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Shimano 10 sp downtube shifter cable pull too high

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Shimano 10 sp downtube shifter cable pull too high

Old 06-23-19, 06:47 PM
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nazcalines
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Shimano 10 sp downtube shifter cable pull too high

I've been having a heck of a time trying to get a shimano 10 speed downtube shifter to mate up with a dura ace 7800 rear short cage derailleur, 11-36 xt cassette, and wolftooth roadlink. If I had the indexing working correctly, it wouldn't shift into the 36t cog unless the L limit was dangerously far out, with a good chance of the chain going into the spokes. If I put the L limit about where it should be, I the indexing in the smaller cogs would be terrible.


Finally I actually measured the cable pull and got 22mm over the full range, or 2.45mm per shift. According to Art's Drivetrain Compatibility guide, it should be 2.3mm resulting in a cog pitch of 3.91. My shifter's cable pull results in a cog pitch of 4.16mm and at the extreme of the cassette it's off by 2mm.


Has anyone seen anything like this before? Is there something I missed? I'm wondering what the best way to deal with it is? I think if I wrap some fine sandpaper around a cable I can reduce the cable pull on the shifter a little. Or maybe add a spacer of some sort to the derailleur's cable pitch bolt in order to force it to move a little less.
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Old 06-23-19, 07:39 PM
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Why would you want a short cage to cover a wide range cog set? The low limit setting should have nothing to do with the small cogs. Either something else is going on (like the cable miss routed at the anchor bolt) or you're not describing the situation well. Andy
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Old 06-23-19, 07:55 PM
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Agreed. The Wolftooth isn't any kind of magic device. A short cage derailleur has a body intended to shift correctly-crisply and consistently-up to maybe a 28 tooth cog. You can stretch that a little depending on the length of the RD hanger.

But expecting it to shift a 36 well is asking too much, I think. For that I would suggest Deore.
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Old 06-23-19, 08:06 PM
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I've been running this bike setup 1x with a 9-sp 11-32t (without the wolftooth) for the last few years without problem. The shifting would be fine with the new setup if the cable pull was to spec, that's the issue I'm having. The derailleur is over 2mm inboard of the big cog if it starts just under the small cog.

I just remembered there's another alternate routing to reduce derailleur travel on Sheldon's site, so I'll try that and see if it works.
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Old 06-24-19, 12:27 AM
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Iirc the Shimano 10sp road stuff is interchangeable with the exception of the Dura Ace line (only compatible within its own range). Does anyone else recall this as well, or am I just making stuff up?
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Old 06-24-19, 06:09 AM
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I think it was only early DA 10 speed freehubs that were weird. All else OK with other 10 speed of that generation.
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Old 06-24-19, 06:13 AM
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My initial thought is "why would you think this would work?" Good luck and update us if it does. I have a nice 7800 RD that's out of work since I need easier gearing
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Old 06-24-19, 06:51 AM
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ALL Shimano road derailleurs and shifters are backward and forward compatible with the exception of DA 740X, from 6208 SIS through 7900 DA and everything in between. 7800 freehubs have a doifferent pattern than other freehubs, but that's a minor issue and has nothing to do with cog spacing or cable pull.

Most of the MTB stuff is also compatible with the road stuff; there are some exceptions, e.g. 10 speed MTB derailleurs.

So, yes, those 10 speed DT shifters will shift all the way across a 6-7-8-9-10 speed cassette if the system is properly installed and adjusted. It's possible that the Wolftooth link changes the geometry to the extent that it limits the total travel, but I'd be surprised.
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Old 06-24-19, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
I've been running this bike setup 1x with a 9-sp 11-32t (without the wolftooth) for the last few years without problem. The shifting would be fine with the new setup if the cable pull was to spec, that's the issue I'm having. The derailleur is over 2mm inboard of the big cog if it starts just under the small cog.


I just remembered there's another alternate routing to reduce derailleur travel on Sheldon's site, so I'll try that and see if it works.

If I understand correctly the only thing you changed was replacing the 11-32t cassette with a 11-36t cassette and adding the Wolftooth. RD and shifter did not change? So why then would the shifter cable pull or RD shift ratio change? You might be better off using a 9 speed XT MTB RD though they are technically designed only to shif a max 34t cog.
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Old 06-24-19, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
ALL Shimano road derailleurs and shifters are backward and forward compatible with the exception of DA 740X, from 6208 SIS through 7900 DA and everything in between. 7800 freehubs have a doifferent pattern than other freehubs, but that's a minor issue and has nothing to do with cog spacing or cable pull.

Most of the MTB stuff is also compatible with the road stuff; there are some exceptions, e.g. 10 speed MTB derailleurs.

So, yes, those 10 speed DT shifters will shift all the way across a 6-7-8-9-10 speed cassette if the system is properly installed and adjusted. It's possible that the Wolftooth link changes the geometry to the extent that it limits the total travel, but I'd be surprised.
Maybe if the lever is set to the friction mode... But the amount the der will travel PER "click" is specific to the cog count (and family of actuation ratio). So a 9 "click" (or 10 cogs that has 9 steps between the 10 cogs) lever will move a actuation ratio compatible rear der one cog per one click. But those same levers won't move the der enough for the wider cog spacing of a 5,6,7,8 or 9 cog cassette.

The first gen DA system was designed around a 1.6mm diameter cable and has it's own cable actuation ratio. Shimano changed both to when they introduced the 600 (Ultegra) series to indexing. Andy
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Old 06-24-19, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Maybe if the lever is set to the friction mode... But the amount the der will travel PER "click" is specific to the cog count (and family of actuation ratio). So a 9 "click" (or 10 cogs that has 9 steps between the 10 cogs) lever will move a actuation ratio compatible rear der one cog per one click. But those same levers won't move the der enough for the wider cog spacing of a 5,6,7,8 or 9 cog cassette.

The first gen DA system was designed around a 1.6mm diameter cable and has it's own cable actuation ratio. Shimano changed both to when they introduced the 600 (Ultegra) series to indexing. Andy
Andy- Clearly, one must match the shifter to the cassette with regard to number of speeds. One cannot expect to use a 10 speed shifter to index shift a 7 speed cassette.

But otherwise, as an example, a 6208 six speed downtube shifter will happily and properly shift any Shimano 6-7-8-9-10 speed (non 740X) rear derailleur across a 6 speed freewheel. Similarly, a 7800-7850-7900 set of 10 speed downtube shifters will happily and properly shift any Shimano 6-7-8-9-10 speed rear derailleur across a 10 speed cassette. Neither chain width nor cable pull are an issue here- they all just work well together.

I know this because I've done it, multiple times, with multiple combinations of shifter/derailleur/cassette-freewheel.

My guess -since we've both been around this stuff forever- is that we're saying the same thing in different ways.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:59 PM
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Yes although your reference to "shifter" in your first post speaks to the control lever IMO, not the der. So we agree that the control lever must match up with the cog count for indexing to work well (if not using some form of translator like a Shift Mate). BTW Shimano has said for years that within the same cable actuation ratio family ders are reverse compatible but not intended to be forward so. So by their word a 7 speed der isn't meant to work well on an 8, 9, 10, (and now 11 and 12) cog set. Sometimes they do work well enough, sometimes you end up with some fudging (what Southerland's calls a "B" fit) and sometimes the der's travel limits are met before those last cogs are engaged. The last bit of overlook is that an older der designed for fewer cog counts usually have a wider cage/guide pulley and this can cause spoke contact when in the large cog. (as with more cogs the large cog is usually closer to the spokes then with fewer cogs). Andy
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Old 06-30-19, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
I've been running this bike setup 1x with a 9-sp 11-32t (without the wolftooth) for the last few years without problem. The shifting would be fine with the new setup if the cable pull was to spec, that's the issue I'm having. The derailleur is over 2mm inboard of the big cog if it starts just under the small cog.

I just remembered there's another alternate routing to reduce derailleur travel on Sheldon's site, so I'll try that and see if it works.
I just went back and reread your two posts, You originally said you were having problems with a Shimano 10 speed DT shifter working with a 10 speed cassette. Your 2nd post then says this "setup" was working fine with a 9 speed cassette. No wonder the it isn't working right, You appear to be using a 9 speed DT shifter. Go back to that Art Cyclery website and you will see that a Shimano 9 speed shifter pulls 2.5 mm, which is essentially what you measured 2.45 mm.

So what is the Shimano DT shifter part number? Then use that to verify if it is for 9 speed or 10 speed cassettes.
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Old 06-30-19, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
I just went back and reread your two posts, You originally said you were having problems with a Shimano 10 speed DT shifter working with a 10 speed cassette. Your 2nd post then says this "setup" was working fine with a 9 speed cassette. No wonder the it isn't working right, You appear to be using a 9 speed DT shifter. Go back to that Art Cyclery website and you will see that a Shimano 9 speed shifter pulls 2.5 mm, which is essentially what you measured 2.45 mm.

So what is the Shimano DT shifter part number? Then use that to verify if it is for 9 speed or 10 speed cassettes.
I noticed the same thing reading those 2 posts. If shifting was working on a 9 speed cassette, it cannot work on a 10 speed cassette. Limit screws are only there to keep your derailleur from shifting the chain off the cassette. Once they have been set, they have no function for shifting improvement
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Old 07-01-19, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
I just went back and reread your two posts, You originally said you were having problems with a Shimano 10 speed DT shifter working with a 10 speed cassette. Your 2nd post then says this "setup" was working fine with a 9 speed cassette. No wonder the it isn't working right, You appear to be using a 9 speed DT shifter. Go back to that Art Cyclery website and you will see that a Shimano 9 speed shifter pulls 2.5 mm, which is essentially what you measured 2.45 mm.

So what is the Shimano DT shifter part number? Then use that to verify if it is for 9 speed or 10 speed cassettes.
Originally Posted by alcjphil
I noticed the same thing reading those 2 posts. If shifting was working on a 9 speed cassette, it cannot work on a 10 speed cassette. Limit screws are only there to keep your derailleur from shifting the chain off the cassette. Once they have been set, they have no function for shifting improvement
The shifter is a 10 speed DA shifter. It will shift 9 speeds very well using Sheldon's alternate cable routing. I maintain another bike that's setup with 10 speed shimano bar ends and a 9s cassette and it's fine too.

I took a closer look at the cable pull on my DA 10s shifter and it turns out Artscyclery is wrong and each shift is (for the most part) pulling progressively more cable with each shift. It seems to pull from a low of ~2mm to 4mm on the last shift. I got the parts to try a hubbub routing, so will try that and see what happens.
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Old 07-01-19, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
The shifter is a 10 speed DA shifter. It will shift 9 speeds very well using Sheldon's alternate cable routing. I maintain another bike that's setup with 10 speed shimano bar ends and a 9s cassette and it's fine too.

I took a closer look at the cable pull on my DA 10s shifter and it turns out Artscyclery is wrong and each shift is (for the most part) pulling progressively more cable with each shift. It seems to pull from a low of ~2mm to 4mm on the last shift. I got the parts to try a hubbub routing, so will try that and see what happens.
Fine, but limit screws will not allow a derailleur to shift the chain off the cassette once they have been set. Since a 10 speed Shimano cassette is a bit narrower than a 9 speed cassette, the limit screws will not allow the derailleur to shift the chain off the cassette no matter what alternative cable routing you use. The derailleur is a stupid device, the limit screws limit travel. If the shifter shifts the chain off the cassette, the limit screws were not set properly
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Old 07-01-19, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
Fine, but limit screws will not allow a derailleur to shift the chain off the cassette once they have been set. Since a 10 speed Shimano cassette is a bit narrower than a 9 speed cassette, the limit screws will not allow the derailleur to shift the chain off the cassette no matter what alternative cable routing you use. The derailleur is a stupid device, the limit screws limit travel. If the shifter shifts the chain off the cassette, the limit screws were not set properly
Yep. The problem I'm having is that the limit screws couldn't be properly set when moving to a 10 speed cassette. The shifter would not shift to the big cog unless the limit screw was loosened.
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Old 07-01-19, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tFUnK
I just making stuff up?
Yep, you are.

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Old 07-01-19, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
Yep. The problem I'm having is that the limit screws couldn't be properly set when moving to a 10 speed cassette. The shifter would not shift to the big cog unless the limit screw was loosened.
Why couldn't the limit screws be set with the 10 spd cassette? Was it that you were moving the rear der across it's range by using the lever? We use our fingers and/or cable to check rear der limits before moving onto the lever's contributions. Andy
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Old 07-01-19, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
Yep. The problem I'm having is that the limit screws couldn't be properly set when moving to a 10 speed cassette. The shifter would not shift to the big cog unless the limit screw was loosened.
I'm a little puzzled at why you are tinkering with the limit screws.

The last bike I was messing with, I replaced the chain and cassette. Then set the limit screws by pushing the derailleur by hand without a chain. It worked pretty sweet. Then no more (significant) adjustment of the limit screws once the chain was in place.

Use an inline barrel adjuster (or at the derailleur or cable stops) for fine tuning the shifting.

If you're got 9 shifts, then not hitting the 10th shift, then back off on the barrel adjuster slightly.

Is the cassette tight on your hub? None of the sprockets move, right?

Bad shifting is sometimes caused by bad derailleur cables and housing (non compressible, lined?)
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Old 07-01-19, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Why couldn't the limit screws be set with the 10 spd cassette? Was it that you were moving the rear der across it's range by using the lever? We use our fingers and/or cable to check rear der limits before moving onto the lever's contributions. Andy
Me too. I usually set limit screws before I even attach the cable to the derailleur on a new installation
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Old 07-01-19, 07:01 PM
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Check the Derail Hanger for alignment w/ the proper tool 1st?
It does matter.....

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Old 07-01-19, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
The shifter is a 10 speed DA shifter. It will shift 9 speeds very well using Sheldon's alternate cable routing. I maintain another bike that's setup with 10 speed shimano bar ends and a 9s cassette and it's fine too.


I took a closer look at the cable pull on my DA 10s shifter and it turns out Artscyclery is wrong and each shift is (for the most part) pulling progressively more cable with each shift. It seems to pull from a low of ~2mm to 4mm on the last shift. I got the parts to try a hubbub routing, so will try that and see what happens.

If your shifter is progressively pulling more cable (as you shift from high to low gears) then you have a problem; they don't work that way. Or I could be wrong, in which case provide a couple websites that say they do pull progressively more cable so I learn something new. Maybe otheres could weigh in whether Shimano 10 speed road shifters work this way.
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Old 07-02-19, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by nazcalines
it wouldn't shift into the 36t cog unless the L limit was dangerously far out, with a good chance of the chain going into the spokes. If I put the L limit about where it should be, I the indexing in the smaller cogs would be terrible.
This statement displays a common but obvious misunderstanding of how derailleurs are set up, esp. the limit screws. The L limit screw will have no impact on anything other that the maximum inboard position. You can have the L limit screw all the way out, all that way in, or completely removed and it will have no impact on anything but the inboard-most position of the derailleur. Literally zero impact on indexing beyond the innermost cog(s).
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Old 07-02-19, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
Check the Derail Hanger for alignment w/ the proper tool 1st?
It does matter.....

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Thanks... yes it definitely does matter. When I first started troubleshooting this I checked the alignment and it was off by 4mm at the rim. Corrected it, but it wasn't enough to solve the problem.

Originally Posted by Eggman84
If your shifter is progressively pulling more cable (as you shift from high to low gears) then you have a problem; they don't work that way. Or I could be wrong, in which case provide a couple websites that say they do pull progressively more cable so I learn something new. Maybe otheres could weigh in whether Shimano 10 speed road shifters work this way.
You want me to provide websites that backup my cable pull measurements so that you can learn something new? Put your bike in your workstand and measure it. Takes all of 5 min.

Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier
This statement displays a common but obvious misunderstanding of how derailleurs are set up, esp. the limit screws. The L limit screw will have no impact on anything other that the maximum inboard position. You can have the L limit screw all the way out, all that way in, or completely removed and it will have no impact on anything but the inboard-most position of the derailleur. Literally zero impact on indexing beyond the innermost cog(s).
Yes the limit screws limit the derailleur for the first and last cogs. I think most people get that. The point of this thread is what happens when there is too much cable pull and the derailleur isn't indexing properly.
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