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COVID has increased price of carbon road bikes

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COVID has increased price of carbon road bikes

Old 02-28-21, 09:40 AM
  #51  
Hiro11
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
1. A new Di2 Tarmac will provide significantly higher performance than your 30 year old bike did.
I don't understand this point. Of course modern bikes are better, just like modern computers, modern running shoes and modern cars are all better than offerings from the early nineties. Still, computers, sneakers and cars haven't seen anywhere near the price inflation that big name brand bikes have seen. Bikes are simply far more expensive these days, especially those from big popular brands like Specialized and Trek. Also, your point implies that we're paying purely for performance in paying these prices. No. You can get modern bikes for far less. For example, a Canyon Ultimate is far, far cheaper than a Tarmac but still one of the best bikes you can buy. Smaller brands like Ribble and Vitus make some great road bikes that are far less expensive. The Tarmac is a great bike, but you're paying for more than just performance for it.

2. Your inability to understand why people would spend so much money on a bike probably stems from your budget constraint versus theirs.
Ah, you think my comments are rooted in being a jealous broke guy. Er, no. I fully understand wanting to spend lots of money on bikes, I have done it myself on numerous occasions. A peek in my bike room would disprove your little theory.

My point is that if I were going to spend $12K on a bike, I would go to Firefly or Bishop and have them make something special. Spending that kind of cash opens up some very interesting possibilities. I wouldn't walk down to the local bike shop and buy a Tarmac that four other guys in my group already have and will be just another copy of last year's Tarmac in 2022. That's me, though.
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Old 02-28-21, 10:49 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
I don't understand this point. Of course modern bikes are better, just like modern computers, modern running shoes and modern cars are all better than offerings from the early nineties. Still, computers, sneakers and cars haven't seen anywhere near the price inflation that big name brand bikes have seen. Bikes are simply far more expensive these days, especially those from big popular brands like Specialized and Trek. Also, your point implies that we're paying purely for performance in paying these prices. No. You can get modern bikes for far less. For example, a Canyon Ultimate is far, far cheaper than a Tarmac but still one of the best bikes you can buy. Smaller brands like Ribble and Vitus make some great road bikes that are far less expensive. The Tarmac is a great bike, but you're paying for more than just performance for it.

Ah, you think my comments are rooted in being a jealous broke guy. Er, no. I fully understand wanting to spend lots of money on bikes, I have done it myself on numerous occasions. A peek in my bike room would disprove your little theory.

My point is that if I were going to spend $12K on a bike, I would go to Firefly or Bishop and have them make something special. Spending that kind of cash opens up some very interesting possibilities. I wouldn't walk down to the local bike shop and buy a Tarmac that four other guys in my group already have and will be just another copy of last year's Tarmac in 2022. That's me, though.
You've undercut your own argument by acknowledging that "modern bikes" can be purchased for "far less" than your cherry-picked example of the $7800 Tarmac. But there's a reason why the Tarmac is more expensive: Specialized is a more established brand with brick & mortar stores -- which means more reliable and easily-accessed warranty service and such, along with the chance to test-ride bikes prior to purchase; those things matter to some people, and they will happily pay more.

I never assumed that you are a "jealous broke guy" -- why would I? I don't know you and your situation. But you had expressed an inability to understand why someone would spend $7800 on a Tarmac ("I don't get it") without discussing your preference for, say, a custom Firefly or something similar. I do understand that: my last bike purchase was in that price range, and I went custom. But I do think I could've been equally happy on an off-the-rack bike for the same price, and that is a great choice for most people -- e.g., those who don't want to wait.
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Old 02-28-21, 11:18 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
You've undercut your own argument by acknowledging that "modern bikes" can be purchased for "far less" than your cherry-picked example of the $7800 Tarmac. But there's a reason why the Tarmac is more expensive: Specialized is a more established brand with brick & mortar stores -- which means more reliable and easily-accessed warranty service and such, along with the chance to test-ride bikes prior to purchase; those things matter to some people, and they will happily pay more.
This is a goal post shift. You argued that it makes sense for bikes to cost more now because they perform better than older bikes. I argue that there are plenty of modern bikes that perform well that don't cost as much. Injecting reasoning about bike shop support and such is not what I was arguing against and not part of your post. My point stands. Also, you ignored my main point: everything now is better than it was in 1990 and very few things have seen the inflation bike prices have seen. Road bikes just cost more these days. Even mountain bikes haven't pushed the pricing levels to the same degree as road bikes in recent years and there's certainly much more engineering and production cost going into mountain bikes.

Since you've accused me of "cherry picking" I'll throw in the Trek Madone and Cannondale Super Six Evo as being similarly overpriced compared to their rivals. Specialized models are just the best examples, made even worse by their repeated price increases in recent months. I really like Specialized bikes, but (opinion ahead) to me they are a rip off. I'll throw in Giant as a brand that makes top quality, sold in LBS bikes that offer a far better deal.

I never assumed that you are a "jealous broke guy" -- why would I?
Dude, c'mon. Your argument was that I don't understand why people spend that amount of money because of my budget. I'm telling you that's provably not the case. You're parsing words pretty closely here.
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Old 02-28-21, 12:08 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
This is a goal post shift. You argued that it makes sense for bikes to cost more now because they perform better than older bikes. I argue that there are plenty of modern bikes that perform well that don't cost as much. Injecting reasoning about bike shop support and such is not what I was arguing against and not part of your post. My point stands. Also, you ignored my main point: everything now is better than it was in 1990 and very few things have seen the inflation bike prices have seen. Road bikes just cost more these days. Even mountain bikes haven't pushed the pricing levels to the same degree as road bikes in recent years and there's certainly much more engineering and production cost going into mountain bikes.

Since you've accused me of "cherry picking" I'll throw in the Trek Madone and Cannondale Super Six Evo as being similarly overpriced compared to their rivals. Specialized models are just the best examples, made even worse by their repeated price increases in recent months. I really like Specialized bikes, but (opinion ahead) to me they are a rip off. I'll throw in Giant as a brand that makes top quality, sold in LBS bikes that offer a far better deal.

Dude, c'mon. Your argument was that I don't understand why people spend that amount of money because of my budget. I'm telling you that's provably not the case. You're parsing words pretty closely here.
You know, I think you make some good points. I was off-base with the first point, since pretty much ALL bikes were sold in brick & mortar stores in 1990. So, your comparison to a Spesh (and now Trek and Cannondale) is perfectly valid. And yes, I would agree that bikes have gotten more expensive out of proportion to their performance improvements, when considered vis-a-vis automobiles, electronics, and such. Yep, you're right about that. This is probably why companies like Canyon exist: because someone can undercut the (more expensive) brands that still sell out of physical locations.

You seem to think I was insulting you and your income. Given what you had written, my conclusion (which included the word "probably") seems justified. But I'm glad that you clarified your preference in your following post. I'm sure you have plenty of money. Feel better?
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Old 02-28-21, 12:14 PM
  #55  
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Who would have thought that in a global pandemic with disruptions to supply chains that prices would go up?

I'm shocked.
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Old 02-28-21, 12:25 PM
  #56  
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I suspect not only bikes but most goods will see radical increases in price levels in coming years and it will not stop, given the current global political trends. I told the guy who drives pickup around the city cutting people's lawns that before long, he will have to give up on his motorized tools, go back to old fashioned rakes, brooms and mechanical grass cutters and pull his trailer with those tools behind riksha like bike (because gasoline engine will be forbidden before long and he won't be able to afford pickup run on batteries).

In short, we are going backwards and in some years hence, you will nostalgically think of todays 'cheap' times. Run of the mill bikes will flood the market though as most folks will bike to work per force, not that they will like it. Like in India, rural China today. Automobiles will be affordable again only by the rich, like in the pre-Henry Ford times in US.
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Old 02-28-21, 02:02 PM
  #57  
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I paid less than $7,800 for a Cervelo with Ultegra Di2 and a bilateral power meter. That was before the pandemic though.
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Old 02-28-21, 05:01 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by vane171 View Post
I suspect not only bikes but most goods will see radical increases in price levels in coming years and it will not stop, given the current global political trends. I told the guy who drives pickup around the city cutting people's lawns that before long, he will have to give up on his motorized tools, go back to old fashioned rakes, brooms and mechanical grass cutters and pull his trailer with those tools behind riksha like bike (because gasoline engine will be forbidden before long and he won't be able to afford pickup run on batteries).

In short, we are going backwards and in some years hence, you will nostalgically think of todays 'cheap' times. Run of the mill bikes will flood the market though as most folks will bike to work per force, not that they will like it. Like in India, rural China today. Automobiles will be affordable again only by the rich, like in the pre-Henry Ford times in US.
What a load of bollocks!

The history of humankind, especially since the industrial revolution, has been one of increasing productivity, technological sophistication, and affluence. And yet you believe that the replacements for fossil fuels and our current internal combustion engines will be a move backwards to human-driven hand tools. There is absolutely nothing in history, nor in current technological advancements in human propulsion and energy generation, to support that conclusion. You really should learn something about renewable energies and the energy storage technologies that are now on the market.

Moving forward, there will be some challenges...But the biggest will be changing social/economic structures so that some people besides the wealthiest 10-15% get to enjoy decent lifestyles.

Last edited by Koyote; 02-28-21 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 02-28-21, 05:12 PM
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I get a chuckle watching folks sit with a leaf blower for a steady minute or two trying to get one stuck wet leaf to move, when a $10 rake would have sufficed. And then they move on to the next leaf grouping.
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Old 03-01-21, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
What a load of bollocks!

The history of humankind, especially since the industrial revolution, has been one of increasing productivity, technological sophistication, and affluence. And yet you believe that the replacements for fossil fuels and our current internal combustion engines will be a move backwards to human-driven hand tools. There is absolutely nothing in history, nor in current technological advancements in human propulsion and energy generation, to support that conclusion. You really should learn something about renewable energies and the energy storage technologies that are now on the market.

Moving forward, there will be some challenges...But the biggest will be changing social/economic structures so that some people besides the wealthiest 10-15% get to enjoy decent lifestyles.
I guess when we run out of cobalt we'll just, like, invent a substitute.
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Old 03-01-21, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I paid less than $7,800 for a Cervelo with Ultegra Di2 and a bilateral power meter. That was before the pandemic though.
Same... 3K for bike and 1k for Vector 3s in April 2020
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Old 03-01-21, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I get a chuckle watching folks sit with a leaf blower for a steady minute or two trying to get one stuck wet leaf to move, when a $10 rake would have sufficed. And then they move on to the next leaf grouping.
It snows where I live. Sometimes a lot. I have had snow blowers in the past. They were always hand me downs with all sorts of problems. I found I was spending more time getting them started, cleaned and moving the discharge chute than moving snow. With the last few years being really light snow year I just went back to shoveling by hand. These last few weeks have been filled with a lot of snow. I still was shoveling by hand. I started to notice that even in deep snow the guy across the street from me would be running his snow blower for a good 20 minutes before I would start shoveling and would still be running it another 10 minutes or so after I had finished shoveling.

As with all innovations or tools - they really only work best in certain situations.
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Old 03-01-21, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
It snows where I live. Sometimes a lot. I have had snow blowers in the past. They were always hand me downs with all sorts of problems. I found I was spending more time getting them started, cleaned and moving the discharge chute than moving snow. With the last few years being really light snow year I just went back to shoveling by hand. These last few weeks have been filled with a lot of snow. I still was shoveling by hand. I started to notice that even in deep snow the guy across the street from me would be running his snow blower for a good 20 minutes before I would start shoveling and would still be running it another 10 minutes or so after I had finished shoveling.

As with all innovations or tools - they really only work best in certain situations.
I normally don't mind shoveling, I look at it as a bit of cardio, but then I moved in to the current house on a corner with a semi-busy street on the long side of the lot. It's ******g soul-crushing to shovel that ~150 feet worth of sidewalk and then have a plow roar through at 30mph, sending up a wave of heavy, churned snow and depositing it, sometimes a foot deep, on to the just-cleared sidewalk. It's moments like those where I embrace the two-stage snow blower.

But yeah, most people would be better off with a shovel and a little gumption. Or kids.
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Old 03-01-21, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
It snows where I live. Sometimes a lot. I have had snow blowers in the past. They were always hand me downs with all sorts of problems. I found I was spending more time getting them started, cleaned and moving the discharge chute than moving snow. With the last few years being really light snow year I just went back to shoveling by hand. These last few weeks have been filled with a lot of snow. I still was shoveling by hand. I started to notice that even in deep snow the guy across the street from me would be running his snow blower for a good 20 minutes before I would start shoveling and would still be running it another 10 minutes or so after I had finished shoveling.

As with all innovations or tools - they really only work best in certain situations.
Ditto - still shoveling at 58 yrs old. I'm also the only person in my neighborhood without a riding lawnmower (or a service with riding mowers), and my lot is one of the larger ones -- about 2/3rds of an acre. When we bought the place, I went to price a riding mower with the accessories, and decided that I don't want to be a Hank Hill.
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Old 03-01-21, 11:53 AM
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Prices conversations... love the way anything that's increased substantially is attributed to a 'rip off' ... unless you like it. Cue George Carlin: the definition of an (insert dirty term here) is a guy driving 10mph faster or 10mph slower than you want to go. Funny thing about prices, almost none of them follow a predictable path. Example: in 1982, I went off to a pretty-top-notch university, and the annual cost of attending was just about the same price as a "better than mid-level BMW." And, that was a lot at the time, and a lot of people thought it was a rip-off. Now, I look at the cost of attending that school for a year, and ... what do you know?... it's about the same cost as a better-than-mid level BMW. Other things are on this "price growth curve" as well, such as medical care, food and cyber-attack provisioning for business. Thirteen years ago, a full round of cancer treatment ended up costing about $300,000. Now it's about $600,000. Hmmm, didn't get cheaper. The real point is that innovation has pulled a lot of every-day products OFF that curve, so they look like they're fairly priced, but actually they are CHEAP. Examples: flat screen televisions, computers, electronics in general; junk food; music & entertainment, it goes on. Anything that can be scaled cheaply or sourced globally. But as soon as you get to a product that demands special engineering and deserves respect, well, that's gonna cost ya, because it just doesn't scale and preferences become forefront. So, while I'll consider a $7000 bike, I certainly would never consider $200 running shoes. Preferences. Do you want to drive a $14,000 new car? It's out there, but you might not like it. And $90,000? Again, it's out there, but you might not like it. I just checked walmart, they've got the Roadmaster Granite Peak ready to pick-up for $98 (pickup only), and if you're a more discriminating buyer, the Hyper 700c Urban Bike for $178. Go get 'em, just check your preferences at the door on your way in. Everybody's got what they call optimal, but let's not conflate the OP and Geraint Thomas.

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Old 03-01-21, 12:21 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
What a load of bollocks!

The history of humankind, especially since the industrial revolution, has been one of increasing productivity, technological sophistication, and affluence. And yet you believe that the replacements for fossil fuels and our current internal combustion engines will be a move backwards to human-driven hand tools. There is absolutely nothing in history, nor in current technological advancements in human propulsion and energy generation, to support that conclusion. You really should learn something about renewable energies and the energy storage technologies that are now on the market.

Moving forward, there will be some challenges...But the biggest will be changing social/economic structures so that some people besides the wealthiest 10-15% get to enjoy decent lifestyles.
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