve with a disciplined EPO program. However, in the early days of EPO use, when riders were essentially using it with impunity, there was a rash of otherwise healthy young riders dying of heart failure in their sleep, as a result of their crit levels being so high as to turn their blood to sludge. There were stories of riders setting their alarms to wake every two hours to put in time on the trainer, to move the sludge around and avert the fate of other EPO users. Bjarne Riis, the '96 Tour winner, was known as "Mr 60%", because of his high crit (almost certainly EPO-mediated, but never proven).
TL/DR, while individual crit is finely tuned by a number of gradually-acting regulatory mechanisms, including the production of endogenous EPO, exogenous EPO blows right through these mechanisms and can push crit to dangerous, even life-threatening, levels. You can pack the blood with oxygen-carrying erythrocytes, increasing the blood's O2-carrying capacity all the while, until the blood becomes so viscous that the cardiovascular system can't push it around efficiently.
TL/DR, while individual crit is finely tuned by a number of gradually-acting regulatory mechanisms, including the production of endogenous EPO, exogenous EPO blows right through these mechanisms and can push crit to dangerous, even life-threatening, levels. You can pack the blood with oxygen-carrying erythrocytes, increasing the blood's O2-carrying capacity all the while, until the blood becomes so viscous that the cardiovascular system can't push it around efficiently.
12-10-18, 10:00 PM
#138
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Blood doping, according to wiki, goes back pretty far and although it was outlawed the year Greg Lemond won the TdF in 1986, it has as we know been going since then...
Blood doping started in the late 1960s but was not outlawed until 1986.[37] While it was still legal, it was commonly used by middle and long-distance runners. The first known case of blood doping occurred at the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow as Kaarlo Maaninka was transfused with two pints of blood before winning medals in the 5 and 10 kilometer track races, though this was not against the rules at the time.[38] Cyclist Joop Zoetemelk admitted to receiving blood transfusions during the 1976 Tour de France, where he finished second, although he claimed that these were intended to treat his anaemia rather than enhance his performance... (wiki)
Would it even be possible to determine if an athlete used blood doping in training, even if not in the actual event, which I imagine would provide an advantage.
Blood doping started in the late 1960s but was not outlawed until 1986.[37] While it was still legal, it was commonly used by middle and long-distance runners. The first known case of blood doping occurred at the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow as Kaarlo Maaninka was transfused with two pints of blood before winning medals in the 5 and 10 kilometer track races, though this was not against the rules at the time.[38] Cyclist Joop Zoetemelk admitted to receiving blood transfusions during the 1976 Tour de France, where he finished second, although he claimed that these were intended to treat his anaemia rather than enhance his performance... (wiki)
12-10-18, 10:25 PM
#139
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the history of professional cycling shows that denying the use of blood doping long precedes LA and even Greg Lemond., e.g.,
That, more or less, is the story of blood doping in the 1970s. A lot of speculation – some well founded, some not so well – and a few confessions that don't really shock. Through the eighties the veil of secrecy surrounding the use of transfusions would be pushed aside and we would learn a lot, lot more about their use.
A history on the use of blood transfusions in cycling | Cyclingnews.com
That, more or less, is the story of blood doping in the 1970s. A lot of speculation – some well founded, some not so well – and a few confessions that don't really shock. Through the eighties the veil of secrecy surrounding the use of transfusions would be pushed aside and we would learn a lot, lot more about their use.
A history on the use of blood transfusions in cycling | Cyclingnews.com
12-10-18, 10:37 PM
#140
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You'd think anyone familiar with the rigors of the sport would appreciate the accomplishments enough to give the devil his due, especially when you consider that the more you look into it and the hate an rage, faulty logic and haughty hypocrisy, the example of Lance Armstrong is less like the devil more like Jesus paying for the sins of all professional cyclists.
12-10-18, 11:43 PM
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https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...s-8577491.html
He was caught for using corticosteroids in 1999. I'm not sure why those are, or were even on the banned list. But, he was able to obtain a TUE (post adverse test?) for the corticosteroids.
His 1999 samples were re-tested in 2005, and returned adverse findings for EPO.
This likely ultimately brought him down, but he wasn't banned, probably due to the 6 years post race, and issues with handling samples and testing procedures.
12-11-18, 12:57 AM
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You'd think anyone familiar with the rigors of the sport would appreciate the accomplishments enough to give the devil his due, especially when you consider that the more you look into it and the hate an rage, faulty logic and haughty hypocrisy, the example of Lance Armstrong is less like the devil more like Jesus paying for the sins of all professional cyclists.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 12-11-18 at 01:14 AM.
12-11-18, 01:47 AM
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What was Armstrong's cocktail? HGH? EPO (likely). Testosterone or Androgens/Anabolic Steroids?
It is hard to say whether some of the risks are causing cancer vs making existing cancer worse.
12-11-18, 03:58 AM
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I'm seeing reports that Lance was diagnosed with embryonal carcinoma (testicular).
What was Armstrong's cocktail? HGH? EPO (likely). Testosterone or Androgens/Anabolic Steroids?
It is hard to say whether some of the risks are causing cancer vs making existing cancer worse.
What was Armstrong's cocktail? HGH? EPO (likely). Testosterone or Androgens/Anabolic Steroids?
It is hard to say whether some of the risks are causing cancer vs making existing cancer worse.
But yes, he took a number of drugs including testosterone. Not sure if that is related to testicular cancer or that was just unhappy chance and ill fortune. I Think he took HGH and I am sure EPO .... During the conversation he had with a doctor in front of Betsy Andreu and one other witness in some Midwest hospital in like ... 1993? he mentioned what he had used. Not hard to look up. I might later.
12-11-18, 05:38 AM
#145
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12-11-18, 05:50 AM
#146
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You'd think anyone familiar with the rigors of the sport would appreciate the accomplishments enough to give the devil his due, especially when you consider that the more you look into it and the hate an rage, faulty logic and haughty hypocrisy, the example of Lance Armstrong is less like the devil more like Jesus paying for the sins of all professional cyclists.
I guess the fact he engaged in tactics of personal destruction in order to protect his lies is going over your head.. I forget the part of the Gospels where Jesus did that, care to enlighten us?
All he proved was he was bestest cheater, and he committed multiple felonies with actual victims to try to hide that.
12-11-18, 05:52 AM
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Excellent winter fodder thread. Here's how I look at it, I don't really care that he was doping as others were as well. What I care about is his rabid defense of himself. There was a lot of money on the line and he acted like a thug. Pretty simple. If he had kept quiet or downplayed or anything but crazy character assassinations and mafia intimidation tactics then I might be more receptive to not completely wiping his cycling record.
Lance's problem is he's a good athlete, but hyper competitive. He allowed all of the intensity of the racing moment to spill over into real life, like a hot head. I've met a few people that remind me of Lance but aren't athletes, people that are just really intense about the game of life and develop a scorched Earth philosophy. Something that would have been an evolutionary asset a few millennia ago, a mental shift from seeing your "fellow man" to "competitors for limited resources".
Ironically my class read Lance's autobiography our senior year of high school, and a few years after graduating my friend developed testicular cancer. Without reading that book I think he would've let it go on much longer without treatment.
Lance's problem is he's a good athlete, but hyper competitive. He allowed all of the intensity of the racing moment to spill over into real life, like a hot head. I've met a few people that remind me of Lance but aren't athletes, people that are just really intense about the game of life and develop a scorched Earth philosophy. Something that would have been an evolutionary asset a few millennia ago, a mental shift from seeing your "fellow man" to "competitors for limited resources".
Ironically my class read Lance's autobiography our senior year of high school, and a few years after graduating my friend developed testicular cancer. Without reading that book I think he would've let it go on much longer without treatment.
12-11-18, 05:57 AM
#148
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Lance was also known to ask for financial concessions to rider salaries while out of practice rides. I’m surprized nobody beat him up on one of these wonderful rides.
Hincapie is a true piece of excrement. He doped the entire time. Never really got in trouble and made millions.
Hincapie is a true piece of excrement. He doped the entire time. Never really got in trouble and made millions.
12-11-18, 06:36 AM
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Lance was also known to ask for financial concessions to rider salaries while out of practice rides. I’m surprized nobody beat him up on one of these wonderful rides.
Hincapie is a true piece of excrement. He doped the entire time. Never really got in trouble and made millions.
Hincapie is a true piece of excrement. He doped the entire time. Never really got in trouble and made millions.
12-11-18, 10:06 AM
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Maybe they should have a cycling team. They could go through all the patents regarding bicycle design and steal all the good ideas to make bicycles faster.