Gravel descents
#26
- Soli Deo Gloria -
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I don't buy into the idea that one has to crash to learn how to ride fast.
If you ride long enough then you will crash eventually but I don't believe it is necessary to crash to learn how to ride near or at the limit.
-Tim-
If you ride long enough then you will crash eventually but I don't believe it is necessary to crash to learn how to ride near or at the limit.
-Tim-
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It's a gross generalization that ignores the basic attack position and hinging techniques. It sure sounds like you're describing the ancient "Marin clench" technique that died decades ago...
https://www.llbmtb.com/lessons/row-a...ing-positions/
What are you defining "downhill geometry" to be?
https://www.llbmtb.com/lessons/row-a...ing-positions/
What are you defining "downhill geometry" to be?
It's not about the bike.
Last edited by tyrion; 06-20-19 at 04:35 PM.
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More mountain-bikey geometry helps you go descend faster. If the bike allows you to get behind the wheels (shorter reach and a saddle that gets out of the way) you'll be more comfortable and go down hills faster. The geo puts you in a position of better control when the bike is pointed downward.
OTOH the downhill geometry isn't so good for going up hills and is less nimble.
Pick your poison.
OTOH the downhill geometry isn't so good for going up hills and is less nimble.
Pick your poison.
It's also 650B vs 700c, so that may be a factor as well.
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#30
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Tubeless, wider, lower pressures. That is really all I can offer.
#31
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Large saddle cutout for the massive sack it takes to nail loose gravel turns at high speed.
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A skilled rider can make almost any bike work on a gravel descent. Claiming that the "basic physics is undeniable" ignores this fact.
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Ummmmm...both of those bikes have geometry that is firmly at the XC end of the MTB spectrum. The Rove is 1/2° slacker at 71.5° with a higher BB and slightly longer chainstays so my bet would be that the difference you feel is more likely to be 650b vs. geo differences.
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Flying onto the ignore list....
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Maybe it's simplistic but it's true.
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Obviously the crashing doesn’t teach you anything but it is a natural consequence of riding/driving/skiing on, or close to, the ‘edge’. I take it you don’t ski?
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Apparently BACONSHAKES has never ridden an Enduro or Downhill specific MTB, as compared to a XC or standard trailbike.
#39
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You do if you are paying attention.
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
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You do if you are paying attention.
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
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You do if you are paying attention.
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.
A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.
Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.
Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.
-Tim-
Driving a car and getting it to slide or drift a little on a corner is not the same as trying to improve lap times on a course filled with a variety of corners where you have to pick the right time to go from full throttle to 100% braking and pick the perfect line while keeping the car balanced. Get anything wrong and it's not hard to slip off the track.
#42
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I know my last crash DH finally taught me to lower the seat enough
Recently I've been doing the same route with three bikes, A hardtail with and without suspension fork, a FS downhill bike and a fat bike.
Skill is, of course, the biggest factor but after that...
Wider tires on loose gravel help a lot to prevent sloughing.
Front suspension really takes out the jarring and the need to be worried (as much) about picking lines. It also helps to recover when you get it wrong.
A geometry that lowers the butt helps, whether that's a dropper post, doing it old school or bike design. With bike design you pay one way or the other (uphill or down).
You can go to wide on tires. Fat bike is fun but slower.
Full squish is weird in the way it rolls over everything but I'm still getting used to the slinky effect.
When riding a 26" vs a 700c the 700 beats me on the flats etc... but I win going down sketchy gravel. I'm pretty sure its because I have more confidence with the mtb geometry rather than the other eprson being in a road stance over the bars and because the wider tires track better.
Recently I've been doing the same route with three bikes, A hardtail with and without suspension fork, a FS downhill bike and a fat bike.
Skill is, of course, the biggest factor but after that...
Wider tires on loose gravel help a lot to prevent sloughing.
Front suspension really takes out the jarring and the need to be worried (as much) about picking lines. It also helps to recover when you get it wrong.
A geometry that lowers the butt helps, whether that's a dropper post, doing it old school or bike design. With bike design you pay one way or the other (uphill or down).
You can go to wide on tires. Fat bike is fun but slower.
Full squish is weird in the way it rolls over everything but I'm still getting used to the slinky effect.
When riding a 26" vs a 700c the 700 beats me on the flats etc... but I win going down sketchy gravel. I'm pretty sure its because I have more confidence with the mtb geometry rather than the other eprson being in a road stance over the bars and because the wider tires track better.
#44
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Gee, in all of the miles that I've logged on the track, I never had my radio on...great advice!
It's not about paying attention. If you are driving at 10/10ths, riding at 10/10ths, skiing at 10/10ths, the margin of error is such that the most minor miscalculation, the most minor input mistake, or the most minor change in surface characteristics puts you over the limits of grip. Sometimes you can recover, sometimes you don't. It's by having those experiences over the grip limits that you improve as a driver, rider, or skier and learn where those limits are.
While you apparently have very little, if any, experience on a MTB, of course experienced riders can ride past the tire's limit of adhesion. They don't get to that level of experience without going past it so that they understand where that line is. Sometimes we crash, sometimes it's just a blown corner, and eventually,as you gain experience, you ride it out or purposely drift - but you'll never know where the limit is until you go past it.
Which is part of getting faster.
It's not about paying attention. If you are driving at 10/10ths, riding at 10/10ths, skiing at 10/10ths, the margin of error is such that the most minor miscalculation, the most minor input mistake, or the most minor change in surface characteristics puts you over the limits of grip. Sometimes you can recover, sometimes you don't. It's by having those experiences over the grip limits that you improve as a driver, rider, or skier and learn where those limits are.
While you apparently have very little, if any, experience on a MTB, of course experienced riders can ride past the tire's limit of adhesion. They don't get to that level of experience without going past it so that they understand where that line is. Sometimes we crash, sometimes it's just a blown corner, and eventually,as you gain experience, you ride it out or purposely drift - but you'll never know where the limit is until you go past it.
Which is part of getting faster.
yes, sometimes we crash. But it isn't necessary to learn to ride fast. Crashing isn't a requirement.
-Tim-
#46
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Most "gravel bikes" seem to have the longer wheelbases and slack head angles that are supposedly designed to give confidence while descending. Just keep in mind that they are better for straight route descending, and not hairpin curves.
In a curvy downhill section, I actually prefer my road race bike (on the road) with a short wheelbase and a 73 degree head angle for snappy handling. There's nothing like leaning in to a curve on a "stable-geometry" bike and realizing the handling you need isn't baked in to the bike.
It's hard to tell from your photo what the radius is like on those curves, but if they are really gradual, you will probably be fine on a "typical" slack geometry gravel bike. But if not, there are gravel bikes like the Open U.P. that have snappier turning capability.
In a curvy downhill section, I actually prefer my road race bike (on the road) with a short wheelbase and a 73 degree head angle for snappy handling. There's nothing like leaning in to a curve on a "stable-geometry" bike and realizing the handling you need isn't baked in to the bike.
It's hard to tell from your photo what the radius is like on those curves, but if they are really gradual, you will probably be fine on a "typical" slack geometry gravel bike. But if not, there are gravel bikes like the Open U.P. that have snappier turning capability.
#47
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A friend recently asked me to do the “Horribly Hilly Hundreds” in the driftless area of Wisconsin, and I couldn’t even think of any place to train for it.
#48
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I noticed this video on gravelcyclist.com.
Dave Zabriskie illustrates why smoking too many blunts is bad.
Jom's crash really wasn't necessary.
-Tim-
Dave Zabriskie illustrates why smoking too many blunts is bad.
Jom's crash really wasn't necessary.
-Tim-
Last edited by TimothyH; 06-21-19 at 02:25 PM.
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This is such a typical comment on this forum. I said above that I know skill is the most important factor. However, it's not an either/or scenario when talking about skill and equipment. Wouldn't it be good to have both?
I just asked the question to try to make the best possible equipment when I make my purchase. Why wouldn't I want the best possible tool for the job?
I just asked the question to try to make the best possible equipment when I make my purchase. Why wouldn't I want the best possible tool for the job?
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Thanks for the responses, but I'm really looking for any insight relating on bike specifics. Anything specific to look for on the new bike that will help descend faster.
I completely understand that my ability is the main factor. However, since I'll be getting a new bike I want to get the bike that would give me the most advantage on descents (while keeping the total weight of the bike down). Even if the advantage is minimal.
A second lost on the downhill is the same as a second lost on the uphill.
I completely understand that my ability is the main factor. However, since I'll be getting a new bike I want to get the bike that would give me the most advantage on descents (while keeping the total weight of the bike down). Even if the advantage is minimal.
A second lost on the downhill is the same as a second lost on the uphill.
Long, low, slack. That is how to roll.
My bike is none of the 3. Its a blast to ride, but a handfull on long decents.
P.S. Appologies for the people answering their own question and ignoring what you are really after.
A second lost on the downhill is the same as a second lost on the uphill.
But, it is the slow sections that ruin your average speed. Really really impact it.
1 second lost per minute on a 2 minute down hill vs a 10 minute uphill is well.... you do the math.
your average speed is going to take a BIG hit on the slow sections.
if you are averaging 5mph on the uphills (10 minutes), and 20mph on the down hills (for 2 minutes) - its the climbs that are going to kill your times.
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