ADAP7IVE

Apologies for the long post, this is as much a thinking-out-loud process to help me work it out, as it is to get some feedback from the experienced riders here. If you want to skip all the background, pop down to the bold section. Additionally, I'm not looking for advice about going cheaper or how wasteful going so expensive might be--part of this decision I've already made is the experience of having such a high-end bike at least once.

I'm finally trading in my hardtail commuter/bikepacker for a top-end bike, and narrowed to 2. Even before I started cycling seriously I was lusting over a Ti bike. Partly for aesthetics, partly because I tend to abuse frames generally and ride in all weather, and Ti seems like a nice balance between weight and durability. I was waiting to pull the trigger until I returned to the US, but some recent changes in my life (good ones I think, no tragedies) have pushed me to not waiting any longer.

When I started riding years ago, I was utterly anxious about bike maintenance--won't the derailleur and chain wear out quickly? Won't they be a faff to clean and maintain? Isn't a derailleur really fragile with all those moving parts? Won't the paint on a steel bike chip and expose the frame to rust? And on and on. I wanted an IGH or Pinion/Gates belt combo to not have to think about it. Having ridden (and abused) some derailleur bikes since then, I also learned that modern drivetrains are not as fragile or difficult as I had imagined. Pinion/Gates still has the clear edge in low-maintenance and wider gearing, though, and might even be more durable because I won't have to consider hitting a derailleur on something.

The choice: I'm looking at Moots Routt 45 or Baxter with standard drivetrains, and a Co-Motion Klatch or Siskiyou with Pinion/Gates. Buying and shipping to Japan evens out the costs between the two because Moots has dealers here, even though the Co-Motion would be cheaper in the US. The riding is going to be all-weather in Japan, which is mountainous and wet most of the year on poorly-maintained or unpaved roads. I'll do daily rides and bikepacking trips from weekends to 1200+ km trips, and I'd like to keep the bike (certainly the frame) at least 5 years. If I can run commutes on it too, all the better, but I don't need a bike for that.

Thanks for your thoughts.

DropBarFan

Tough decision, Moots Ti would be lighter but Co-Motion Siskiyou/Pinion seems to have the maximum versatility with more rack mounts & fender clearance & low-maintenance drivetrain. Your plan is for bikepacking (apparently without fenders) but for the high price, I'd like to have maximum versatility.

Moots seem to be on the expensive side of titanium bikes, for the same price wouldn't other builders be able to build a more customized bike for the same or even less price? IE, why not a Ti bike with more forgiving geometry, Rohloff/Gates or even Pinion/Gates?

I have a Diamondback Haanjo carbon gravel/tourer which is super-light (10kg/22lb) & ~1/4 the price of a Moots. Front/rear rack & fender eyelets, comfy ride though no brifters or IGH. Carbon is more fragile than Ti or steel but seems OK for general use, main thing I'd worry about is airline damage.

ADAP7IVE

Thanks. That's a good point about the versatility. Definitely more mount points on the Siskiyou (or the Divide, their 29er bikepacker), and spots on the fork for rack or basket. The new Routt 45 also has fender mounts and 3 bottle mounts as standard, which is one reason it's on the shortlist, but a cheaper Ti like a Salsa Fargo or something from Lynskey or Litespeed would absolutely work. Though again getting the latter two in Japan raises the cost because there are no dealers. I've talked with the guys at Firefly as well and they said they could build custom for cheaper than Moots, but the lead time on one of their bikes is a year. I might try talking with Eriksen or Burl too.

For carbon I've looked at Giant TCX, Canyon Grail, Trek Checkpoint, Specialized Diverge and Crux, 3T Exploro, Open UP builds, and Salsa Warbird or Cutthroat. I quite like several, like the TCX (almost bought one in 2017), the Checkpoint, Crux, and UP, but in every case either the geometry or my tendency to be rough on frames has me shying away from them for this purpose. Paradoxically, I'm a big fan of carbon MTBs, and my next trail bike will probably be carbon.

djb

given your wording about "being tough on frames" and your views of drivetrain maintenance, it certainly sounds that a belt drive would be a really good thing, especially if you will be riding in rainy conditions regularly.
Keeping on top of drivetrain maintenance, especially with rainy riding, is the only way to keep stuff in good working order, so thats the whole plus to a gates belt drive or whatever--they certainly seem to be an ideal solution for this sort of thing.

a Dutch couple whose names I forget, have a website for their travels, and in the last year or two, they have been using belt drive bikes, so some searching should come up with their site, written in English btw, that would give you some real world touring experience by them living with belt drives.

I dont have any opinion on frames, other than the usual thing about ti being less of an issue for the environments like you have stated.

anyway, have fun deciding, and no matter your choice, it will be a fun experience, especially if you decide to go the non traditional drivetrain route.

oh yeah, the Dutch couples bikes have that gearing system where it is all down in the bottom bracket area, Gates Pinion.

Bicycle junkies....name of their site.

alan s 

Lynskey has a big following in Asia. Not sure why. I have a Lynskey gravel bike, and it is a high quality frame. You can usually pick up a clearance frame at certain times of the year for a decent price.

fietsbob

Powder coat is quite chip resistant


The Other bike making company In Eugene is Bike Friday , a bike made for traveling ..

a big advantage is its mix of folding and take down.. to a suitcase fitting size ..

Options : size, bars, drivetrain, colors wheel size 20" 406 or 451 ..

I got a deal on this one; Disc brakes, Hub Dynamo , R'off .. 'thudbuster' post

changed parts .. to suit my needs..




they ship world wide... , riders use them all over the globe ..





....

pdlamb

I get the feeling you're thinking about this as your "lifetime" bike, one you'll ride as long as you can ride a bike. Given that, I'd be looking at spare parts availability for the next 20-30 years (making a few assumptions there w.r.t. your age and how long you'll keep riding, of course).

You can keep a 50 year old derailer bike going with available parts today. Of course, indexing throws monkey wrenches into the mix that weren't there before, but the derailers and chains are still available. I wonder if you'll still be able to buy Gates belts and Pinion parts that far into the future.

fietsbob

You are in Japan but cannot wrap your head around any Japanese builders?

I've seen bikes some Japanese Touring riders brought with them , visiting the US..


I recall a few, they had an affection for French cyclocamping rigs .. using 4 good sized panniers ,

and keeping every thing low, and inside those panniers ..

tyrion

This isn't the comparison you're asking about but it might provide some info:

PedalingWalrus

the siskyou with S&S couplers could be a sweet and bombproof ride for years. Can You save on shipping if You buy it with S&S couplers ? :-)

Brian25

Forget the Comotion, the company is run by a bunch of criminals.

Tourist in MSN

I really do not understand your thought process, but that does not matter, what matters is that you understand it. You are not just comparing a specific steel frame bike from a specific manufacturer with a specific Titanium frame bike from a specific manufacturer, but you also are adding two extremely different drive trains to the two bikes. The Co-Motion has to have the Pinion/Gates drive train but the Moots can not have that drive train. If your logic makes sense to you, that is all that really matters.


I am quite happy with the Lynskey Backroad I built up a couple years ago. It was their loaded touring frame. I think that frame is now discontinued, it is on their clearance page at a substantial discount. You could get the frame and have a bike shop build it up with the parts you want. Frame does not include fork, I used an older Surly LHT rim brake fork on my Backroad because I already had one in storage and the axle to crown race distance and fork rake were both very close to the stock Lynskey fork at that time. Mine is the Industrial Mill finish which I think is a very good finish.
https://lynskeyperformance.com/backroad-touring-frame/

I found the customer service staff at Lynskey were a bit frustrating to deal with when I was getting the frame, but once I had a built up bike and was riding it, all that past frustration pretty much disappeared and I like the bike very much.

DropBarFan

Even if one isn't rough on frames, carbon isn't ideal for bike-packing I suppose: not good to clamp things on tubes & perhaps even bag straps could wear into the resin. I hadn't known Lynskey/Litespeed etc cost more w/o dealers. There's quite a few Ti builders, I would email them all to check out cost/options/lead times. If I spend $$ on a Ti bike I'd want the advantages of Rohloff/Pinion/Gates too. Ti frame would help negate the added weight of Rohloff or Pinion. IMO Pinion is interesting but is quite heavy & fewer companies build them. Swiss Hilite makes a complete Pinion P.18 bike for $6,700 which is less than the Moots Routt 45. The stock Hilite is flat-bar; I don't know extra cost to customize for drop-bar.

https://www.hilite-bikes.com/titaniu...-complete-bike

GamblerGORD53

For sure get IGH..... As if I didn't already HATE defailleurs, last night I had another confirmation reading a CGOAB blog. A grey hair guy like me was riding the muddy GAP trail. His drive train was getting dirty and washed. Then maybe his chain jumped and suddenly a crunch and dead stop. Everything was broke including 3 spokes, so walk walk, a truck ride and a $150 fix likely. I don't see how so many get by with this ever more complicated garbage technology of a 1000 incompatible different varieties that are NOT improving. Including the TdF bikes. LOL..
Yah, most countries have 8 speed junk MTBs, big deal.

Pinion is gaining favor, but I haven't seen one to compare to my Rohloff. They have made 230,000 or so, more every year still. I did see another older guy in Hanoi, happy with gates belt on a Rohloff. He rode most of the way from Holland, except China's mountain deserts west of Chengdu. His bike with 26er wheels was all clean and unloaded. Still looked brand new. He got new tires in Istanbul. I would still get chains that most any city has. A 135 mm rear can be used with any IGH. A crash will have NO effect. Broken spokes are VERY unlikely.
I'm still unsure what the width of SS wheels on Pinion bikes. They could be oddball to replace.

I only have IGH bikes now, SA and Rohloff14 with a DIY chain case. For touring and foul weather and any conditions really, Rohloff is KING of the road. Mine has 15,600 trouble free miles on 700x35 mm tires, it now has a 203 mm disc and perfect Spyre brake. Also with a SA dyno Drum brake on the front has 24,500 miles, I have ZERO worries. But the 1/8" chains and crummy Alu crank ring still wears too fast. My custom 5" longer bike is sure a failure at low weight. LOL

Tough choice with steel or TI. My overworked first fork broke 3 times in Vietnam and China. Every village there still has a welder.

DanBell

What's this about?

DanBell

If you want high end steel in Japan, you can't do better than Vlad at Equilibrium Cycle Works. He's a great dude and he produces some stunning frames. I don't know about doing a Rohloff or Pinion frame, but it wouldn't hurt to shoot him an email and ask.

I saw a few builds from EBS in a shop in Tokyo the other day. They looked clean and practical. Kyoto company. Not sure about custom work or IGHs though.