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Informal Reviews on Track Wheels

Old 11-09-18, 08:43 PM
  #176  
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I tested a (no name) 5 spoke, hed3, Jet9 and disc at A2 wind tunnel a year or two ago on a Fuji track elite.

If you pick a legitimate wheel it's tough to go wrong in my n=1
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Old 11-09-18, 11:00 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
I tested a (no name) 5 spoke, hed3, Jet9 and disc at A2 wind tunnel a year or two ago on a Fuji track elite.

If you pick a legitimate wheel it's tough to go wrong in my n=1
What were your results? I'm pretty curious how much difference a front disc makes. Seems like everyone in Japan has one except me!
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Old 11-09-18, 11:10 PM
  #178  
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Pay close attention to the names of those posting in this thread, and even closer to what is written

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...ics)_P5988702/
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Old 11-10-18, 07:39 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Pay close attention to the names of those posting in this thread, and even closer to what is written

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...ics)_P5988702/
That's the thread! ^It was the Aussies!
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Old 11-10-18, 07:51 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post


Whatís your review of the FFWD 5? Curious about that
It seems fine. I got it near the end of the race season, so I don't have a lot of time on it. But I spoke with several people, and it got positive reviews from all.
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Old 11-10-18, 07:54 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
What were your results? I'm pretty curious how much difference a front disc makes. Seems like everyone in Japan has one except me!
Without just giving away for free what I paid a considerable amount to find out... if you're losing timed events and get off the bike thinking "where could I have found that extra couple of seconds" then it's probably worth buying a front disc. It's in the realm of choosing a good track tyre vs. a Vittoria Speed / pink Dugast.

*Tons of caveats to my results - including as SuperD mentioned fork/wheel interaction (flat disc vs. lenticular might make more or less difference on x bike) tyre/rim interaction (the H3/Jet were clinchers... I suspect the tyres I was running on them were likely more aero than the tubular Corsa Evo's on the other wheels.

If I were making broad guesses... I'd run a disc any time it was allowed (again, talking in terms of pursuit, so not really accounting for stiffness/etc) with the narrowest super high end tyre that would fit on it. Outdoors I'd run the deepest narrowest wheel I felt comfortable on, again, with the narrowest best rolling tyre. Accounting for watts to spin make you think that'd be an H3 or possibly an H3Deep, but it's hard to measure that for sure. Outdoors the "fastest" of those wheels might change from ride to ride based on how the wind changes... lots of variables.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:28 AM
  #182  
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More:



https://fitwerx.com/relentless-pursu...ike-aero-test/

About the author:
Dean combines his mechanical engineering background with real world testing, training, and competition in cycling and triathlon. Deanís comprehensive approach to rider positioning and product selection has benefited countless road cyclists and triathletes at all levels. Regarded as a leading industry authority in aerodynamics and bike positioning, he spends hundreds of hours each year field testing and analyzing the aerodynamic and mechanical properties of body positions and cycling equipment.
https://fitwerx.com/about-us/our-staff/#fitwerx2

EDIT:
Oh, and there's this:



My best effort this year in Manchester gave me a time of 3:25.70 Ė 0.75 seconds shy of the world record.
He's the guy in the middle

Last edited by carleton; 11-10-18 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Fixed image links.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:39 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I do not know whether the Zipp track wheels are better. Carleton says they are. My coach says they are not. (I listened to my coach.)
In every head to head test I've seen or heard of, the 808 out-performs or ties-with the Io.

Just because something has 5 spokes doesn't make it fast

Watch this:

Note how EV-ER-RY SIN-GLE TT WHEEL marketed towards road TT and triathlete TT riders (the big money sector of cycling) are all deep rim or 3 spoke wheels. Not one 5 spoke. NOT ONE

Actually only HED has a 3 spoke.

If 5 spokes were faster, they would be touted as such.

Citations:
https://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/black-series/


https://www.zipp.com/wheels/

https://enve.com/product-discipline/...egories=wheels

https://www.all3sports.com/collections/wheels

It's not hard to make a 5 spoke. If they were faster, road TT folks would use them to go faster. Yes, some road TT people have used them. But, the vast majority use deep carbons wheels or tri-spokes.

The numbers just are not there. If they were, Mavic would wave them in everyone's face
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Old 11-10-18, 10:48 AM
  #184  
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Hell, Mavic doesn't even list the Io on its own page of TT wheels: https://shop.mavic.com/en-us/road-an...on/wheels.html



If that doesn't make my point, I don't know what will.

"But, the the reason the Io isn't offered as a road TT wheel is because it doesn't have a brake track!"

lol...they sell the Io for $4,000 USD. You think they are technically incapable of adding a brake track for that kind of money?? Pfffft. They know that the TT crowd would laugh them off of the scene if they did so. So, they just milk the trackies.

(for the record, I've owned the older Io & Comete and 2 sets of front/rear 808s and 900 disc)
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Old 11-10-18, 06:06 PM
  #185  
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My point was not about the aerodynamics of the wheels but the stiffness. My Zipp 404 road wheels were not stiff enough for me for match sprinting. My coach is not a fan of Zipps track offerings, from a stiffness perspective. The Zipps may be more aerodynamic and faster for pursuits and TTs (road and track) - the evidence certainly seems to support that.

But that aerodynamic advantage is useless if I don't have confidence in my equipment and race tentatively as a result.
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Old 11-10-18, 06:33 PM
  #186  
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Track 404s and 808s are *very* stiff.

Iím a clysdale that rode them at over 40mph in DLVís, Superdromeís, and ADTís tight turns.

The road 404s and 808s are made to be light. The track 404s and 808s to be stiff.

Last edited by carleton; 11-10-18 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 11-10-18, 07:38 PM
  #187  
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To be clear:

I hold as Fact:
- That the Zipp 808 track front wheel is as fast and strong as any other on the market based on the data and tests that I’ve seen, including the Macic Io, HED Trispoke, and FFWD 5 Spoke. I also base this on my personal experience having owned pre-Firecrest and Firecrest 808s (front/rear) and older Mavic Io/Comete sets and used them extensively.
- That the Mavic Io is not head and shoulders above other options like it used to be when it was introduced, what, 15-20 years ago? Everyone else has simply caught up. It is bling, though
- The Io is certainly not worth $4,000 USD. Period.

I hold as Opinion:
- That the 808 track front wheel is the fastest available. That’s the wheelset I bought last season.

Last edited by carleton; 11-10-18 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:33 PM
  #188  
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Corima makes a three spoke wheel for those that are interested. Unlike the HED, its spokes are canted slightly forward. I haven't seen any data of its faster, although corima has also canted the spokes on their quad spoke as well, whereas the previous generation spokes that were centered around the hub.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:34 PM
  #189  
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Also, the iO is still a fast wheel. It has been used on the road for TTs, namely a super fast Giro prologue where a few top favourites used it as a front wheel.
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Old 11-11-18, 10:11 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
More:

So according to this data, the Zipp pair on clinchers is faster that double discs on tubulars. Hmm.

The problem I have with this is that over the last couple of seasons world-level squads are no longer married to the Mavic product, and we've seen a much greater variety of wheels being used at top level. But what are the teams still using for TT's? Across the board, double discs and tubulars. So, hmm.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:36 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
So according to this data, the Zipp pair on clinchers is faster that double discs on tubulars. Hmm.
Yup. The Conti Supersonic (clincher) has always been a fast tire.

Anecdotally, I once set a PB F200 on Mavic Ellipse with Conti Supersonic tires in training...faster than times I was clocking with the IO/Comete set I had as well at the time.

Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
The problem I have with this is that over the last couple of seasons world-level squads are no longer married to the Mavic product, and we've seen a much greater variety of wheels being used at top level. But what are the teams still using for TT's? Across the board, double discs and tubulars. So, hmm.
My hunch is that Mavic is no longer sponsoring as many teams. I have no info to back this.

On a related note, when last I asked, Zipp did not fully (as in 100% free or pay athletes to use) sponsor any riders or teams. The most they would offer any rider was the pro deal where riders got stuff slightly under a bike shop's wholesale cost. I got this info from a national-level rider who was sponsored by SRAM/Zipp as well as a bike shop manager who worked directly with Zipp to coordinate sponsorships.

From their website:

All sponsorships are in the form of Grassroots or "pro-deal" sponsorship via our wonderful retail network.
They do list teams and athletes on their website: https://www.zipp.com/athletes/. Based on the statement from their website above, I can only assume that these teams and athletes still buy the SRAM/Zipp gear.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:46 AM
  #192  
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Now, let's say that the info on Zipp's website is true. And the info that we saw on SlowTwitch is also true (that Mavic pays teams to ride their wheels).

If you were a team manager on a shoestring budget and you had to get wheels for your team and your options were:
- Pay slightly less than wholesale for wheels from Zipp
- Get paid money by Mavic to ride Mavic wheels

What would you do?
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Old 11-12-18, 05:58 AM
  #193  
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I'm saying that since Mavic no longer pays (or whatever reason there is for every single national team no longer being on Mavic) that the field is now more open, and we've been seeing other wheel makers represented at the top level (Corima, Campy, Ayaya/Realize, PRO, FFWD, I think I've even seen Lightweight). However, I have yet to see any pursuiters, kilo/500 riders, or even any of the recent (very well funded) hour record riders on an 808/900 (super 9?). I'm thinking that more than a couple of these folks have access to aero testing and the budget for any wheels they want. Just sayin, it's a little curious if the aero results are as cut and dried as you/Zipp are presenting them that basically nobody at top level is using that pair. Not that Zipp aren't a fine pair of wheels.
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Old 11-12-18, 06:02 AM
  #194  
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[QUOTE
What would you do?[/QUOTE]

And I think if I was this manager and my job was riding on getting Olympic/WC medals that I'd be damned sure my athletes had the fastest kit available. Think Team GB can't afford to buy wheels if it needs something faster?
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Old 11-12-18, 08:46 AM
  #195  
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One of the reasons I think you keep seeing full carbon wheels at the top levels is not just for aero reasons. How a wheel handles and responds (objectively and subjectively) is also going to play a large part in wheel choice.

As a small aside, spoked wheels also require "more" maintenance than a carbon wheels does. On a national team level, that adds up.
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Old 11-12-18, 10:54 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
And I think if I was this manager and my job was riding on getting Olympic/WC medals that I'd be damned sure my athletes had the fastest kit available. Think Team GB can't afford to buy wheels if it needs something faster?

Well, most riders aren't on their National teams for 4 years. Many/most spend time with their pro team and then get selected to their respective National teams for international events. It's those team managers I'm talking about.

Also, USA Cycling is known for penny-pinching when it comes to Track. Recall examples like when there was a World Cup in Mexico and it would cost $1,000 - $2,000 per rider to send people down to fight for points and get much-needed experience and either nobody went or self-funded people went.

On a related note. USA Cycling literally has a bike room filled with Io/Cometes. I've seen it, yet I've seen parents of athletes headed to Jr Worlds asking to borrow race wheels for Junior Worlds.

USA Cycling is weird, man, when it comes to money for track.
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Old 12-18-18, 01:07 PM
  #197  
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Does anyone have any experience of Mavic 3G wheels (trispoke, early 90s by the look of them) as track wheels? There seems to be a set going for a reasonable price and I imagine they were Mavic's flagship wheels at the time. Would they be good as a velodrome wheel? I only ride on indoor wood and it looks, on the face of it, as though it'd be a nice wheelset at about a third of the cost of the Zipp 808/disc combination that I've been considering but struggling to justify. These would do nicely as an intermediate step if they're reasonable performers.

Any thoughts?
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Old 12-18-18, 03:19 PM
  #198  
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The 3G was a very fast wheel. Stiffer than the HED, but heavier as it was old tech. Ive only ever seen them used by Enduros.
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Old 12-19-18, 09:04 AM
  #199  
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Thought i would put some notes here as it may be of use to someone - i found finding info on these wheel difficult.

DT Swiss RC 55 Track T wheel set.

These have been a really high quality set of wheels. As the name suggests they have a 55mm carbon rim construction. They use DT Swiss axle and bearings and spin very smoothly indeed. The axle body looks very similar to Dura Ace - not sure if there was some trading of info between the companies. The review here comments to the same effect ( https://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/wheels/dt-swiss-rc-55-track-t-wheelset?fbclid=IwAR0PboeNcOpEM_orRHb6R-lvcHXYet5Ouzrzf7c6qQpZTklXmr5Inpovb8Y ).

The hubs have nice tall flanges and are laced with DT spokes - the overall package is super stiff. I am not a light rider and when giving full beans in a match sprint or in a standing start, i get no feeling of flex at all. Given the depth they are probably more suited to enduro events, buts its comforting to know they can stand up to high torque abuse.

I mostly ride these indoors, but i have ridden them outside at Herne Hill in crosswinds and the rim profile deals with cross winds very well.

I think these wheels were specced as standard on the top BMC track machine frames. You dont see many about but i would highly recommend considering them if you see some available and are in the market for an aero wheelset.

Lastly, they look sexy on the bike. That pretty much trumps everything in the end doesnt it?
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Old 01-02-19, 09:33 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
To be clear:

I hold as Fact:
- That the Zipp 808 track front wheel is as fast and strong as any other on the market based on the data and tests that Iíve seen, including the Macic Io, HED Trispoke, and FFWD 5 Spoke. I also base this on my personal experience having owned pre-Firecrest and Firecrest 808s (front/rear) and older Mavic Io/Comete sets and used them extensively.
- That the Mavic Io is not head and shoulders above other options like it used to be when it was introduced, what, 15-20 years ago? Everyone else has simply caught up. It is bling, though
- The Io is certainly not worth $4,000 USD. Period.

I hold as Opinion:
- That the 808 track front wheel is the fastest available. Thatís the wheelset I bought last season.
So here's a bit of a perhaps unanswerable question...If all other elements are equal, who makes the fastest-rolling HUBS?

The follow-up to that is, has anyone tested track hubs fairly, eliminating variables and narrowing performance down to the hubs themselves?

I now have wheels with Mavic track hubs, Zipp track hubs, DA track hubs, FFWD track hubs and Onyx track hubs...curious to know which would actually roll the best----if all other elements were equal.

I bring this up, because in my experiences with road wheels, those with DA hubs seem to roll better/faster than anything else I've owned. Not standing up for DA as the best, but sharing empirical evidence (I generally seem to coast faster than most riders around me since switching to wheels with DA hubs. I didn't change anything else, so I'm thinking the hubs must be a factor.)
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