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Training plans vs. coaching vs. self-coaching

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Old 05-25-18, 11:29 AM
  #1  
DJH8098
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Training plans vs. coaching vs. self-coaching

I have been coaching for a few years now and have started writing preformed training plans on Trainingpeaks. This aspect of the business has flourished in the last few months and I'm curious what have you used to train? Have you reached out to a coach, found a similar plan on Trainingpeaks, or have you found a free plan on the internet somewhere or something completely different? Do you feel as though you have gotten everything from your training? What would you do differently if you could? If you have used a coach in the past was it a great experience or was it lackluster, and what could they have done to help you perform better?

Just trying to better understand the market as a whole.
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Old 05-25-18, 11:50 AM
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I've never used a coach. I read articles on livestrong and bodybuilder type sites. What I've found is everyone has an opinion and they all disagree to some extent. That's fine by me, I take the information that is helpful to me and use it.
I'm not training for anything specific, I cycle and lift because I love it. I don't need the motivation of others to get me to the gym or on the bike.
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Old 05-25-18, 12:25 PM
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I haven't found canned training plans to be very useful. They can't take into account the variations in athletes and goals, which are quite extreme. I've been self-coached for 20 years and write my own training plans based on my experience. I'd hire a coach if I could justify the expense, which I can't. Self-coaching is tough because of only having the one data stream to learn from, unlike a coach who may have had hundreds to look at and learn from. Every year I experiment a bit and learn something front that, but it's very, very slow. It really takes a whole year's periodization before one learns how it all turned out.

I have my records going back that 20 years, but every year's different: older, equipment changes, different weather, different goals, etc.
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Old 05-25-18, 03:09 PM
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When I first started cycling, I trained with a charity-sponsored group that offered some limited coaching. It was enough to get me started.

Following that, I started using TrainerRoad and have been very pleased with it. I have also continued with the aforementioned group rides.

Between the two, I have experienced marked improvements in FTP and overall performance.
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Old 05-25-18, 03:10 PM
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I weight train with a personal trainer 1X per week and do indoor workouts on TrainerRoad 3X per week. Both of these appeal to me because a.) I don't have to do any thinking and b.) I'm being babysat throughout my workouts.

I ride outdoors 2X per week, either both on the road or 1 road / 1 MTB. I have one rest day that I spend either doing nothing or e-biking for active recovery.

I'm comfortable where I am now, but if I had to start all over, I'd want a coach who prescribes gym training, indoor workouts, and outdoor solo and group rides. The gym training should include a stretching plan because most cyclists are stiff as a board.

Accountability is important. If someone told me, "hey, Saturday morning 7:30AM, you're doing this group ride", I'll do it. Otherwise I might "accidentally" wake up 20 min late and miss the group ride.
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Old 05-25-18, 03:24 PM
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My fitness goals are pretty basic. Finish an SR series every year and maintain my weight. @Carbonfiberboy has been my best source of training and nutrition information for achieving those goals hands-down. I suppose if I were looking to significantly improve my times I would consider a coach, but brevets aren't races so what's the point really.
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Old 05-25-18, 03:38 PM
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I've done a little from each column. I used a canned TP program one winter. It wasn't perfect, but it gave me structure, which was the main benefit. Then I worked with a coach for a few seasons (he was a teammate working on his Masters in Ex.Phys.). I kept a lot of his workouts and update them based on my own feedback. Now I put together my own plan based on my coach's old plan, the Coggan-Friel PM book, and the training thread in the 33.
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Old 05-26-18, 10:59 PM
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I've never needed a coach or trainer to motivate me but have needed them to steer me toward better techniques and to check my ergonomics to ensure I was executing those techniques correctly.

And depending on the sport and individuals, the coach/trainer may be one person or may need to be two people doing very different jobs. Some folks do need trainers to ensure they stick to the plan and execute it correctly. The coach comes into play when the trainer's physical fitness regime is put into play in competition, or methodical training that simulates competition, against live human opponents.
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Old 05-26-18, 11:01 PM
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When I first started riding seriously, I just rode increasing volume which got me through my initial goal- a metric century.

Then I decided to ride a few century rides of varying difficulty and I tried using canned plans from the Time Crunched Cyclist. It was better than nothing but I’m a woman in her 50s with an atypical schedule (limited time M-Th and only before dawn + essentially unlimited time Fr-Sun) and my goals did not involve mass start racing. The canned plans are most designed for men racing events of approx an hour in duration and they didn’t completely apply to me. But I didn’t have enough experience/knowledge to modify the plans or to figure out how to make them work with my schedule of weekend-intensive riding. I’m sure the canned plans were not ideal even if they were better than nothing.

Then I wanted to ride a double century and do well in some timed fondo like climbing endurance rides, so I hired a coach. He was worse than a canned training plan, in that it seemed after a few months that he was just providing a weird “canned plan” of his own illogical design that he applied to all “beginners”.

After 3 months, I left that coach and switched to my current coach who I’ve now been working with for 3.5 years. Suffice it to say, I’m very happy with him. Very engaging challenging workouts. A training plan optimized for me- taking into account my goals, my gender, my age, my physiology, my psychology, my life off the bike- preferences, desires, constraints. It’s the hugest luxury to just have a schedule and never have to think or worry about it. I’ve met all the goals I’ve set with him- finishing my double century, placing top 10 in my climbing fondo series, podiuming the State TT Championship in my first year of TTing and winning it my second. I get nothing but positives from this coaching relationship, zero complaints.

PS I’m always surprised when I hear people say that a coach should be a motivator or that a coach creates accountability. This is completely not the case for me, I’m 100% self motivated and accountable for my own actions. In fact, one of the things I like about my coach is that he doesn’t tell me what to do. He provides me with a training plan and advice that will help me meet my goals. It’s up to me to buy into the plan and to decide how seriously I want to take my own goals. No pressure from him. I’ve learned that the best route to achieving my goals is to follow the plan. But if I don’t want to or am not enjoying it or want to modify my goals, fine. All it takes is communicating what I’m thinking and we can modify and move on. No problemo.
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Old 05-27-18, 06:52 AM
  #10  
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My perspective on the current "coaching" environment is from being coached in the Old School by a pre-WWII board track racer, a Hard-Man ethos Belgian ex-pat 'Cross coach and going through the "new" USCF coaching certification program w/ Eddie B. and Dr. Burke in the '70's.

What I see locally are some very strong riders who lack basic bike handling skills, think that Echelon is a fancy French restaurant on the Riverwalk and ride with the tactical sophistication of a Cub Scout troop.

Power meters, bike computers, HR monitors and the good old stopwatch are great tools for working on Power & Speed and do nothing to learn how to ride a straight line.
Where is the emphasis on Operational Control of the machine, inculcation of pace-line techniques/etiquette and basic tactics that are fundamental to bike racing in current remote control "coaching"? If not work on the fundamentals of bike handling and know which way the wind is blowing from.

Does "coaching" provide a simple, repeatable start line method to get off the line in a powerful wobble-free holes-hot launch w/o the clip-in fumbling and monkey motion we see at every Crit start?
Bike racing is not all about "the numbers", like any tool know what you are paying for in "coaching" and use it for what it is.


-Bandera

Last edited by Bandera; 05-27-18 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 05-27-18, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandera
My perspective on the current "coaching" environment is from being coached in the Old School by a pre-WWII board track racer, a Hard-Man ethos Belgian ex-pat 'Cross coach and going through the "new" USCF coaching certification program w/ Eddie B. and Dr. Burke in the '70's.

What I see locally are some very strong riders who lack basic bike handling skills, think that Echelon is a fancy French restaurant on the Riverwalk and ride with the tactical sophistication of a Cub Scout troop.

Power meters, bike computers, HR monitors and the good old stopwatch are great tools for working on Power & Speed and do nothing to learn how to ride a straight line.
Where is the emphasis on Operational Control of the machine, inculcation of pace-line techniques/etiquette and basic tactics that are fundamental to bike racing in current remote control "coaching"? If not work on the fundamentals of bike handling and know which way the wind is blowing from.

Does "coaching" provide a simple, repeatable start line method to get off the line in a powerful wobble-free holes-hot launch w/o the clip-in fumbling and monkey motion we see at every Crit start?
Bike racing is not all about "the numbers", like any tool know what you are paying for in "coaching" and use it for what it is.


-Bandera
“Back in the day” who taught these things? Bike Clubs, I presume.

The quickest easiest was for USAC to “fix” the declining sport of bike racing is to require a few things:
1. To race USAC sanctioned events, you must be a member of a USAC cycling club
2. To be a club, you must put on one race or racing clinic per year
3. To be a club, your membership must be comprised of 25% women, and 10% of men, 5% of women must be actively racing.
<4. Undecided as to whether there should be a further requirement that X% of the club must be juniors, in some ways I think juniors might thrive in junior-only clubs>
5. Promoters may still put on races but club events get priority when the race calendar is made(within reason, the idea is to ensure clubs have adequate opportunity to fulfill their obligation to put on a race or clinic annually).
6. Club races may offer prizes but are encouraged to roll some percentage of proceeds into their racing program and the rest into a local charity, to build love cal support.
7. Ideally races would have something of an educational mission and the public would be invited to spectate. It would be useful for USAC to provide posters and educational materials for curious cyclists.

This would result imo in more larger clubs and less small ones. You’d need a big pool of people to have enough volunteers to put on races, you’d incentivize inclusion of women, you’d incentivize racing people to interact with and accommodate non racing cyclists in the same club, and you’d prioritize racing. If you prioritize racing, there’s going to be teaching. Exposure to the sport is huge, even just being in a club that talks about racing will mean some people want to try. But not everyone is going to want to try and the club would need those volunteer bodies for races. My vision is that some other non-competitive contingent develops as well- an endurance group, or planning an annual tour locally, or mountain bike skills, or epic gravel races ridden just to finish or whatever.
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Old 05-28-18, 09:34 AM
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I had a coach when I was a junior/u23. I overtrained quite a bit.

Now I train myself, primarily by feel and specificity, i.e. what specific aspect of fitness I need to do to perform well. Done that for the last four years and have had my best racing years ever.

I wouldn't pay for a coach now. They're ridiculously overpriced for what's provided. I can see how brand new bike racers might want it, but after a year or two I think it's a ripoff. A little self-reflection and analysis goes a very long way. Flexibility is so paramount that training plans have to be extremely adaptable. Experience helps a lot; explaining every thing that pops up to a coach in the hopes of an adjustment would be irritating.
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Old 05-28-18, 01:02 PM
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I've been doing group rides every Sunday for over 20 years. They can be quite competitive. I train just so I can do these rides. I can instantly see how my training is going by how I do. That's been very helpful. It's also taught me bike handling, cooperation, pacelining, timing, all that good stuff. My fellow riders taught me to ride. The first ride I did with what would become my riding group taught me that much of what I had been doing in my solo rides and training was wrong. Bingo. I'm still trying to give some of that back. The only way to tell what's working is to test it continually in a group ride or race situation. Besides, it's super fun and one meets the nicest people.
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Old 05-29-18, 07:34 AM
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This is awesome feedback from everyone! I'm curious if we can play the money is not an option game. If you have unlimited funds would you hire a coach or would you continue to use your current training method? Also I offer different clinics to my athletes, has anyone on here done a camp/clinic in the last year or so? If so what was something new you learned or another way of approaching a problem that we as athletes incounter?
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Old 05-29-18, 04:10 PM
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I have limited funds and I am obviously sticking with the coaching.

I am registered for a women's mountain biking clinic but have not done any clinics per se this past year. I have done private mtb instruction/guiding in the past, some of it was good and some was not that good.

I have spent a couple of extended periods of times vacation-riding with coach. That is primarily a social thing but I learned quite a bit the last time, which was 10 days of mountain biking last summer. A little bit of explicit instruction but more learning by osmosis.

I've done two aerotesting sessions with my coach in the past year. Learned a lot but these sessions were run by our fitter and most of what was learned was generated by the fitter's data. We've worked a fair bit of TT fit- some of that face to face and some of it via video and photos.

Generally I've not had tons of interest in camps or clinics, mostly because they seem to focus on large volumes of riding in a short period of time which typically doesn't fit well into my training arc. Something like mountain biking makes more sense to me, working on skills is an in-person type of thing. A camp that is about "ideas" that could be conveyed in writing (like nutrition or training principles) is not of huge interest to me, mostly because there is no need to work face to face with someone on stuff like this.
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Old 05-29-18, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
This is awesome feedback from everyone! I'm curious if we can play the money is not an option game. If you have unlimited funds would you hire a coach or would you continue to use your current training method? Also I offer different clinics to my athletes, has anyone on here done a camp/clinic in the last year or so? If so what was something new you learned or another way of approaching a problem that we as athletes incounter?
For me, it's more about value than cost. You can have a high hourly rate if you bring a lot of value to the table.

A valuable coach to me should be up to date on training methods and equipment. I shouldn't have to teach the coach about TrainerRoad and Zwift because he/she's allergic to technology.

He/she should also have connections with local cycling clubs (and racing teams), and have a broad understanding of everything associated with cycling - weight training, nutrition, and maybe stuff like yoga.
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Old 05-30-18, 06:30 AM
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@Heatpack that is quite a bit of extra training. Wind tunnel stuff is awesome if you are within a days drive! As far as the camps/clinics the ones that your coach has done seem great. I do agree that 7+ day camps are intense, and not doable by most people either because they have to work or because it is too much riding/teaching happening to retain. I try and keep mine focused on 2-3 days, they mainly focus on road and triathlon skills. That is my main coaching demographic with a little bit of cross sprinkled throughout the year. Most of my camps are focused on tactics of a race, how to set up your bike before hand, etc. It may seem like things everyone knows, but a lot of my athletes are new to the sports and need help. You'd also be surprised with the "veterans" that come in thinking that they have been around the sport and know everything that walk out thinking that was a totally different way to do something. Have you asked your coach to maybe try a weekend camp for road cycling skills?
@colombo357 I 100% agree that the value of what the coach brings to the table is what should be the focus. Would you justify using a coach remotely? They may not understand your local scene but they have coached athletes that have competed in national races or have coached racers at highly competitive parts of the country that have done very well. The biggest challenges that I have faced with remote athletes is syncing schedules to communicate about the training at hand. It does happen but it takes about 2-4 weeks of working with the athlete to find a good time to set up a video chat time. It is sometimes very difficult to keep an athlete set on that time every other week as well. Some of my athletes opt for a once a month call but the majority ask for every other week if possible.
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Old 05-30-18, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
@Heatpack that is quite a bit of extra training. Wind tunnel stuff is awesome if you are within a days drive! As far as the camps/clinics the ones that your coach has done seem great. I do agree that 7+ day camps are intense, and not doable by most people either because they have to work or because it is too much riding/teaching happening to retain. I try and keep mine focused on 2-3 days, they mainly focus on road and triathlon skills. That is my main coaching demographic with a little bit of cross sprinkled throughout the year. Most of my camps are focused on tactics of a race, how to set up your bike before hand, etc. It may seem like things everyone knows, but a lot of my athletes are new to the sports and need help. You'd also be surprised with the "veterans" that come in thinking that they have been around the sport and know everything that walk out thinking that was a totally different way to do something. Have you asked your coach to maybe try a weekend camp for road cycling skills?
@colombo357 I 100% agree that the value of what the coach brings to the table is what should be the focus. Would you justify using a coach remotely? They may not understand your local scene but they have coached athletes that have competed in national races or have coached racers at highly competitive parts of the country that have done very well. The biggest challenges that I have faced with remote athletes is syncing schedules to communicate about the training at hand. It does happen but it takes about 2-4 weeks of working with the athlete to find a good time to set up a video chat time. It is sometimes very difficult to keep an athlete set on that time every other week as well. Some of my athletes opt for a once a month call but the majority ask for every other week if possible.
A year or so ago, my fitter began offering a ride-along fit service (because he recognizes that fit when someone is out moving on the open road can be different from fit on a stationary trainer). He was telling me that he was surprised at how much these turned into little coaching sessions on “how to ride a bike”. A lot of triathletes especially- people would just ride straight into a pothole with no attempt to avoid it, or come to a hill and just keep pedaling in the same gear without shifting. Especially triathletes, sometimes not newbies either, pretty strong racers. He was surprised, he didn’t realize the extent to which a lot of them do their workouts on the trainer and almost exclusively ride solo, way less chance to learn from other people.

So I get it that you don’t always know what you don’t know. I’m sure I have stuff to learn on the road, I’ve not been riding that long, just 5 years. But I have ridden everything with my coach- road, TT, track and mtb. The only thing I’m racing right now is TT and that’s pretty straightforward. We for sure talk strategy on TTs all the time- I decide how I want to ride my splits based on where I am in training, the course and environmental conditions. Post race, I critique my effort, he gets that assessment in my notes attached to my data file. Then I get his take on it. If it’s an important race, we may go through strategy pre-race but I think letting me figure it out as much as possible is important.

I feel like if there’s something I’m glaringly doing wrong on any of the bikes, he’d have brought it up already based on the riding we’ve done. If he offered a weekend clinic, I’d go, I’m sure it would be valuable even if it’s some kind of racing I don’t do. But I wouldn’t ask him to do it, he already goes above and beyond. Besides I’m sure if I asked him, his response would just be to invite me up to his house for a weekend with the idea that we could work on whatever we want.

I noticed that he goes out of his way to try to see the people he coaches on a bike. I’m sure it’s so he can intervene and correct glaring mistakes, and to get an idea of how skilled or not you may be. I let him run the show entirely and trust him to make sure I get what I need. I also recognize that I’m not paying him enough that my cycling should become the center of his life.
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Old 05-30-18, 10:23 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
This is awesome feedback from everyone! I'm curious if we can play the money is not an option game. If you have unlimited funds would you hire a coach or would you continue to use your current training method? Also I offer different clinics to my athletes, has anyone on here done a camp/clinic in the last year or so? If so what was something new you learned or another way of approaching a problem that we as athletes incounter?
Started cycling 2013 and got a coach in 2015 just for Crits and that worked perfectly as i was able to finish Crits, yes that's a goal
2016 got a new coach that was on a different level and also being in the same state, he knew what to expect in all major road races in the state. Great coach why? Asked feedback after every workout, interesting variation of workouts & listened to suggestions. Saw the biggest improvement during that phase as my ftp was 270. Broke collarbone last year and not sure i want a coach yet as i'm doing Zwift 4 week ftp bootser & i can tell a difference within a week.
If i had unlimited funds, yes i would hire a coach.
The only clinic i attended was a 15 minutes clinic before our regular Saturday group ride where we had to learn how to pick up a water bottle while on bike.
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Old 05-30-18, 12:47 PM
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The mostly ignored elephant in the room of cycling as a sport is that we are first and foremost operating vehicles, sometimes on public roads, dirt trails or velodromes.
Any "coaching" that does not address the operational control of the vehicle from proper fit through control operation and the physics of single track vehicle operation at speed is deficient at best and possibly downright dangerous.
FTP and Big power numbers?
How about being able to ride a straight line while taking a drink or enter a descending decreasing radius off camber corner at pace with calm solid technique?
Lots of people who own bicycles are strong, some are fast as well, many are actually not in firm operational control of their vehicle a fair good bit of the time.
Speed sells, Skills are boring.
Guess what you pay for in today's remote control "coaching"?

Oddly enough it is possible to simultaneously develop adaption to the machine, bike handling skills, endurance, power and speed while learning the techniques and etiquette of riding in a group by joining a local cycling club with a mentoring/coaching program. Old School but effective and an entree into being able to ride with the truly strong, capable and very, very fast folk in the sport. At that point a good coach with proven results however arraigned in person and/or via techno-whiz might well be a good idea.

-Bandera

Last edited by Bandera; 05-30-18 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 05-30-18, 01:39 PM
  #21  
colombo357
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
@colombo357 I 100% agree that the value of what the coach brings to the table is what should be the focus. Would you justify using a coach remotely? They may not understand your local scene but they have coached athletes that have competed in national races or have coached racers at highly competitive parts of the country that have done very well.
It's not a dealbreaker, but wouldn't be ideal.

When I think of coaching, I think back in the day of high school athletics. All I had to do was show up after school. The coaches would tell us who, where, and when we were competing.
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Old 05-30-18, 01:46 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
This is awesome feedback from everyone! I'm curious if we can play the money is not an option game. If you have unlimited funds would you hire a coach or would you continue to use your current training method? Also I offer different clinics to my athletes, has anyone on here done a camp/clinic in the last year or so? If so what was something new you learned or another way of approaching a problem that we as athletes incounter?
As I posted in another thread, I used Hal Higdon's training plan for a 10K, won my age group. As I recall I went for the free option, website download.

The big disconnect for me is the one size fits all approach. The training plans are not age weighted, weight weighted, gender specific, fitness level tuned...you get the picture. If I am paying, my expectation is the coaching is tuned for my realities. So what's generally available is better than nothing, but a coaching program that incorporates your past and present would do a much better job of hitting realistic goals and providing an appropriate level of recovery time.

I have paid for coaches for my kids, and it's usually been technique/goals specific given their strengths and weaknesses. Frankly, I think the clinic approach is mostly worthless, more social event than coaching.

Last edited by FrenchFit; 05-30-18 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 05-30-18, 02:41 PM
  #23  
DJH8098
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@Bandera I agree, it is a huge oversight that occurs. Everyone is busy trying to up their FTP and not focusing on the small stuff that does matter but seems unimportant. Similar to how some people jump into Crossfit or something similar with no physical fitness background, or they have been on a couch for twenty plus years. They jump head first and wonder why injuries occur. Same thing can happen if the first time you ride with a new pack and you do not know basic skills you can seriously injure yourself and anyone else riding with you.
@FrenchFit this is the biggest downfall with training plans in my opinion. We as coaches try to make them to appeal to a broad audience, and sometimes we are spot on and sometimes we miss. I believe that the majority of the people that do purchase training plans are newer athletes. These athletes are okay with the idea that this may not be perfect, but this is the easiest way to start. I have never taken a poll, but the majority of the athletes that purchase plans from me email before hand. The vast majority of those emails contain some form of the phrase "this is my first event at this distance and I have no idea where to start". That being said most of the people who purchase coaching services have been down that path and they know they want to succeed at a higher level then those that are just beginning their journey. That being said I have had beginners that have gone with a full head of steam and decided they want the full coaching experience.
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Old 06-08-18, 10:43 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by DJH8098
I have been coaching for a few years now and have started writing preformed training plans on Trainingpeaks. This aspect of the business has flourished in the last few months and I'm curious what have you used to train? Have you reached out to a coach, found a similar plan on Trainingpeaks, or have you found a free plan on the internet somewhere or something completely different? Do you feel as though you have gotten everything from your training? What would you do differently if you could? If you have used a coach in the past was it a great experience or was it lackluster, and what could they have done to help you perform better?

Just trying to better understand the market as a whole.
With help from books on training and a lot of experimentation, I have had generally good results over the last couple of decades.

Having decided last year to move most of my training indoors, I decided to try TrainerRoad with low expectations and mainly just to see what all the fuss was about. Not surprisingly, I immediately ran into problems with inadequate recovery, ditched the software, and began looking for an alternative better suited to my needs.

Not finding anything appealing, I resorted to a semi-manual process requiring separate steps to export, parse, manipulate and import workout data into an analytics tool I use for work. Shortly thereafter, I decided to just automate the process from end-to-end. Now, I have all the metrics I need within seconds of getting off the trainer.

What I found surprising during my brief search of available tools and the discussions I've witnessed in forums like this one is how quick athletes are to hand over control of their training to others.

Fortunately, I expect to see some exciting developments on that front soon!
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Old 06-11-18, 09:02 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu
Not finding anything appealing, I resorted to a semi-manual process requiring separate steps to export, parse, manipulate and import workout data into an analytics tool I use for work. Shortly thereafter, I decided to just automate the process from end-to-end. Now, I have all the metrics I need within seconds of getting off the trainer.
Care to share what & how you track things? After years of tinkering now just use Xert as it pretty much does the whole training loop; both indoors and outdoors.
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