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First thoughts on Titanium

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First thoughts on Titanium

Old 10-09-19, 04:33 PM
  #51  
masi61
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
This old girl



is a much smoother ride than this



Harshest riding bike I ever owned was a Colnago Master Olympic.
That Concorde must really be smooth. Because that Moots has a lot of comfort going from it based on the appearance. I mean it even has a layback titanium post on it. I'm curious what kind of tires and tire pressures you are running? I mean that moots looks like it should be an absolute magic carpet ride on most every kind of road surface.

I know that steel bike are known for a resilient ride. Titanium is also resilient, I guess folks here are splitting hairs trying to quantify the ride quality.
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Old 10-09-19, 04:40 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
Thatís if you work on the premise that hand built is automatically better. Which from a performance perspective I donít see.

Regarding the drool factor like diamonds and Rolexís I concur.

Well my 11 year old Moots from a cost per annum POV is definitely better value than the 5 mass produced bikes most of my friends have gone through in the same timeframe.
Then again my steel Concorde is better value per annum again (by a longshot).
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Old 10-09-19, 04:44 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
That Concorde must really be smooth. Because that Moots has a lot of comfort going from it based on the appearance. I mean it even has a layback titanium post on it. I'm curious what kind of tires and tire pressures you are running? I mean that moots looks like it should be an absolute magic carpet ride on most every kind of road surface.

I know that steel bike are known for a resilient ride. Titanium is also resilient, I guess folks here are splitting hairs trying to quantify the ride quality.
Both bikes are running 23mm Vittoria Corsa tyres inflated to 80psi front and rear (I weigh 85kg).
The wheels on the moots are far less spokes and are wider rims. Because of the wider rims the tyres are more like a 25mm.
The Concorde wheels are 32 spoke front and rear on narrow Open Pro's.
To make a better comparison I should install 25's on the Concorde.

The Moots is smooth, but the Concorde is smootherer.
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Old 10-09-19, 07:19 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
All purely mechanical watches (including Rolex) are functionally obsolete; A $10 Casio quartz watch is more accurate than most of them, and only requires a $2 battery replacement once a decade.
There is A LOT more functional obsolescence in the bike world than in the luxury watch world.
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Old 10-09-19, 11:31 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
My over the top comment was a poke at those that still assign these mythical qualities to Titanium as a frame material. For the record, I find some beautiful and most likely one day I will purchase one. Carbon, Steel and Aluminium all produce great framesets and can be tuned to deliver the type of ride one looks for. Typical dig at carbon is that it fails spontaneously and is not reliable however 90%+ of people who ride titanium use carbon forks and other critical components. If someone built a sub 750 gram titanium bike I am sure its reliability and rideability would encounter a problem as well. This ongoing justification for paying a premium for titanium because it's superior to all other materials is a bit much for me.

I own a Rolex and like the watch just because. I would like a Titanium bike for the same reason (plus they don't show scratches as readily).
dude, they use carbon forks for the cost saving. A carbon fork can be had brand new for $55 on ebay, plenty of them. Meanwhile, the cheapest new ti fork on ebay is around $300.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:08 AM
  #56  
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It's not always about modern functionality to some. I have one of these in my kitchen. It dates to 1954.

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Old 10-10-19, 06:19 AM
  #57  
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that's a great looking bike!

Originally Posted by eshew View Post

I'd put titanium on par with a carbon fiber assuming they are both well made. But it's a little disingenuous for Ti bike manufacturers to say it's a lifetime purchase when sadly ti can crack just like anything else. Benefit of ti over other materials is really subjective. Depends on what you like & why.

That being said I LOVE my ti bike. I ride mtb's exclusively but my ti bike is unrivaled in terms of comfort. The s bend stays do an amazingly good job of absorbing chatter & bumps. Already had a crack repaired once, and I'll gladly have it repaired a 2nd time if that happens again.

BTW that Dean is awesome!
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Old 10-10-19, 11:45 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
My over the top comment was a poke at those that still assign these mythical qualities to Titanium as a frame material. For the record, I find some beautiful and most likely one day I will purchase one. Carbon, Steel and Aluminium all produce great framesets and can be tuned to deliver the type of ride one looks for. Typical dig at carbon is that it fails spontaneously and is not reliable however 90%+ of people who ride titanium use carbon forks and other critical components. If someone built a sub 750 gram titanium bike I am sure its reliability and rideability would encounter a problem as well. This ongoing justification for paying a premium for titanium because it's superior to all other materials is a bit much for me.

I own a Rolex and like the watch just because. I would like a Titanium bike for the same reason (plus they don't show scratches as readily).
there is the myth that carbon spontaneously fails randomly on many bikes which simply isnt true but my issue with carbon is pre catastrophic failure warning, which is a lot less definitive and easy to detect on carbon than metal bikes. Also there is no denying carbon just isnt as crash resilient as metal bikes. Hey if you are a carbon guy or race all the more power to you. Honestly Ti loyalists can come off as crazy but my only suggestion is to ride one. Either it totally changes your perspective or you will stand by carbon. Granted the biggest issue for me is still price for Ti. I'd takes a SWorks any day over a $7k+ Moots but at that price range every gram matters and having a SWorks is probably more luxurious and Rolex like than anything.

Also yes a lot of Ti bikes use carbon forks but like someone stated repkacing or repairing just a fork is more cost effective than if it was made out of Ti. Also most carbon forms break due to user area like slamming the headset or over tightening more than anything
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Old 10-10-19, 01:59 PM
  #59  
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I would say the frame design has as much to do with how it rides as does the material used. To me, comparing the ride of one ti bike to another is kind of pointless for this reason.
I mean, we can all wax poetic about our rides and how we love the qualities of them, but its kind of silly to compare different frame geometries made with different materials aint it?
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Old 10-10-19, 02:30 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by GnipGnop View Post
I would say the frame design has as much to do with how it rides as does the material used. To me, comparing the ride of one ti bike to another is kind of pointless for this reason.
I mean, we can all wax poetic about our rides and how we love the qualities of them, but its kind of silly to compare different frame geometries made with different materials aint it?
very true. There is an old saying with a bike you can only pick two: the bike being strong, bike being well priced, and the bike being light. There are steel bikes that are 15lbs but they are super super niche, cost a small fortune, plus like you said with the material used to make a steel bike 15lbs the ride characteristics has been greatly changed. Carbon for what it is worth is relatively strong, very light, and has loads of price points from $1,000 "entry level" to $10,000 prosumer bikes. Titanium due to production constraints will never be a mass assembled bike that Trek or whoever can sell, so Litespeed, Lynskey, Moots, Seven have to charge thousands of dollars. So for me carbon if the perfect material for making a bike lighter without skyrocketing the price.
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Old 10-10-19, 04:54 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Jrasero View Post
So for me carbon if the perfect material for making a bike lighter without skyrocketing the price.
But from purely anecdotal evidence of the people riding in my local groups seemingly needs to be replaced every few years for some reason.
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Old 10-10-19, 06:13 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
But from purely anecdotal evidence of the people riding in my local groups seemingly needs to be replaced every few years for some reason.
Maybe your friends' like riding new bikes with current technology, however, replacing bikes every couple of years seems like a very aggressive upgrade schedule. Tying riders' replacement schedules to frame materials is a bit of a stretch.

I find it odd that Ti riders need to denigrate other materials especially carbon to justify the purchase. Your Moots is a gorgeous bike enjoy.
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Old 10-10-19, 06:24 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
Maybe your friends' like riding new bikes with current technology, however, replacing bikes every couple of years seems like a very aggressive upgrade schedule. Tying riders' replacement schedules to frame materials is a bit of a stretch.

I find it odd that Ti riders need to denigrate other materials especially carbon to justify the purchase. Your Moots is a gorgeous bike enjoy.
No, my comment had nothing to do with the material at all.
I am equating it to the ongoing cost, which seems to be the main argument against Ti here.
If others are replacing their frames every say 3 years and I have not replaced my Ti bike for 12 years then their cost is likely significantly more than mine (even taking into account funds recouped from sale of their old bike).

Technology.........................maybe.
Marketing hype..............100%.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:01 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
Maybe your friends' like riding new bikes with current technology, however, replacing bikes every couple of years seems like a very aggressive upgrade schedule. Tying riders' replacement schedules to frame materials is a bit of a stretch.

I find it odd that Ti riders need to denigrate other materials especially carbon to justify the purchase. Your Moots is a gorgeous bike enjoy.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

I too find it odd that Ti owners feel the need to denigrate other frame materials, whether steel, aluminum or carbon. Maybe it is insecurity about their choices.

I own two steel frame bikes, two carbon frame bikes and an aluminum bike. I also owned a Litespeed Classic Ti bike.

Each frame material has its pros and cons, none is perfect. For example, I loved the fact that I could lean the Litespeed just about anywhere and not worry about scratches like I worry with my C59 and C60.

But I love the ride quality of my two CF bikes. For this short, pudgy asthmatic rider the Litespeed felt noodly. The C59 and C60 fly up hills...or at least make me feel like I am flying.

My two steel framed bikes just singĒ to me when I ride them, especially going up and down PCH.

As for aesthetics, and notwithstanding @indyfabz pretty Ti bike, my Litespeed just looked utilitarian (there is an understated beauty to that look, like a pretty woman not wearing make-up).

My Bottecchia and Master are sexy as heck, their paints jobs are just gorgeous. And other riders approach me all the time to admire the C60ís shimmering color scheme.

I guess the point is that we can all enjoy our choices of build material without the need to denigrate or put down other ridersí choice.

Now wait until I get my Calfee bamboo bike.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:13 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
You took the words right out of my mouth.

I too find it odd that Ti owners feel the need to denigrate other frame materials, whether steel, aluminum or carbon.
:
Again, not what was said.
Seems people want to use anything said to justify their own position and to make out that posters are "denigrating" others.
You need to re-read the comment I made and the response to velopig that clarified.

3 steel and 1 Ti bike here.
Have had high end alloy and CF too.
Happy with my choices.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
I too find it odd that Ti owners feel the need to denigrate other frame materials, whether steel, aluminum or carbon.
As an owner of a titanium bike, I quite like well-built aluminum and steel bikes too (and have owned all three; still have an aluminum one). I just like metal frames in general.
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Old 10-10-19, 07:43 PM
  #67  
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Are carbon users touchy..?
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Old 10-10-19, 09:11 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
You took the words right out of my mouth.

I too find it odd that Ti owners feel the need to denigrate other frame materials, whether steel, aluminum or carbon. Maybe it is insecurity about their choices.

I own two steel frame bikes, two carbon frame bikes and an aluminum bike. I also owned a Litespeed Classic Ti bike.

Each frame material has its pros and cons, none is perfect. For example, I loved the fact that I could lean the Litespeed just about anywhere and not worry about scratches like I worry with my C59 and C60.

But I love the ride quality of my two CF bikes. For this short, pudgy asthmatic rider the Litespeed felt noodly. The C59 and C60 fly up hills...or at least make me feel like I am flying.

My two steel framed bikes just singĒ to me when I ride them, especially going up and down PCH.

As for aesthetics, and notwithstanding @indyfabz pretty Ti bike, my Litespeed just looked utilitarian (there is an understated beauty to that look, like a pretty woman not wearing make-up).

My Bottecchia and Master are sexy as heck, their paints jobs are just gorgeous. And other riders approach me all the time to admire the C60ís shimmering color scheme.

I guess the point is that we can all enjoy our choices of build material without the need to denigrate or put down other ridersí choice.

Now wait until I get my Calfee bamboo bike.
ugh you got it wrong dude. Many Ti owners are the old man type, with disposable income and house closed to being paid off if not already. They have lived thru most of life has to offer, and are now financially secured. In other words, they have NOTHING to prove.
It's the "nouveau" carbonboys who think they know-it-all, who think they're high tech living on the bleeding edge, that tend to put down others
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Old 10-10-19, 09:12 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
Again, not what was said.
Seems people want to use anything said to justify their own position and to make out that posters are "denigrating" others.
You need to re-read the comment I made and the response to velopig that clarified.

3 steel and 1 Ti bike here.
Have had high end alloy and CF too.
Happy with my choices.
Relax, I was not referencing your comment/post. In fact, I didnít even read your post (what did you write?).

I was agreeing with @velopigís general observations. He was, I believe, commenting on the general tenor of the comments made by many of the Ti tifosi.

I am happy that you can appreciate and enjoy all sorts of different build materials.

Like I wrote, I am looking forward to getting a bamboo frame bike.
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Old 10-10-19, 09:18 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
ugh you got it wrong dude. Many Ti owners are the old man type, with disposable income and house closed to being paid off if not already. They have lived thru most of life has to offer, and are now financially secured. In other words, they have NOTHING to prove.
It's the "nouveau" carbonboys who think they know-it-all, who think they're high tech living on the bleeding edge, that tend to put down others
You are barking up the wrong tree bro.

This so-called nouveau carbonboy, as you choose to call me, is plenty old, owns his own house, plus rental property, has put four kids through private schools and college and generally has enough disposable income to indulge my cycling vices.

Obviously I hit a raw nerve or you wouldnít be turning my innocuous and inclusive post into something it was not. Read what I wrote, the entire post.

Chill, all that anger canít be doing you any good.

Peace out bro.
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Old 10-10-19, 09:20 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Are carbon users touchy..?
No, we are touchy-feely...we are stardust, we are gold, we are billion-year old carbon.
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Old 10-10-19, 09:25 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
You are barking up the wrong tree bro.

This so-called nouveau carbonboy, as you choose to call me, is plenty old, owns his own house, plus rental property, has put four kids through private schools and college and generally has enough disposable income to indulge my cycling vices.

Obviously I hit a raw nerve or you wouldnít be turning my innocuous and inclusive post into something it was not. Read what I wrote, the entire post.

Chill, all that anger canít be doing you any good.

Peace out bro.
I find it odd that for a guy like you, would sound so unwise
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Old 10-10-19, 10:26 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
I find it odd that for a guy like you, would sound so unwise
You are funny. How is that TDS coming along

Ti Derangement Syndrome.

Remember one thing, to be sarcastic you must be funny first. Leave it to the pros.

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Old 10-11-19, 08:14 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
You are funny. How is that TDS coming along

Ti Derangement Syndrome.

Remember one thing, to be sarcastic you must be funny first. Leave it to the pros.

https://youtu.be/oJ85nfcDOBY
You're like that guy sitting in the white house, who thinks he's being funny and laughing at his own jokes.
What you call being funny sarcastic, I call it being a class clown. Yes, lots of class clowns have made successful careers out of being stupid funny in public.

In case you haven't noticed, in almost all of these ti discussion, it usually starts with some guy saying "why I love ti". Then some carbon shmuck would come in to chime about how carbon is a better material. Do you ever find a discussion where a guy post about how awesome his carbon-fiber bike is, and then a ti guy comes in to chime about how ti is a better material? Nope.
But here you are, saying that "ti owners need to denigrate others"..
So.. so you just make up false statement so you can have a dig at others? You not seeing this?

Last edited by aclinjury; 10-11-19 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 10-11-19, 09:01 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by velopig View Post
I find it odd that Ti riders need to denigrate other materials especially carbon to justify the purchase.
I don't need to denigrate other materials to justify my ti purchase, and I don't do so. I have non-standard body geometry, so custom works better for me. I wanted a new custom frame designed by someone who is well-versed in fitting people. (My previous custom IF steel frame was fit by someone who was not so good at that.) I am also somewhat neglectful with bikes, so I wanted something that will not rust. Just so happens that someone local fit the bill. And as for price, it really wasn't that expensive. IIRC, frame was $3,500 + a couple hundred for the coloring. It was a present to myself for paying off my mortgage in only 11 years.

I have never ridden a carbon bike, so I am not qualified to comment on the material. I'd like try one though. I am curious to see how one feels. But I am not a bike collector/amasser. I have one road bike and one steel touring bike for self-contained touring and commuting/around town transportation. As such. I am not going to add one to my lineup when I don't need another bike.
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