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Any boxing fans out there?

Old 11-03-20, 08:35 PM
  #601  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yeah, Loma looked under-prepared. He looked like the pandemic layoff had hindered his usual prep and vibe. Frankly he looked soft, very little muscle definition. Not fat, but not cut. Mostly he looked like he didn't have a plan.

Not to take anything away from Teofimo Lopez, who fought the fight of his career and found the recipe for beating... well... for beating an under-prepared Lomachenko.

It's hard to say whether Lopez would have beaten a peak Lomachenko. Loma mostly just covered up for the first six rounds, but he wasn't getting tagged solidly all that often either.

And when Loma did wake up and do some fighting for two or three rounds around round 8, he was much more effective than Lopez... but couldn't seem to sustain it. And Lopez closed the show well in the final round.

Still, at the end of the bout, it was Lopez with the marked up face while Loma looked like he'd finished sparring.

Kinda reminded me of Pacquiao vs Clottey. Yeah, Pacman easily outpointed Clottey but rarely penetrated that high-hands defense and mostly scored with body shots. But at the end of the fight it was Pacquiao with the busted up face while Clottey seemed blase about the whole affair. Although, to be fair to Pacquiao, if Clottey had opened up and taken more chances, he'd have gotten caught too.

I'd like to see a rematch. If Loma can psych himself up back to peak form I can see him out hustling Lopez for the decision. But he'd need to be perfect.
I would take the bet on Lopez for any possible rematch. Too big for Loma unless he seriously takes the time to roid up and grow into the division. He's still got a featherweight's rib cage in any case. Loma might mark him up but he doesn't seem to hurt him enough to stall Lopez's advance for long. Lopez on the other hand has heavy hands and that's why, I believe, Loma don't want to stop moving long enough to win rounds by punching enough to win rounds.

I think Lopez wins bigger in any rematch.
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Old 11-03-20, 08:53 PM
  #602  
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
...I think Lopez wins bigger in any rematch.
That wouldn't surprise me either. Lomachenko was making excuses after the fight, sounding kinda whiny. That's never a good sign. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes the way of Kovalev after losing to Andre Ward, slacking off, making excuses, not facing realities of aging.

OTOH, Greg LeMond tended to be petulant during interviews during his career and it didn't indicate he was washed up. Although it depended on the attitude of the interviewer. He could be polite, frank about his weaknesses and self-effacing with some journalists, and rather rude and abrupt with others. But things happen off camera and behind the scenes with journalists that piss off folks. I saw it many times as a newspaper reporter observing some clueless radio and TV "reporters" who were more interested in sound bites than facts.

So maybe Loma's post-fight snippy remarks had more to do with a lack of rapport with the interviewer.

Anyway, Teofimo Lopez revealed he needs surgery for micro fractures in a foot injured during the bout. That's a bad sign in a guy who's only 23. If he loses any mobility due to bad feet, it's gonna make a rematch tougher if Loma decides to utilize his outstanding lateral movement and lightning pivots -- which he didn't do at all during the first half of their recent bout.

I'm still giving Loma the benefit of the doubt based on Pacquiao's up and down career after his mid-30s. The main reason he got kayoed by Marquez in their final rematch in 2012 was because Pacman got complacent. As soon as he thought he had Marquez in serious trouble he forgot all the stuff Freddie Roach had taught him -- especially that tricky footwork -- and reverted to a predictable pump fake jab, jab and left cross, coming straight ahead, no footwork. Marquez read him like a book because he'd seen it all before. It was the Pacman from their first match -- quick but no variation. But Pacquiao recovered and was still capable of that quick, tricky footwork and mixing up his attack in later bouts.

I just depends on Loma's mindset going into a rematch. I'd still give him a good shot at a decision win over Lopez.
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Old 11-04-20, 04:01 AM
  #603  
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You know Greg LeMond always managed to make a public spectacle out of the inner team rivalries that are commonplace in cycling more so perhaps than any other sport. But the difference with him was that he always had to go to the nearest live mic with it as if seeking some kind of validation from the fans for whatever injustices he suffered having to compete with the French star in the stateside Coors Classic of all the impudence.. Sometimes i think Hinault annoyed LeMond just to entertain himself the way you do when you find out someone is thin skinned.


How to win rounds on the move by Willie Pastrano
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You know Loma being as dangerous as he was at 126 and 130 did as you accurately stated: leave himself without a plan to win at 135. Willie Pastrano might not have been one of the ring greats but he knew how to win rounds on the move when he couldn't hope to stymie an opponent by hurting them any.

I loved the way he countered over Harold Johnson's missed jabs by moving straight back just like Ali did then slipping in to land his own and then evading Johnson's attempt to counter-jab that in reaching short of landing yet another missed jab at Willie only to have Willie slip in to land another counter jab and repeat the whole damned thing yet again . . . the total of which happened in about a second and a half ! And do this routine at least .twice in every damned round !.And this is the guy handicapped in reach winning the jabbing contest ! It's why I loved watching Willie . . . it was akin to watching Fran Tarkington drag an opposing defense all over the damned football field after him . . . It made me smile. Hell it made me laugh.

Harold was arguably a lightheavyweight top 10 GOAT having traded wins and losses with the likes of Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles and he owns wins over a variable who's who of the top two weight divisions during his long career . . . But styles make fights and Willie Pastrano's style was made to upset Harold Johnson if only barely.




.
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Old 11-04-20, 09:14 AM
  #604  
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Davey Moore
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Old 11-05-20, 06:22 AM
  #605  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
Bob Dylan should keep his music out of boxing. I lost a lot of respect for Dylan after his fawning adulation for the reprehensible Rubin Carter. Yeah, Hurricane was an exciting if limited fighter. But a terrible human being and his bad behavior toward the people who helped free him only underscored the likelihood that he was indeed guilty of the murders he was imprisoned for. I quit listening to a local FM rock radio station because they played that damned song almost every day. And that Denzel Washington movie only repeated the myths about a heroic, persecuted Carter.

Hey, I read the book when I was in high school and fell for Carter's self-mythologizing too. But after years of reviewing independent checks of his assertions, including the faked photo that showed him decorated with military medals and ribbons he never earned, the whole scam fell apart.

Mostly Dylan just strings words together and mumbles. I haven't been able to listen to any of his stuff in decades.

'scuse my rant. Sore topic with me.

While Davey Moore's ending was tragic, that's always been the hazard in boxing. I try to remember that occasionally there are good guys and good outcomes. Here's one that's seldom mentioned.

In 2005 the slick and often hilarious showboating boxer/entertainer Emmanuel Augustus faced an aging Ray Oliveira, who was coming off a stoppage loss to Ricky Hatton. Oliveira had been a tough opponent in his prime but by the time he faced Augustus Ray was just a shadow of himself, looking like he was sparring while Augustus clowned en route to an easy decision win.

In the 8th round something happened to Oliveira -- he winced, grabbed the back of his head and neck and walked away. Augustus just shrugged and went to a neutral corner while ref Steve Smoger checked on Ray, who claimed he was okay to continue and didn't need the doctor. Smoger waved the fighters back together but Augustus didn't like the way Ray looked. Oliveira was wincing and moaning in pain. Emmanuel looked at the referee, hoping he'd step in, but the fight continued. Augustus refused to hit Ray in the head, mostly feinting and going for body shots. Oliveira was obviously in distress but wouldn't quit. Augustus backed against the ropes and covered up, still waiting for the ref to stop the fight, while Ray tossed some feeble punches. Finally Smoger stopped it.

Emmanuel Augustus could easily have done permanent damage to Ray Oliveira, but didn't. He was so skilled -- and at that point Ray was so damaged and incapable -- that Augustus didn't need to do anything but throw a few body shots through the 10th round, if the fight wasn't stopped.

Emmanuel Augustus (last name Burton earlier in his career -- he was a favorite on ESPN) was one of those greatest boxers who never became a champion kinda guys. (Well... he did snag a minor IBA light welter title briefly, and a couple other titles). Floyd Mayweather Jr. called Augustus his toughest opponent -- I think Floyd was being generous because he liked him. Obviously Floyd faced tougher opponents in later bouts. But I think everyone who watched enough of Augustus' bouts realized he had way more potential than he demonstrated, mostly because he was an eclectic eccentric guy who did things his way, even if it meant never quite reaching the top.

Much as I enjoyed Emmanuel Augustus as a boxer, it was his behavior toward Ray Oliveira in that 8th round that made Augustus a true champion in my book.

Augustus had some tough times after his boxing career ended, including being shot in the head in 2014 and surviving. It's never been publicly clarified what injury Oliveira sustained -- some speculated it was just a neck injury, others said a stroke, but I'm not sure Ray ever gave any statement. I think he trains boxers now. I wish them both well.

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Old 11-07-20, 06:59 AM
  #606  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
And that would have been the '60s Featherweight Davey Moore and not the Jr Middleweight Davey Moore of the '80s

I remember some ring deaths. When Benny Paret died they took boxing off the air for two years. One thing that would happen if boxing were outlawed today is that guys wanting to make a living at it would go to places like Aruba where restrictions are few and medical oversight isn't.


Been watching Emile Griffith just about as early as I can remember including this this third Paret fight and didn't really know anything about him until seeing this pretty well done documentary.

Watched Oswalt get killed on live TV too. Watching it on TV and in person seems about the same to me. Can't quite watch a fight through that somebody was killed in. Hell I don't even like watching tree arboring fails that someone gets hurt in. But the home smasher ones are still fun.

That documentary is a good one.
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Old 11-07-20, 07:41 AM
  #607  
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I think what is tough is having an opponent swish their butt back and forth in ridiculing your best punches having landed.
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Old 11-07-20, 11:37 PM
  #608  
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Yup, while fans loved Emmanuel (Burton) Augustus' knack for dancing and clowning, it probably cost him some rounds and entire decisions. Check out the referee's expressions during and after his 1998 bout against Jon Thaxton was stopped.

Augustus was really an old school fighter with superb defensive skills and offensive trickery, hyped up with showboating from Muhammad Ali, Jorge Paez and a few other notorious ring clowns.

BTW, Thaxton was probably one of Augustus' tougher fights. Thaxton's southpaw stance and ability to spin Augustus left him befuddled at times.

But as with his later fights, Thaxton lacked the conditioning to sustain mobility to make up for only average punching power. Augustus fared better when he pressured Thaxton, forcing Thaxton to expend a lot of energy on bobbing and weaving. Same tactic Ricky Hatton used a few years later to wear down Thaxton, although even Hatton was unable to stop him.

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Old 11-14-20, 11:18 PM
  #609  
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Looks like Bud Crawford just cemented his position as one of the game's greatest technicians since Salvador Sanchez, stopping Kell Brook in the 4th round with a right hook so quick and short I had to watch the highlight video several times to see it.

I haven't seen the entire video yet but apparently Brook took the first two rounds while Crawford sussed him out. That's Crawford's real strength -- the ability to read any opponent and adapt. I wouldn't rank him alongside Floyd Mayweather Jr in terms of sheer talent, but Bud can definitely read and adapt as well as Mayweather.

Brook looked much bigger than Crawford and supposedly had previous difficulty getting back down to welterweight. And Bud is small for a welterweight already, but more than makes up for it with ability and punching power.

In the short highlight you can see Brook making the biggest mistake anyone can make against a talented southpaw -- standing still right in front of Crawford, pitty-patting his own left jab against Bud's right jab. Crawford read Brook's timing like a cliched book and puh-POW, short, crisp right hook over the top of Brook's feeler jab.

Too bad Pacquiao is past his prime. A loss to Crawford now wouldn't prove anything, same as Pacman's win over a badly depleted De La Hoya. But prime to prime, I'd still give an edge to Crawford over Pacquiao, mostly because Bud is so adaptable, while Pacman has always tended to be a bit predictable when he's not 100% focused, which got him kayoed against Marquez. But even now I'd bet Pacquiao and Crawford would make a heckuva a good matchup.
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Old 11-20-20, 01:47 AM
  #610  
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I've been sleeping on Crawford lately and missed that completely. I will check it out.


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Old 11-23-20, 01:33 PM
  #611  
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I came across that post fight interview with Crawford and Bob Arum and Arum was all praises in that one, calling Crawford one of the GOAT welterweights and comparing him to Leonard and Hearns already. Unless I'm missing something more recent it sounds like positive hype coming out of "Top Rank" to me. Still trying to make a fight with Errol Spence in Dubai. Covid related concerns cancelled the first attempt.
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Old 11-23-20, 09:54 PM
  #612  
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Yeah, did you notice how Crawford reacted when the interviewer asked him about future bouts? He nudged Arum and let him do the talking. Arum should be grateful to have a fighter as savvy, mature, composed and effective as Bud. If Arum is losing money it's his problem for not promoting Crawford effectively. Hire a PR coach if they want to hype Bud's low-key personality.
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Old 11-27-20, 12:18 AM
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Excellent analysis of Terence Crawford's strengths, and his only real weakness (his tendency to leave his head high and exposed while countering to the body).

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Old 11-27-20, 07:13 PM
  #614  
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If this Tyson Roy Jones fight is gonna be $20 I might just check it out.
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Old 11-27-20, 07:33 PM
  #615  
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The Tyson/Jones fight looks like silly money making scam. I hope the fighters get a good payday, but this smells like BS.
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Old 11-28-20, 08:12 AM
  #616  
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Originally Posted by Astrozombie View Post
If this Tyson Roy Jones fight is gonna be $20 I might just check it out.
$50 on PPV to watch two 50+ y.o. over-the-hill fighters survive through eight 2-minute rounds, plus a comical undercard of internet influencer Logan Paul and an ex-NBA player. If the pubs were open I might go watch it and spend my $$$ on a few beers and plate of nachos, but I'm not paying $50 on PPV.

Edit: And its just an 'exhibition' match, so no judges keeping scorecards and no winner/loser (unless someone gets knocked out). Its more like you're paying to watch them sparring than a real boxing match.

Last edited by skidder; 11-28-20 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 11-29-20, 01:06 AM
  #617  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
$50 on PPV to watch two 50+ y.o. over-the-hill fighters survive through eight 2-minute rounds, plus a comical undercard of internet influencer Logan Paul and an ex-NBA player. If the pubs were open I might go watch it and spend my $$$ on a few beers and plate of nachos, but I'm not paying $50 on PPV...
Coincidentally, that's how I watched Mike Tyson's last bout, that embarrassing display against Kevin McBride, at some sports bar over beer and snacks. I don't remember much about the fight, other than that it was embarrassing. I do remember the guy sitting next to us stiffed the waitress so my friend and I covered the tab since it would have come out of the waitress's pocket.

Hey, Mike Tyson... you still owe us $20.
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Old 01-11-21, 02:20 AM
  #618  
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..

This '70s heavyweight trilogy was a bit under-sung and overlooked, imo. The San Diegan ex marine first caught Ali in one of his underestimating, undertrained distraction cycles of his career and broke his jaw at some point in the first fight while winning a decision at a second tier venue out on "Sports Arena Blvd" in the "Midway District between Ocean Beach and Mission Beach" in San Diego.
.
Ken Norton's crablike pressure style was made to give Ali three of the hardest fights and two of the closest contested nights in Ali's career. You could've called this first rematch either way as the judging did. Both my co-renter and I were undecided enough to call it a draw . . . or "at least a draw" as my then Phoenix housemate put it.
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Old 01-12-21, 12:09 AM
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Yeah, whenever anyone wants to discuss or challenge the notion that "styles make fights," I point to the classic 1970s era of Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and George Foreman. I've never found a better example to underscore the concept.

How could Ali handle Foreman with relative ease, while struggling against Norton and Frazier, who Foreman destroyed almost casually?

Of course, anyone who studied a young Ali and Sonny Liston in his prime against various opponents could have seen that coming. Foreman was mostly a supercharged Liston -- bigger, stronger, better technique, but very comparable.

And watching Liston demolish most other opponents of any size and style reveals why Foreman was so successful against anyone other than skilled boxers who were roughly his size and height.

Foreman's strength was punching from chest level, not quite straight punches, not quite uppercuts, with piston-like power. That was devastating against shorter opponents like Frazier, Bert Cooper, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, and taller fighters who fought short by crouching, as Norton did. If Ali had made the mistake of crouching he probably would have been caught the same way. But Ali fought tall 99% of the time.

That's something an older Big George often mentioned later in his career as an HBO commentator. The HBO crew tended to be dismissive of Foreman's blustering, John Madden-like commentary, sometimes rudely. Not that Jim Lampley was particularly astute about boxing, just a lantern jawed talking head, a Tank McNamara in real life. And Larry Merchant never met a man he couldn't insult. There was never a bigger blowhard in boxing than Larry Merchant. His monologues sounded like his gaseous columns for The Ring magazine, meant to be read but never heard aloud. I take that back, they weren't even good in print.

Anyway, even as an adult and experienced boxing observer, I learned a few things listening to Big George's boxing commentary. Foreman was an astute observer, a good student, humble enough to learn from his own mistakes. He'd rail against tall fighters who failed to use their height and reach effectively (looking at you, Antonio Margarito), and Oscar De La Hoya for abandoning what Foreman called DLH's "crow-hop" predatory footwork in favor of badly mimicking the Philly shell and shoulder roll. In his prime, De La Hoya's footwork was like a raptor or predatory ground bird, jumping in and out, picking apart an opponent. But he always struggled with stamina and struggled to maintain that footwork in longer bouts.

If both Foreman and Ali had been in comparably good health in their 40s and fought again, I'd give Foreman the edge. Foreman's style aged well, while Ali's did not. Looking back at Ali's second career bouts, even at his best he was only a ghost of his 1960s peak form. It's a shame how quickly he aged in that three-year layoff. He still did remarkably well by being a much shrewder boxer after his comeback. But he never seemed to be able to solve the riddles of Frazier and Norton. Even his wins against them (and I do think Ali's wins against Norton were legit, if squeaky close) were struggles.
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Old 01-12-21, 12:41 AM
  #620  
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BTW, check out Saul Alvarez vs Callum Smith. DAZN put up a long highlight reel immediately after the bout and it's fairly representative of the full fight.

TBH, Canelo wasn't all that impressive. He mostly threw one punch at a time. He appeared to be at 80% of his usual quickness and overall effort. It looked more like a spirited sparring match.

Smith was clearly at a disadvantage due to inexperience and a poor fight plan. But he has the tools to get much better. If he learns and adapts -- as Canelo did from Mayweather -- Smith has real potential. He made the mistakes of fighting short when he could and should have fought tall; didn't move effectively; didn't work that long jab enough to keep Canelo off balance. Smith has a good chin, good heart, never looked ready to quit or just survive. He connected with some good shots. Nothing to be ashamed of in that loss.

I'm surprised to hear Alvarez plans to stay at super middle. I don't see any advantage. Just a few years ago there was a notion that he was too small to be a full middleweight. That was wrong. But he looked a bit chunky at super middle, not chiseled, not as quick, not as busy. And super middle has generally been among the least respected divisions, with the exception of Andre Ward, who faced most of the best of the era. Even Joe Calzaghe didn't face Carl Froch or Arthur Abraham. I don't see Canelo beating a prime Andre Ward or Calzaghe, not with his showing against Callum Smith.
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Old 01-12-21, 11:39 AM
  #621  
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I’m thinking about taking some boxing lessons and becoming the light heavy weight champion of The Garage after I defeat a sheet of dry wall.
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Old 01-26-21, 04:49 PM
  #622  
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
Iím thinking about taking some boxing lessons and becoming the light heavy weight champion of The Garage after I defeat a sheet of dry wall.
Lesson 1
Keep your hands up and your butt off the floor.

" I'm the greatest shadow boxer of all time !". . . Boxing commentator Al Bernstein
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Old 02-08-21, 06:07 PM
  #623  
Zinger
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RIP Leon Spinks
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Old 03-14-21, 04:53 AM
  #624  
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rip marvelous marvin hagler. had to watch that 3 round, 1985 masterpiece of hagler/hearns for old times sake. still awesome.
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Old 03-14-21, 06:04 AM
  #625  
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RIP Marvin.
my son is only 17 and he watches and rewatches your fights.
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