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Cyclone rear derailer reassembly issue

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Cyclone rear derailer reassembly issue

Old 11-02-19, 05:28 PM
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thorstein
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Cyclone rear derailer reassembly issue


When I took apart this new to me Cyclone to clean it up I found two little black washers (shown in pic). I'm pretty sure they were sitting inside the pulley bushing cover, like the left one is set up. However when I put it together, it didn't spin well. Upon disassembly, I noticed the cover on the right had the washer imprinted. Do I need those washers (I also cleaned up a Cyclone Mk-II which didn't have those washers)? Where should they go?
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Old 11-02-19, 05:44 PM
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Perhaps they were inserted by someone in the past, for some strange reason.

https://www.yellowjersey.org/CYCLONE2.JPG
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Old 11-02-19, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Vintage_Cyclist View Post
Perhaps they were inserted by someone in the past, for some strange reason.

https://www.yellowjersey.org/CYCLONE2.JPG
Big thanks for the schematic! Odd about the extra washers though.
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Old 11-02-19, 09:14 PM
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Are the pulleys Suntour branded? If so, the small washers shouldn't be there. If not, then maybe they were an attempt to make something else fit.
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Old 11-02-19, 11:09 PM
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I wonder if someone put those washers in there to spread the cage a bit?

Cheers
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Old 11-03-19, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I wonder if someone put those washers in there to spread the cage a bit?

Cheers
...or perhaps trying to make the pulley into a floating pulley? This would be more likely if the washer is slightly smaller on the OD than the pulley bushing.

I did the same thing after upgrading a Suntour drivetrain with HG chain and cassette, and which helped accommodate the over-generous amount of overshift freeplay in the Command Accushift levers. I later discovered that simply using a narrower Shimano chain worked better overall.
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Old 11-03-19, 03:59 AM
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Suntour Cyclone Extra Washers

Those washers are just plain WRONG!

That washer looks munged out of round!

Someone for whatever reason may have tried to increase the width of the pulley cage but back in 1975 when the Cyclone derailleurs came out, 5 speed freewheels were de rigueur.

The "current" standard outside width for 5 & 6 speed chains is 7.8 mm (5/16") NOMINAL. (I know, 5/16" = .3125" = 7.94mm but that's the published spec).

6 speed – 7.8 mm (5/16 in) (all brands) (5 speed too)
7 speed – 7.3 mm (9/32 in) (Shimano HG), 7.1 mm (9/32 in) (SRAM, Shimano IG)
8 speed – 7.3 mm (9/32 in) (Shimano HG), 7.1 mm (9/32 in) (SRAM, Shimano IG)
9 speed – 6.6 to 6.8 mm (1/4 to 9/32 in) (all brands)
10 speed - 6.2 mm (1/4 in) (Shimano, Campy), 5.88 mm (7/32 in) (Campy, KMG)

One possibility is that a previous owner may have had Bullseye Sealed Bearing Pulleys on that derailleur. The bearing width was about 8mm and they came with a bunch of extra washers to put on both sides of the pulleys to fit in 9mm or 10mm wide pulley cages.

When they removed the crazy expensive Bullseye pulleys they put some washers in the wrong place, inside the dust shields???

Real Bullseye pulleys are currently going for $75.00 on eBay!!! BITD we thought that they were exorbitant at $12 a set!




I have them on several old Suntour and Shimano RDs. Been using them since the mid 70's.

The reason why I spent the $12 was not the bullpucky crap about reduced friction but because they ran smoother than the original hard plastic Japanese pulleys which had sharp edges and took forever to wear in.

The aluminum Bullseye pulleys wore in quickly and transmitted less vibrations into the pedals (the Princess and the Pea).

Campy and Simplex pulleys had smoother "teeth" and were not a problem.

About 10+ years back I put one of the Crane RD with Bullseye pulleys on a bike I'd just built up. I used an SRAM PC-48 chain made for 6-7-8 speed cogs.

The new chain was narrower - 7.1mm (9/32") wide and skipped over the tops of the Bullseye pulleys. I filed a slight chamfer on both sides of the pulleys and that solved the problem!



BTW there were 3 different non documented versions of the original Suntour Cyclone RDs.

Suntour did a new product announcement for the Cyclone derailleurs in several of the bicycle trade rags in the fall of 1974. They were vapor ware until mid 1975.

In June of 1975 I brought 2 sets of Cyclone derailleurs into our shop to check them out. They were from the original shipment to hit the US.

I replaced the Campy NR derailleurs on one of my bikes and never went back!

I kept both sets for myself. I still have one of them NOS.

That original Cyclone RD had a 26T maximum FW capacity. The two later versions were limited to 24T (I've run 28T -32T FWs with Campy NR derailleurs for years so when I say 24T Max that's Max!)

Note, supposedly one of the newer versions will handle 26T with a longer dropout hanger but not with a standard Campy dropout. For example, this 1979 version.



verktyg

BTW 2 - the easy way to get some side to side float in the upper pulley for index shifting is to sand or file about .5mm to 1mm off of both sides of the pulley. The lateral float allows the pulley to self center on the sprocket.

This doesn't work with every RD so you'll have to check it out first.

I have several Campy NR rear derailleurs that index shift with Shimano SIS levers. Even in friction mode never have to trim them after every shift.
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Last edited by verktyg; 11-03-19 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 11-03-19, 06:56 PM
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I have a Suntour Cyclone rear derailleur that'll handle a triple or a double with a big rear cog.




Cheers
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Old 11-03-19, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I have a Suntour Cyclone rear derailleur that'll handle a triple or a double with a big rear cog.




Cheers
Or a triple with a 38 big rear cog.
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Old 11-04-19, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jeirvine View Post
Are the pulleys Suntour branded? If so, the small washers shouldn't be there. If not, then maybe they were an attempt to make something else fit.
Yes, the pulleys are Suntour.

Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I wonder if someone put those washers in there to spread the cage a bit?

Cheers
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
...or perhaps trying to make the pulley into a floating pulley? This would be more likely if the washer is slightly smaller on the OD than the pulley bushing.

I did the same thing after upgrading a Suntour drivetrain with HG chain and cassette, and which helped accommodate the over-generous amount of overshift freeplay in the Command Accushift levers. I later discovered that simply using a narrower Shimano chain worked better overall.
I think this might be right.

Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Those washers are just plain WRONG!

That washer looks munged out of round!
The angle might have distorted the image as the actual washer doesn't look out of round.

I removed the cage and took out the washers, everything seems to be running well again - even the messed up dust shield seems not to cause any issues although I think I'll try to find a replacement before I install it on my '89 Voyageur.

Thanks for all the help!
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Old 11-04-19, 11:18 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I have a Suntour Cyclone rear derailleur that'll handle a triple or a double with a big rear cog.




Cheers
I have never seen that version of the Cyclone before. I bet it'd look nice on my Voyageur...

I'm planning to put the Cyclone on to replace the Shimano Light Action that handles 28T in the front & 30T in the rear. I think I'll have to make sure the Cyclone can clear the 30T.
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Old 11-04-19, 11:35 AM
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Don't Try It

Originally Posted by thorstein View Post
I have never seen that version of the Cyclone before. I bet it'd look nice on my Voyageur...

I'm planning to put the Cyclone on to replace the Shimano Light Action that handles 28T in the front & 30T in the rear. I think I'll have to make sure the Cyclone can clear the 30T.
If you are talking about the 3 pulley Cyclone long arm RD, it would work without any problems.

As for the short arm original design... as they used to say in Jinglish slang in Japan in the 1960's "Neba hatchy boysan"!

24T rear, maybe 26T - I'm talking about freewheel size/tooth count, not derailleur capacity.

Derailleurs were rated using a complex method of calculating the difference between the teeth count or a simplified way of just stating the largest and smallest size sprocket the derailleur could handle which included chain wrap capacity and chain clearance.

The short arm Cyclone RDs could handle 52-42T chainrings with a 24T or maybe a 26T FW.

BTW, from the Suntour V derailleurs of the early 70's on, the short arm RDs were designed for competition use and rated at 24T maximum FW size.

For wider range gearing, Suntour became famous for their excellent medium and long arm derailleurs. Their patented design was coveted by other derailleur manufactures for several decades.

PS, I wouldn't worry about the dust shields as they remain stationary because the are lock in place by the pulley bushing when the screw is tightened and they don't rotate.

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Old 11-04-19, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
If you are talking about the 3 pulley Cyclone long arm RD, it would work without any problems.

As for the short arm original design... as they used to say in Jinglish slang in Japan in the 1960's "Neba hatchy boysan"!

24T rear, maybe 26T - I'm talking about freewheel size/tooth count, not derailleur capacity.

They could handle 52-42T with a 24T or maybe a 26T FW.

BTW, from the Suntour V derailleurs of the early 70's on, the short arm RDs were designed for competition use and rated at 24T maximum FW size.

Trust those who through trial and error or mistakes have "been there, done that"!

verktyg
The Cyclone I have is the GT long cage version. The Disreali Gears page shows a maximum cog of 32T, so I think I'd be fine.

I also have the Mk-II which is listed as being capable of 34T and which also might suit the era of my '89 Voyageur better.
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Old 11-04-19, 12:04 PM
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My Mistake About The Derailleur Model

Originally Posted by thorstein View Post
The Cyclone I have is the GT long cage version. The Disreali Gears page shows a maximum cog of 32T, so I think I'd be fine.

I also have the Mk-II which is listed as being capable of 34T and which also might suit the era of my '89 Voyageur better.
My mistake!

I didn't catch the long arm pulley cage in your first picture or the parts breakdown.

That's a Cyclone GT model which came out in late 1975. My descriptions of capacities refer to the short arm original version. I'm going to leave them posted because the info may help someone else.

Side note, aside from cleaning and re-greasing the pulleys, I've only taken apart a few Suntour rear derailleurs. My Cyclones have never needed more than that.

BITD (1970's) Suntour RDs were so cheap (inexpensive) that few ever bothered working on them, it was easier to just replace them.

Suntour V short arm RDs sold form ~$6.00 retail and the long arm versions sold for ~$7.00! (as opposed to Campy Nuovo Record RDs that went for $29-$39).

Good luck with your project.

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