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How common is 300w for an hour?

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How common is 300w for an hour?

Old 02-25-21, 12:24 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
My indoor and outdoor numbers vary by almost nothing. In many cases I can definitely drop more power indoors than out.
Mine have always varied by as high as 20w difference (higher outdoors of course). Indoors and at steady state is just the opposite of what my body ever wants to do.

Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
To tmonks point, it's about setting zones for workouts. Test. Set your zones. Adjust accordingly as you succeed or fail at your workouts. It's winter, but unless you're calculating TSS for the hand wringing you're ******g up your CTL and recovery.
OMG yes, this. This is the part that seems to completely allude a ton of people. I always find when I delve down into their thinking by asking "why" until they get mad that I find out that it's because power to them is a measuring stick and they use an FTP metric as a score for their life. I have always argued that outside of a few applications power solely exists as a tool for personal training. It becomes troublesome when it's used as a genital measuring device.
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Old 02-25-21, 01:47 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
It becomes troublesome when it's used as a genital measuring device.
I thought it was called an "e-wang".
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Old 02-25-21, 04:09 PM
  #178  
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Last 2-3 years I've fudged my FTP based on what I can do mainly in z3 and z4. 45 minutes is the longest I've had to hold a break neck pace; going an hour all out is hard. Unless its a TT, going all out for an hour probably means you're going to lose (or your competition sucks). I also know my zone settings are different compared to others; my lower zones (z1-z4) are better and my higher zones (z5-z7) are terrible; I both don't have much power over FTP and can't hold it as long. The Zone thing is not linear like it shows in the software like WKO, etc. My Zone 6 is probably 20% worse than other racers but I can hold threshold longer. A solid TT'er profile (I'd rather not have).

I've tried about 4 times outdoors to do a legit hour TT, each time something has went wrong. Sometimes its as simple as a car cutting you off, having to hit the brakes, and that lapse just kills it. On top of that, its just really hard mentally to go all out that long when nothing is on the line. Occasionally I'll do an all out 20 minute test because I want to break 300w (I've gotten close) and I'm really curious to see how I'll do after doing a year solid of base and tempo work only.
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Old 02-25-21, 04:15 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
My 25mi TT I did on my own I recorded 252 AP (3.5w/kg). Good for 25.5mph. I've done a 10mi at 285w in TT aero (right at 4.0w/kg) for 22ish min.

Indoors I've done 305 up Epic KOM in Zwift at 4.3w/kg for 22min. Hour indoors I've done right at 265 on road bike at 3.6w/kg.

I'm nothing to write home about. Even as a 4/5. But the road race where I crashed, I was in a 3 person sprint for the win and we had 100 yards on the field with 200m to go. I'm not that bright of a racer either. So, if I can be in that position, you probably could also.

IMO, I just think in general if folks aren't a Cat 3 or faster or about to be a Cat 3 due to their points and power..........you don't have the aerobic engine or need for it to make nearly 300w for a whole hour.

I would love to since I do TT and regional TT's is a 25mi event. That's between 50 and 65min for most folks. So, I've tried to focus on that more (and my 1min thru 3min power has stagnated due to neglect).
It sounds like you and I are/were pretty evenly matched for 60 mins. That year that I was most fit, on a Zwift big climb, I once did 292 watts for 60 mins, at 3.8 w/kg. But it was around then that I realized that I wasn't a great power producer for any meaningful duration, but that I had an engine that could run at Z4 (Threshold) for a very long period of time, even more than my race hardened mentors could, and that I had the mental fortitude for long distance. Not everyone enjoys suffering on a saddle for 10-24 hrs. I then decided that long distance stuff was for me, and veered away from the Z5+ training. Then came the double and triple+ Imperial centuries, 24 hr solo rides, and randoneurring. But getting (and beating, so far) a serious case of Stage 3 Lung Cancer 14 months ago (tumors so large my left upper lobe collapsed for 9 days, and several large clots in both lungs), took a lot out of my engine, and I just don't have the same throughput anymore. Thankfully Zone fitness is relative, so I can still ride Z4 for as long as I like, though at a much reduced pace to where I've been. C'est la vie.

Though never a racer, I still have a racer's chase-the-rabbit and close-the-gap mentality, so I continue to lurk in this forum just to feel that spark again from others.

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Old 02-25-21, 04:41 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
To tmonks point, it's about setting zones for workouts. Test. Set your zones. Adjust accordingly as you succeed or fail at your workouts. It's winter, but unless you're calculating TSS for the hand wringing you're ******g up your CTL and recovery.
Yep.
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Old 02-25-21, 05:35 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post

I've tried about 4 times outdoors to do a legit hour TT, each time something has went wrong. .
I got my first power meter in 2005 and I have never in my life done a steady state max one hour effort. My best 1 hour power was dong a few longer threshold efforts with z3 recovery with the odd intersection and hold up or two. The one time I did a 40k TT I hadn't ridden my TT bike but like two times and was a good 40-50 watts below what I think I could have done on a road bike.

I'm hoping to get a shot at a proper hour long effort on a 60ish minute climb in the mountains next month. I'm really looking forward (er...well, besides the suffering) to seeing what I could actually do for an hour a bloc.
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Old 02-25-21, 07:11 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
No, it doesn't. Age and fitness really have nothing to do with it.

The whole 20 minute test was NEVER about 20 minutes anyway; it was about a 5 minute blow out effort and THEN 20 minutes max and THEN using the .95 multiplier which provided an estimate that may or may not be particularly relevant to any particular person.

The 20 minute test needs to go far, far away. It really has little to do with anything other than what you can do for 20 minutes.
I agree hour power is not the same as 20 min, but found it not super far off for thse that were fit and actually went an hour - such as up. We can find data on riders with PMs.
The poster known as Fuggly did 373W in a 21 min Kings Via Huddart V.2 | Strava Ride Segment in Woodside, CA and 367W (pos 31) for an hour in segment Palomar Mt South Grade (Taco shop to Summit Stop Sign) | Strava Ride Segment in Pauma Valley, California. I expect he had the same PM and bike as these were near the same date. To me, that is not far off. I expect he was going as hard as he budgeted at the time.

My kid typically does not use a PM when he want's to go real hard. Junior in pos 5 the segment above with the three guys ahead of him with PMs all held 400W+ for shy of an hour. Cookie guy is the same reported weight. Junior has a calculated FTP of 260W. So I don't really give all that much credit to calculations.
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Old 02-25-21, 07:47 PM
  #183  
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Opinion:

"While a top amateur rider might be able to hold 400W for the same length of time, they wouldn’t be doing so in the first 11km of a 250km race. If they did, they wouldn’t make it to the end, as they’d be past their limit."
"Troia averaged 302W (4.19 W/kg) for the first hour of racing"


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Old 02-26-21, 06:57 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I'm hoping to get a shot at a proper hour long effort on a 60ish minute climb in the mountains next month. I'm really looking forward (er...well, besides the suffering) to seeing what I could actually do for an hour a bloc.
I've done a 90-min climb. I don't recall what my power was on that day. Regardless, I've never found climbing to be a great test for power though, largely because I rarely have the proper gearing so I'm grinding along at 50-60 rpm. Also, I do not like climbing. I'm quite bad at it.
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Old 02-26-21, 07:29 AM
  #185  
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I can push harder on flats than I can for the same length of time on a climb. Something about how speed is a positive feedback loop for me. I see myself going fast and feel like the hurt is doing something and that motivates me to go faster. On a long climb, I go slowly, feel like I'm not going anywhere and don't get that same push to keep putting out more power.
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Old 02-26-21, 07:36 AM
  #186  
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I don't know what all the apprehension is about going all out for an hour. (not talking about you guys), but I always hear people saying "not very many people can hold their FTP for an hour". It's like they are afraid of reality....then quote Coggins about how FTP can be anywhere between 35 min to 90 min. Naturally they justify their 20 min power and make themselves feel better by thinking they are in the 35 min category. None of them have been tested in lab conditions....then the discussions shift into how you can make accurate FTP assessments by looking at certain points in your power curve.

Re: People who's indoor power is higher than outdoor power.....I think being on a stationary trainer has a lot to do with this. Specifically the artificial leverage you get when hammering.
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Old 02-26-21, 07:44 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
I don't know what all the apprehension is about going all out for an hour.
I'll answer, it's what it takes from your training plan to prepare and what it does to you when you do it.

If you're wanting a good performance, you'll need to both do preparatory workouts in the weeks leading up to an hour effort, take time off to accumulate some form, do the effort, then take a day/days to recover from said effort.

For more time crunched folks that's a big time expenditure. I'd argue the person is better off doing whatever they can to build fitness constantly, instead of preparing for constant tests and doing tests. Just adjust workouts as needed based on looking at said workout results (or mid workout).

Just IMO. If you've got 20 hrs a week, by all means go for it.

But if I'm going for an hour it better be worth it.
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Old 02-26-21, 08:00 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
I don't know what all the apprehension is about going all out for an hour. (not talking about you guys), but I always hear people saying "not very many people can hold their FTP for an hour". It's like they are afraid of reality....then quote Coggins about how FTP can be anywhere between 35 min to 90 min. Naturally they justify their 20 min power and make themselves feel better by thinking they are in the 35 min category. None of them have been tested in lab conditions....then the discussions shift into how you can make accurate FTP assessments by looking at certain points in your power curve.

Re: People who's indoor power is higher than outdoor power.....I think being on a stationary trainer has a lot to do with this. Specifically the artificial leverage you get when hammering.

re: leverage - I don't find that to be the case. It's the ability to hold steady without concern for cars, lights, turns, downhills etc.
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Old 02-26-21, 09:20 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
re: leverage - I don't find that to be the case. It's the ability to hold steady without concern for cars, lights, turns, downhills etc.
And the fact that there's no coasting. Even in what I thought were long, consistent efforts outside, I only realized how many microbreaks I took (even unintentionally) until I went inside and all those disappeared (rollers so power output needs to always be there).
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Old 02-26-21, 09:58 AM
  #190  
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yes, rigjht. I'm on rollers too. Albeit ones that move and have resistance.
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Old 02-26-21, 10:52 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
And the fact that there's no coasting. Even in what I thought were long, consistent efforts outside, I only realized how many microbreaks I took (even unintentionally) until I went inside and all those disappeared (rollers so power output needs to always be there).
My old Garmin just recorded time until I stopped it. So, if I got on the trainer for 90 min, it recorded 90 min. My PC8 auto starts/stops and only records time when it is receiving data - power, cadence, distance... I was pretty shocked at first at how much time I would spend coasting or resting when on the trainer. It was not uncommon for the PC8 to only record 65-70 min of a 90-min trainer session. Even yesterday, Strava shows I was on the bike for about 80 min. My PC8 shows 67 min of effort. To be fair though, I did take two work calls during my workout, and I generally stop pedaling when on the phone.
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Old 02-26-21, 10:54 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I've done a 90-min climb. I don't recall what my power was on that day. Regardless, I've never found climbing to be a great test for power though, largely because I rarely have the proper gearing so I'm grinding along at 50-60 rpm. Also, I do not like climbing. I'm quite bad at it.
If you're going hard on the climb and you blow up it's hard to just dial it back a little and recover, especially if you don't have the gears.
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Old 02-26-21, 11:24 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
My old Garmin just recorded time until I stopped it. So, if I got on the trainer for 90 min, it recorded 90 min. My PC8 auto starts/stops and only records time when it is receiving data - power, cadence, distance... I was pretty shocked at first at how much time I would spend coasting or resting when on the trainer. It was not uncommon for the PC8 to only record 65-70 min of a 90-min trainer session. Even yesterday, Strava shows I was on the bike for about 80 min. My PC8 shows 67 min of effort. To be fair though, I did take two work calls during my workout, and I generally stop pedaling when on the phone.
Part of why I despise a trainer. My anaerobic system performs better. I have no aerobic capacity - genetics, a father who smoked for 60 years, asthma from when I was 2 on, myself smoking 2 packs a day for 8 years.... my lungs - they no good. Regardless I have always compensated while riding by being a power on-power off repeat every few seconds kind of rider. I keep pedaling when in groups etc - as in the pedals are moving but the power applications is like "all on" then "all off". Kind of like holding in a paceline while riding a fixed gear at the track. A lot of being carried around by momentum interspersed with quick weight lifting sets.

Old coaches would constantly be like, "you aren't pedaling most of the time - look at your (can't remember the metric...like vi or some such) . Your power profile histogram for the ride is like a half pipe...it should be like a bell curve."

So yeah... I get it. I coast a crap ton. I never can on a trainer though so I think that's part of why it is so mind numbing to me. I thought games like zwift would increase the momentary coasting effect like in the real world but they don't. I feel ya.
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Old 02-26-21, 11:27 AM
  #194  
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I'm sure I've heard people say that back in the good old days, a mark of a solid racer was the ability to do 40km in 60 minutes of less on a road bike. Has anyone else heard that? Might be a fun 2021 challenge...
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Old 02-26-21, 11:30 AM
  #195  
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Yes.

I know it isn't a popular opinion amongst the TT geeks, but I think it would be a better sport if they did away with TT bikes. A hell of a lot more folks would do TTs I'd think.
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Old 02-26-21, 12:44 PM
  #196  
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Most riders interested in racing know that several time trials offer a Merckx division to ride ones road bike. At the Fiesta time trials, they have a Merckx division and then a conforming Merckx division where one rides a road bike similar to Merckx. Not many sign up for riding their road bike. We may get a couple out of a hundred entries.

Generally, racers, who ride the aero bikes, often ride a second time trial on their road bikes. In the Beat the Clock time trials in NorCal, they had a Merckx division and teams. I would do a 20K ITT aero and then a 20K TTT.

We had an evening time trial on the same course as Beat the Clock and racers showed up and raced whatever they had but mostly aero bikes.

Upshot...not much uptake for riding the road bike in a TT unless one is a trained time trialist. Hell, we could offer ebike time trials and once the ebike’s power was tapped out and the racer had to put in full human power for 20 Km, no one would show up.

Timed events are just too hard and demanding for most racers or they just do not want to put in the training necessary. So be it.
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Old 02-26-21, 12:48 PM
  #197  
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Showing up for an under registered second thought division isn't the same. I do mercx TTs. Northeast stage racing basically died, in no small part due to needing a TT bike. They started doing sway with TT bikes at some of those stage races.
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Old 02-26-21, 12:50 PM
  #198  
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When I moved to San Diego in 1979, I did a 10 mile time trial promoted by the San Diego Wheelmen. It was a flat time trial with a turnaround and all we had were road bike . I missed DFL by beating a junior. I coughed for a couple of days afterward. Who is going to take that deal? We had a guy that did 21 minutes on his road bike. We had 13 entries and that was a good turnout.
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Old 02-26-21, 01:51 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Yes.

I know it isn't a popular opinion amongst the TT geeks, but I think it would be a better sport if they did away with TT bikes. A hell of a lot more folks would do TTs I'd think.
I've never done a TT that didn't have a Merckx division. I totally understand the sentiment of making it simpler or more pure. Totally.

But at the level of not even wanting to attempt it due to not having a TT bike, you're a $25 set of clip ons from being over 85% the way to the aero gains of a TT bike. So every time I hear somebody local to me say that stuff I tell them they can borrow my old clip ons for FREE for however long they need.

I could argue that people owning $400 Scotty Cameron putters and $500 bazooka golf drivers keep me from playing golf too.

Each sport chooses the tech limits they see fit. With road bikes and TT we've already seen in road racing mass start at least the ban on the IAB. That came out of trying to make the road bike faster with what you've got. Same thing Merckx riders would do in a TT. My argument there is the clip ons and TT bike are safer than some stuff folks may try on a road bike to go faster.

If you make it so everybody has to as a rule ride the road bike on the darn hoods the same exact way............why even have a contest? Just have a trainer contest on gross power output at that point. You've gotta allow some ways for competitors to differentiate themselves in a contest that is a solo race against a clock.
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Old 02-26-21, 01:56 PM
  #200  
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Cool. I disagree. Like I said, TT geeks will always argue it. But the idea that you're the only hard men who want to go hard alone is silly and self important. I can roll out (and have) and podium the non aero bike class (often win) but the strongest guys are riding 10K TTs bikes in another class. Like I said, it all but killed northeast stage racing, and they started disallowing TT bikes in the the time trials.
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