garciawork

Understood. I one day would love to have the resources to conduct my own testing! As I said, my opinion was based on my experience, but I also know that EVERYONE has a different goal in mind with what they are after in a bike. I did a ride around Tahoe with TIT (Team in Training, unfortunate acronym), on my lovely custom steel bike, with a friend on a gorgeous Ti bike. No one noticed. Those riders, while in great shape, didn't care about all that. It was a mix of lower level Specialized and Trek carbon bikes, that were great bikes, and did exactly what the riders wanted. I doubt they would have noticed the difference on a Lynksey, custom steel, Seven, Moots, or whatever. They loved their bikes, loved how they rode, and that is really all that matters.

But... at the end of the day, I will take my Mikkelsen, Lynskey, or whatever I have. YMMY!

rpenmanparker 

Carbon doesn't feel dead to me. I've been riding 531, Ti, bonded Al and CF since the early '80s, and I have no idea what that descriptor even means. My current CF, Workswell Chinese R-066, feels as lively as any steel bike I have ever owned. Not quite as comfortable as some, but as lively.

noodle soup

Carbon fiber dosen't transmit road buzz the way all metal frames do(like a tuning fork), so some people describe the muted feel as dead.

rpenmanparker 

Oh yeah, okay. After reconsidering, I guess I have to say I really do miss that road buzz.

quicktrigger

Your Escape 1 is an excellent bike, and well suited to what is designed for. I bought a Specilized Sirrus sport when I got back into cycling, which is very similar to your Giant. Still love that bike, and ride it. But like anything else, allot of this comes down to wanting something different, or a particular characteristic, or some status. And of course there are multitudes of companies to fill those niches. I have a friend with a $5k stereo in his car. Not worth it to me, but he loves it. Some love a custom for them bike, others don't care. I currently have 4 bikes, all for their own reason, if for no other reason that I wanted it and could afford it at the time.

garciawork

I suppose everyone feels different things when they ride, and I can't say another persons perception is less valid than mine, although they are certainly different. It is hard to describe what that "dead" feeling is, but I have felt it on every carbon frame. And it isn't the lack of road buzz as noodle soup suggested, in fact it has little to do with the way the bike deals with forces vertically. Both Tarmacs I had did a great job of smoothing out the ride, and were stiff, but the way they responded to forces laterally just didn't feel as good to me after riding steel, and then Ti.

It should probably be noted that I was only 150 lbs at the time, and was a distance runner in high school, so I will likely never have massive amounts of sprinting power, and the slight lateral flex/spring that I love so much wouldn't feel right to a powerful rider. I know a guy that has snapped an S Works frame, and can make the rear wheel rub on anything he rides. Metal.... not for him. Climbing, also not for him.

For me, my riding, and my preference, that barely noticeable spring that metal has feels right to me, rather than the dead feeling carbon has under a similar effort. I guess it feels as if carbon doesn't really want to return the same way steel or Ti does. I doubt if it has the slightest effect on speed or anything, but it does impact the feel of the ride, to me.

rpenmanparker 

Maybe it isn't about return but rather about not moving in the first place.

noodle soup

Shhhh. You'll just confuse him.

garciawork

Or, possibly, I like having a bit of give laterally. As I said, I have ridden stuff cf frames, and I did not like the way they felt compared to steel or ti.

lightspree

Apparently carbon has been used for leaf springs in trucks (and can work well there, better than steel).

So maybe carbon could give a springy ride if designed or engineered for that. But the designers aim for maximum power transmission/minimal flex.

So that's what we get to ride and experience....

MikeyBoyAz

I think some of the manufacturers have taken advantage of this too with extremely thin and flat seat stays. Cervelo? and another one I can't think of at the moment.

MZilliox

My ericksen Ti cross bike is a game changer. My next roadie will be Ti as well. I am a steel lover, but i am now a ti convert for my daily riders. the ride is dreamlike

lightspree

Don't listen. He's a shill for the titanium industry!

Jarrett2

I know exactly what you are talking about. Each frame material I've ridden has a "baseline" feel between various brands and models. Some carbon bikes feel better to me than others, but they all feel like carbon bikes. Same with steel, aluminum and titanium.

Maybe surprising to some, carbon fiber is probably my second favorite frame material followed by titanium and aluminum based on the various models of each that I've owned and/or ridden. If I could find a titanium bike that rode like steel, I'd buy it and make it my main ride. Unfortunately, I suspect it doesn't exist.

MZilliox

Haha, 5 steel bikes and one Ti, but I sure do enjoy that Ti ride. don't prefer the naked Ti look though, I still love a good paint job and sexy lugs

lightspree

In some stainless frames, the welds and areas near the welds are apparently more susceptible to corrosion. You can see it in the pictures above, of the rusting frame.

Not sure if this applies to welded 953, but I believe it does.

Not sure if this applies to lugged 953. It may not.

It would be interesting to find out.

marcoguzm

Linskey Premier 56 cm

Steel bikes last a long time, I've got a Breezer Jet Stream '94, and a Norco Team Issue '96, both with Ritchey Logic tubing, and they still are very pleasant to ride, both of them. In 2003, I got an Iron Horse Victory, Scandium tubing, very light at that year, nice to ride. This summer, I wanted to change the 53/39 crankset for a 46/30 one...and the LBS discovered that the seat tube was cracked! So, I couldn't make what I had planned.

I was looking for a frame, Soma was a very good option, and the Ritchey Logic Road frame too. I don't want to have another aluminum bike...and knowing that carbon frames have fatigue issues, I would avoid them too. I saw an interesting offer by Linskey, and decided to go that way...I had always wanted to have a Ti bike...but they were so expensive in the past. I got the Linskey Premier Road frameset, with an Enve 2.0 fork. To build the bike I used many of the old Iron Horse components, and some new ones I had bought for it. I built the bike by myself, a very hard task since I don't have many mechanical skills. But finally, I could do it. I'm happy with the outcome.

sumgy

Yes

bruce19

It's been a long time since I had a TI bike and it was a LeMond triple crank. The past 4 yrs my go to bike has been this Guru Sidero (steel) w/SRAM Red and Mavic Ksyrium Elite USTs. It weighs 17 lb 11 oz with just Speedplay Zeros. I love this bike.

terrymorse 

That’s a myth. Steel never softens.

If a steel frame suddenly feels soft, it has developed a crack somewhere and is about to break. Stop riding it.

terrymorse 

The reason why you don’t see Ti and steel frames in shops is because carbon fiber is a superior material for bike frames than any metal.

Chi_Z

i have seem plenty of Ti bikes breaking apart from the joints, they do not last forever. Depends on the groupset and wheelset you are building, the frame cost might be only fraction of the total bike cost so just get the latest carbon goodie from big name brands and be prepared to replace the frame or fork then they break.

Doge

Annealed steel can get softer with use.

Italian builders regularly used brass braze liquid above ~1600F on variants of 4130 Chrome-Moly (Columbus SL and SP) tubing.
4130 softens / anneals around as low as 1,300 but 1,525 is a number I see often (1575F suggested here https://www.astmsteel.com/product/41...4-7218-scm430/ ).

The bike would be painted with a slightly annealed softer joints. They did not go through tempering or hardening.
That is why they had a dampening feel the American builders didn't get with the Easy Flow 45 Silver which would flow around 1150F.
They road better - then they would get softer and eventually crack.

"It is important to realize that fatigue cycles are accumulative." from https://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_en..._in_metals.htm

noodle soup

High end steel, titanium, and carbon fiber framesets are all pricey.

Low end steel is heavy

Low end Ti is usually a little flexy

Low end CF is a really good value, because it's lighter than either Steel or Ti, and it's easy to tune the ride characteristics.

terrymorse 

No, it can't get softer with use. Annealing steel can make it more ductile (softer), but its ductility won't increase over time.

If you put annealed metal through cyclic stresses (such as riding a steel-framed bicycle), the metal will become less soft. This is called "work hardening".

Work hardening, alloying, and annealing

They would crack because the annealed joints were weaker when they were made. The joints were soft when they were built, they didn't become soft with use.

EDIT: As was the case with many kooky bicycle myths, Jobst Brandt had some pithy comments to share on this one:

And in response to the question of why the softening of frames wasn't covered in the FAQ: