ArgoMan

Hey all. Is there really any noticeable difference in the various Shimano rim brake hierarchy. I'm sure that Dura Ace brakes are much better than Claris, but is there really any significance difference in performance once we get into the mid-range brakes (Tiagra, 105 Ultegra?) I have a set of 105s on my main bike that work great. But Soras I have on another bike work well also. I read an article a few years back were pro riders were switching their Dura Ace brakes to 105s, as the 105s supposedly gave better performance, despite the weight. Any opinions? This all pertains to my never-ending inquiries for my TT build. Thanks all!

MidTNBrad

I have both 5800 series 105 and 6800 series Ultegra on different bikes and can't tell a difference.

ArgoMan

That's basically my concern. I can get a good used set of Ultegras for a few bucks more than 105's, or even more for Tiagras. I think I'll just go with 105's Thanks!

datlas 

If SAME generation likely minimal difference. Newer is better.

SoSmellyAir

According to this blog, the only difference (other than finish and weight) is Ultegra has adjustable spring tension:

Hands On Bike: Difference between Ultegra 6800 and Shimano 105 5800 Brake Calipers

As for the most recent generation (of rim brake calipers), Ultegra has an additional plate for increased stiffness:

Hands On Bike: Shimano Ultegra R8000 vs 105 R7000 Brake Calipers

ArgoMan

Thanks Smelly....you've always been so helpful. I'm very appreciative.

Do you have an opinion on the Shimano R7010 105's? I can get a like-new set on the cheap.

SoSmellyAir

No. Those are direct mount brake calipers, and my rim brake frames only take the regular center mount calipers.

ArgoMan

Oh, I see that now. Silly me.

rsbob 

Silly me. Smelly, him.

Clydesdale John

I have upgraded one of my bikes to 105 5800 and the other Ultegra 6800. I love them both!! They both have swiss stop pads for aluminum brake track. I think they match any disk braking system out there and are much easier to service. The bigger the leverage the better the stopping power. The fact that the leverage is better with rim brakes vrs disk brakes makes a big difference. The further out the brakes are from the center of the wheel means the speed of the brake track is slower and provides more leverage when brakes are applied. It works like gearing. Hydraulics helps a lot. My favorite would be hydraulic rim brakes but they are hard to find. Hydraulic rim brakes are better than hydraulic disk brakes but hydraulic disk brakes are better than cable pull rim brakes.

aliasfox

I seem to recall Dura Ace has ball bearings in its pivots, as opposed to bushings in lower tiers.

I have Ultegra 6500 brakes from 20 years ago that work like champs - I've compared them to the Force AXS brakes that I got for a different bike, and the old Ultegras have marginally better stopping power. Now, I'm saying this after I've put new cables, housing, and wheels on the bike, all of which incrementally improved braking by reducing friction (cables/housing) and increasing friction (new wheels with fresh machined rim walls). Before I did all of that, the old Ultegras weren't much good.

All that to say: I'm pretty sure that as long as you keep all your wear items in-check, any of the modern calipers ought to do quite well. I'd get whatever matches the rest of the bike, personally.

deacon mark

Basically, a r7000 rim brake will do what you need and you are paying for less weight. Stopping at the 105 and above level is all about the pads. I would go with Kool Stop pads they are better than Shimano and you will stop fine.

roadcrankr

At least in a TT, you won't have a drafting rider noticing that you cheaped-out. J/K.

georges1

If you want awesome stopping power , try the dura ace 7700/7800/7900 rim brakes they are above the 105 and the ultegra.

ArgoMan

Thanks! I've seen lots of really good condition DA's in that series range on Ebay. My concern is the clearance. I like to ride 28mm tires and don't know if any of those DAs provide sufficient clearance. Also, I need the long attachment bolt that is at least 2 1/8 inches long to fit onto a more modern carbon frame. I can't find any info on the net about these two concerns.

Clydesdale John

I recently upgraded my CAAD 10 to 28c Conti 5000. My new rim is a Kinlin XR-31T and is 24mm wide. I had a rear 6800 Ultegra and it would not fit. The 6800 Ultegra fit for the front wheel. I had to buy a rear 8100 Ultegra rim brake caliper to fit the wider set up.

SoSmellyAir

Are you implying that older generations of Dura-Ace rim brake calipers have better stopping power than their 105 and Ultegra counterparts within the same generation? I started road cycling in the first Shimano 11-speed generation (i.e., 5800|6800|9000), and since that time the consensus is that 105/Ultegra/Dura-Ace brakes (including disc brakes) are functionally indistinguishable but the higher tiers are lighter and have better finishes.

The rear wheel of your CAAD10 is 3x as wide as a wheel of my car! (I run 235 mm tires on 18x8 wheels all around.)

Clydesdale John

24mm wide. I went back and fixed it. Wider is better but 24" is even a bit to wide for me.

Dave Mayer

All Shimano dual-pivots from 7403 (circa 1992) on are great brakes. I've used almost all of them, including cheap RSX and RX100 models, and they were super stoppers. Being dual pivots, they are self-centering, and simple to set up.

Shimano may have changed brake cable pull requirements from time to time, but the underlying mechanism hadn't changed for those many years until the 6800 series of symmetrical dual pivot brakes. These newer brakes are mechanically more akin to a centerpull, as opposed to the earlier generations of calipers which were an amalgamation of a centerpull and sidepull. The 6800 caliper arms sweep symmetrically onto the rim, but so what? Each arm on the earlier brakes takes a somewhat different rotational travel path onto the rim, but I didn't notice how this was a disadvantage in terms of braking power, modulation or ease of setup.

Anyway, I'm now riding on the 8000 Ultegra brakes, and these are unique due to the steel stiffening plate between the arms. I do not think 105 or Dura-Ace shares this feature. This makes the 8000's somewhat heavier than the earlier 6800s, but the 8000s are my new favorite rim brakes.

jaxgtr

I've run many versions of the Shimano brakes over the years and they have improved tremendously over the years where the trickle down on the most recent versions make them almost indistinguishable. Where I think you are going to feel a different is in the pads used. There are some pads better than others.

veganbikes

If you want the best upgrade to brakes the calipers generally are the last part I would do. First things would be brake pads and shoes. The shoes should be nice and stiff and the pads should be separate from the shoes and be made from a good compound. I recommend SwissStop or Kool Stop for those. Then I would upgrade cables and housing. For cables you want a good polished stainless steel cable without coatings and for housing a good stiff well made housing ideally one that won't compress. For that I recommend Jagwire Pro or Elite kits which have everything you need to set up.

The final upgrade would then be the calipers and newer 105 to Dura-Ace calipers would be a lower cost upgrade but if you really want to upgrade eeBrakes from Cane Creek while ridiculously expensive are also quite light and work really well if you combine everything you have excellent braking that is hard to improve upon. Obviously better levers would factor in at some point but with a modern STI/Double Tap/Ergopower or similar integrated brake and shift lever you cannot really change those without changing derailleurs and more.

Clydesdale John

I use Swiss Stop pads on all my bikes. They make a big difference!!

Kimmo

Of course you start with setup - file the housing ends flat, ensure no kinks in the cable, overhaul the calipers to minimise friction and slop, clean and adjust pads.

Next step is trying the pads everyone raves about, and ensuring cables are die-drawn to assist modulation. After this point it's fairly diminishing returns.

Except, if you want easier modulation on the rear brake, get rid of the dual pivot - it has far too much leverage. If it takes a minimal amount of effort, say 20%, to lock up the rear, you only have that 20% to work within to modulate the braking. If it takes 60% effort to lock up the rear, you just made it three times easier to finely control the amount of braking.

As mentioned, the dual pivot was refined a few years ago to a symmetric design, which I think might have a bit more leverage again, but I mostly just like it for the symmetry of the pad movement. Oh, and the fact there's a direct mount variant, which sadly didn't have much of a chance to catch on (try finding a direct mount fork if you want that upgrade).

Finally, there's a possibly somewhat significant feature which Ultegra and Dura-Ace have had since '84: little thrust bearings. The single-pivots are functionally identical (except Dura-Ace has more leverage) with twenty tiny balls sandwiched between a couple of steel washers, inset into each caliper arm. On the dual-pivots, Ultegra only has the thrust bearing on the central pivot while Dura-Ace has two of them. In theory the thrust bearings should allow for better modulation by allowing the pivot to be adjusted tighter before there's too much friction, increasing the rigidity of the assembly.

Camilo

Not totally germane to the question, but... My wife had a bike with no-name brake calipers on an otherwise Tiagra 9 speed set up. I don't know if they were something Specialize got from, maybe, Tektro. Anyway, she was complaining about braking, being a senior citizen, small of stature and therefore not as strong as some riders. I swapped them for some similar era 105 brakes with new Ultegra branded pads. She said it made a very positive improvement. I could actually see the difference in flex between the no-name brakes and the 105. I imagine that could be a difference between the lowest level Shimano calipers and 105 and above. I would be surprised to see any functional difference between 105 and up.

Intending to further improve her experience (although she said the 105s with new pads were fine), I bought some Swiss Stop pads ("Salmon") because of the legendary performance and put her like-new Ultegra pads on my bike. She said there's no difference. She grabs the brake lever, the bike stops. That's the same experience I have with the brakes on all my rim brake bikes: I grab the levers and the bike slows if that's my intention, and stops suddenly if that's my intention.