America's oil depenence cure...Rationing!
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America's oil depenence cure...Rationing!
IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.
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It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.
Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.
Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.
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IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.
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In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.
I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.
The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.
Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.
Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.
Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.
The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.
Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.
Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.
Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
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In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.
I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.
The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.
Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.
Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.
Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.
The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.
Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.
Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.
Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.
Government illegally spying on its citizens? Who cares it doesn't affect me!
Ban all trans fats in the city? Great!!! I'm already skinny and I never eat out. Who cares???!!!
Rationing? Great idea!!! I'm carbon positive! screw everyone else!
Bike tax? Whoa now!!! This is an outrage!!! I already pay my taxes!!! Who thought of this stupid idea??? I want someone's head over this!!! Critical mass ahoy!!!
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And maybe we can cure the obesity problem by rationing food? Or reduce cancer deaths by rationing tobacco? Or alcoholism by rationing beer, wine, and liquor?
How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.
How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.
Victory Gardens and raise rabbits, ducks & chickens to supplement the food they was
being rationed. Also many grew their own, or traded, tobacco and brewed their own booze.
So what' yer point here?
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My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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they are? Here I always thought it was the trucking industry. Or the airline industry, or the delivery industry (fed ex/ups).
Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.
Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.
Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.
Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.
#10
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fuel consumption to only work use. As a child of the 1950's I learned the hard way to
make it last, use it up, or do without...and not whine about.
All to many people today need to learn that lesson (excluding the poor 'cause they already know)
today.
__________________
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.
Originally Posted by krazygluon
Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
#11
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IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
You'll have to handle it a whole lot better than last time, and give people a good justification or they'll be getting very self-righteous and angry.
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#12
Sophomoric Member
It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!
The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.
If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.
Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.
If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.
Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
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#13
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Roody good points.
Here is an article that gives you an inkling of what is transpiring even now. I follow Tom Whipple's articles with great interest, he seems to have more of a real world grasp on what is happening than anyone else around.
Aaron
Here is an article that gives you an inkling of what is transpiring even now. I follow Tom Whipple's articles with great interest, he seems to have more of a real world grasp on what is happening than anyone else around.
Aaron
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"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#14
RacingBear
Coupon rationing... Ask anyone who grew up in Soviet Union how well that worked out.
It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!
The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.
If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.
Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.
If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.
Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations.
#15
Sophomoric Member
Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.
Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK?
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#16
RacingBear
It's barely possible that another society might handle rationing better than the USSR did.
Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.
Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK?
Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.
Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK?
All these ideas about increasing gas prices, rationing are short sighted knee jerk reactions that will only lead to failure. You can't just change people behavior in a positive way by passing laws or imposing restrictions. You need to change how people think fundamentally. Assume current generation is lost, and start educating the next one. Get kids to view bike/public transportation as a usual thing, getting a car not a passage to adulthood, start improving roadways so it's easier to ride a bike, walk, make public transportation more useful, etc. The change will be slow and will take a generation or two, but it will be more permanent and permanent then imposing rationing.
Last edited by UmneyDurak; 04-10-08 at 02:50 PM.
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IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
The reason that the US had fuel shortages in the 1970's was that the US government enacted price controls in the face of an embargo. In other countries at the time, they were not that idiotic and allowed the price of fuel to float to whatever the market would bear. Although it was more expensive for a while, fuel was generally available if you had to drive somewhere and other countries never experienced the long lines and empty gas stations that the US did.
-----
The USSR is a grand example of that most common Socialist failure, market price controls. Require farmers to sell their goods for less than they think it's worth, and just like magic, every year is a bad year for crops--but the farmers or their close friends never seem to go hungry. And the ruling class doesn't go hungry either, because they pay the farmers through the back door. So who suffers? Are you a farmer or one of the ruling class?....
-----
Also many aspects of daily life have gotten to the point that for many people, motoring a lot is simply required. When you say what a great idea it would be to ration gas or raise it to $10/gallon, you should understand that you're basically proposing kicking the US economy in the nuts--and no politician is going to do that.
~
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IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.
Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
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#19
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The two places I have lived in the last year are an interesting study
in socio-economic dynamics and attitudes regarding fuel usage.
In Vermont, people do not have the expendable cash to waste driving
around. They more often than not work two crappy jobs that they might
have to drive 25 miles 1w to. So, they use only the gas they need to use.
Here in West Palm, FL., gratuitous, selfish, overindulgence is the norm.
A car is a right for any 16 year old to joyride in and SUVs carom in and out of
shopping malls with deadly aplomb. People sit in Escalades and let them idle for 20
minutes at a time while the spouse runs into the quicky-mart that is
1/2 mile from the condo. Its this attitude of entitlement that needs to be broken.
The people who are contributing to this problem the most are the ones who can
afford gas at almost any price. If we raise the price of gas we are only hurting the
people who already suffer. Im all for rationing. Real WWII style not fake '70's
style.
in socio-economic dynamics and attitudes regarding fuel usage.
In Vermont, people do not have the expendable cash to waste driving
around. They more often than not work two crappy jobs that they might
have to drive 25 miles 1w to. So, they use only the gas they need to use.
Here in West Palm, FL., gratuitous, selfish, overindulgence is the norm.
A car is a right for any 16 year old to joyride in and SUVs carom in and out of
shopping malls with deadly aplomb. People sit in Escalades and let them idle for 20
minutes at a time while the spouse runs into the quicky-mart that is
1/2 mile from the condo. Its this attitude of entitlement that needs to be broken.
The people who are contributing to this problem the most are the ones who can
afford gas at almost any price. If we raise the price of gas we are only hurting the
people who already suffer. Im all for rationing. Real WWII style not fake '70's
style.
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The vast majority of people want to drive, and they will do so until conditions make it unreasonably uncomfortable to do so. Eventually, a lot of people will opt out of driving, given the geometric oil-demand curve and the flat oil-supply curve; in the not-too-distant future, only the rich will drive everywhere they go. But it's very silly to impose such conditions artificially from above.
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If you follow the trends, big oil in time of problems will jack prices and do things for not much other reason then to see what people will do. A big storm hits a few gas stations jump $.50 then drop to normal. 6 months later your just short of that $.50 raise for no reason this time.
I say this because when New Orleans was hit a few years ago a lot of stations (mainly truck stops in the south east USA) started fuel rationing that lasted for several days. Most where limiting gas to 10 gallons and diesel to 50 gallons at over $6.00 each (Most semi trucks need 125+gallons a day to run uninterrupted). So if history repeats its self then fuel rationing will happen again.
I say this because when New Orleans was hit a few years ago a lot of stations (mainly truck stops in the south east USA) started fuel rationing that lasted for several days. Most where limiting gas to 10 gallons and diesel to 50 gallons at over $6.00 each (Most semi trucks need 125+gallons a day to run uninterrupted). So if history repeats its self then fuel rationing will happen again.
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This is like your wet dream isn't it? NEver happen. No politician that ever wants to be re elected will even consider this. The coutry will be run into the ground before this happens.
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Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
https://www.greatfallstribune.com/app...WS01/804110316
They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.
https://www.greatfallstribune.com/app...WS01/804110316
They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.
#24
Senior Member
I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.
In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!
In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!
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I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.
In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!
In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!