What's STIFFER, Carbon or AL.....?
#1
Dancing on the Pedals
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,021
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What's STIFFER, Carbon or AL.....?
Handlebar, that is.
If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,
Would you go CARBON or AL?
Corsaire
If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,
Would you go CARBON or AL?
Corsaire
#2
Emondafied
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,939
Bikes: See sig
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sounds like a can of worms! Someone's Alu bar might be stiffer than someone else's carbon, and vice versa. We need some sort of a machine to test them on.
__________________
my bike page - my journal
Current Stable: Trek Emonda SL - Trek Top Fuel 8 - Scattante XRL - Jamis Dakar Expert - Trek 9700 -AlpineStars Al Mega
my bike page - my journal
Current Stable: Trek Emonda SL - Trek Top Fuel 8 - Scattante XRL - Jamis Dakar Expert - Trek 9700 -
#3
Keep on climbing
I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
#4
Dancing on the Pedals
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,021
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cydewaze
Sounds like a can of worms! Someone's Alu bar might be stiffer than someone else's carbon, and vice versa. We need some sort of a machine to test them on.
Corsaire
#5
Riding Heavens Highway
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,778
Bikes: '04 Giant TCR
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This might help.
__________________
https://vvbc.us
https://vvbc.us
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 914
Bikes: Trek 1000, Giant TCR Composite 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EdZ
Steel is the stiffest. If you look at any serious track bike, you will see a steel bar and stem combo, most likely Nitto.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...nchtsOG804-410
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...teamsOG804-094
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...q_dsc_0260gane
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...ne200OG804-801
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...5gane_bourgain
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...8gane_bourgain
That said, cydewaze pretty much has it right. Its not the material, its the design.
#10
human
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: living in the moment
Posts: 3,562
Bikes: 2005 Litespeed Teramo, 2000 Marinoni Leggero, 2001 Kona Major Jake (with Campy Centaur), 1997 Specialized S-Works M2, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Corsaire
Handlebar, that is.
If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,
Would you go CARBON or AL?
If your were to choose a STIFF handlebar for sprinting,
Would you go CARBON or AL?
__________________
when walking, just walk. when sitting, just sit. when riding, just ride. above all, don't wobble.
The Irregular Cycling Club of Montreal
Cycling irregularly since 2002
when walking, just walk. when sitting, just sit. when riding, just ride. above all, don't wobble.
The Irregular Cycling Club of Montreal
Cycling irregularly since 2002
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: NYC area
Posts: 129
Bikes: Specialized Allez
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yes, it's a can of worms, but go with Aluminum. Stem and handlebar. Plus it's almost always cheaper.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Leandro
Posts: 2,900
Bikes: Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Basso Loto, Pinarello Stelvio, Redline Cyclocross
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by BigFloppyLlama
oh? That said, cydewaze pretty much has it right. Its not the material, its the design.
#13
IF/Parlee/Sachs/Legend ST
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: East Coast
Posts: 804
Bikes: Parlee, Richard Sachs, Serotta Legend, IF Crown Jewel (2), IF Planet Cross, Serotta CSI (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
For sure go with a alu stem. Those carbon stems are way too expensive and look too bulky. A lot of pro's use the Ritchey WCS alu stems and bars. I have a Ritchey carbon bar and alu bar and I can't tell any difference.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: northern California
Posts: 5,603
Bikes: Bruce Gordon BLT, Cannondale parts bike, Ecodyne recumbent trike, Counterpoint Opus 2, miyata 1000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EdZ
Steel is the stiffest. If you look at any serious track bike, you will see a steel bar and stem combo, most likely Nitto.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by KevinF
I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 914
Bikes: Trek 1000, Giant TCR Composite 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...nchtsOG804-410
edit: and on that note the french riders' bars have no discernable logo while the american bars clearly show an easton logo. What you said is generally true, but certainly not always the case.
#17
Vive L'Orange
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
it would be really cool if there were titanium ones... they would be stiff!
but with stiffness, i like to stick to weight, the heavier it is generally the stiff it is as there is more 'stuff' in there to support it. Like a 300grm carbon bar will proberly be stiffer than a 209grm deda newton.
but with stiffness, i like to stick to weight, the heavier it is generally the stiff it is as there is more 'stuff' in there to support it. Like a 300grm carbon bar will proberly be stiffer than a 209grm deda newton.
#18
Keep on climbing
Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
#19
Know Your Onion!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,011
Bikes: Kestrel Talon, Motobecane Le Champion SL
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by KevinF
I would never make a blanket statement over the usefullness of one material like this. It's 100% dependent on the design of the bars. You can make an aluminum bar that's incredibly flexy or insanely stiff.
Why does everyone think that stiffness is solely a function of frame material?!?!? Engineers are hired to design various parts for a reason.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
steel is not the stiffest , not by a long shot. steel takes longer to fatigue, yes ,but we are talking stiffness, not fatigue rate. i would say go with alumium because even though its possible to get carbon to be stiffer, the cost to reward ratio is too small. You can spend 60percent less on a alumium part and it will be 5 percent less stiff. But if you want specifics, write an email to the companys you have in mind and ask for the "tensile load graphs" for the bars you have in mind
#22
\||||||/
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: pdx
Posts: 1,360
Bikes: highly modified specialized crossroads and GT hybrid (really a [formerly] 12-speed bmx cruiser, made before 'hybrid' took on its current meaning), as yet unmodified redline 925, couple of other projects
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclintom
Pro teams and Olympic riders don't ride on "the best". They ride on the stuff that manufacturers want advertised. And manufacturers want to advertise their most profitable items.
the carbon bars cost a zillion dollars, weigh about a pound, but (if the manufacturer can be believed) deliver the goods.
#23
Faith-Vigilance-Service
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Posts: 8,330
Bikes: Trinity, Paradisus, Centurion, Mongoose, Trek
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I have a set of integrated carbon bars/stem made by Trigon. They are much stiffer than the Aluminum ITM Millenium bar and stem combo on my wifes bike. The weight is about the same. They are however, much more expensive. I think the integration of the bar/stem really helps stiffen things up with this particular set.
__________________
President, OCP
--"Will you have some tea... at the theatre with me?"--
President, OCP
--"Will you have some tea... at the theatre with me?"--
#24
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,136
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3448 Post(s)
Liked 3,595 Times
in
1,802 Posts
Originally Posted by Mothra
With same-size samples, steel is 3x stiffer than alloy and 2x stiffer than titanium. To make an aluminium part just as stiff as steel, you have to make it 3x thicker, and 2x thicker in titanium. Using 60% less material in aluminium will have it be over 6x more flexible than steel.
Young's modulus (E) is a measure of material stiffness. E(steel) ~ 200 GPa, and E(Al) ~ 70 GPa, so steel is about 2.9 times stiffer than aluminum. Density(steel) ~ 7.8 gm/cm^3, Density(Al) ~ 2.7 gm/cm^3, so steel is about 2.86 times heavier than aluminum. Since the ratio of stiffnesses is about the same as the ratio of densities, it's a wash between choosing steel or aluminum for stiffness.
Now if the design is constrained by space (like a square taper bottom bracket spindle), steel wins out. An equally stiff aluminum part would have to be bigger, but there is no way to make the part bigger.
Frame design runs into a different problem. To make a stiff and light steel frame, you need to use large diameter tubing. But a large diameter tube meas thin steel walls, and the tubing becomes too fragile. A small ding in the tube can cause it to collapse like a beer can. Aluminum wins out in this competition for light and stiff frames, since thicker tubing walls prevent the beer can failure problem.
What about carbon fiber tubing? It's tensile stiffness is about half way between steel and Al, but its density is about half that of Al. With those properties, it's no wonder that CF is finding its way into so many parts (bike and aircraft).
#25
Edificating
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,452
Bikes: Spooky + Sachs
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
this thread sure is a *****-fest.. why dont we all just ask the OP why he needs bars so stiff.. then we can probably agree on what he really needs.
__________________
Cat 3 // Dylan M Howell
Cat 3 // Dylan M Howell