chipcom 

I can agree with that to a point, Danno. Heck I remember when I was the 'commish' and I told my cops, EMTs and firefighters that, if I was ever really messed up but alive, don't call the ambulance, just dump me in a ditch someplace and put me out of my misery.

Two thoughts to ponder:

1. All life has value. If it takes a law to require trying to save someone from their injuries, our world is more screwed up than even I thought. If someone is hurt, we do what we can to save them - it's the human thing to do.

2. While you and I might be lucky enough to have lots of health insurance, there are others, through no fault of their own, who do not. Imagine if the patient in question is the child of some family who does not have insurance...shall we not take the kid to the hospital? Have we come to the point in our society that we only value the lives of those who can pay?

chipcom 

Then someone like me comes along and blows your Darwin theory away because I live and thrive without falling in line with your obsession to control what others do, or subscribing to your fears and letting it affect the way I live my life. It just burns you up - as evidenced by the fact that you saw fit to immortalize my ugly mug in your sig. I'm still here, still free, living life to its fullest, while you are controlled by your own fears and frustrated by your inability to control others - and it ticks you off. Don't worry, you'll get over it someday, when you grow up, if you live.

chipcom 

I feel pretty....

belfast-biker

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the outcome of one person can't negate Darwinism.

Stacey

Make that two, and it's just a miniscule sampling.

ignominious

Wasn't going to post on this but I found two cents last night.

Personally I wear a seatbelt but I'm torn on the issue of compulsion. My cousin's wife was involved in an accident where the other driver suffered fatal injuries that would have been prevented by wearing a seatbelt. Despite the other driver choosing not to wear a seatbelt the intimate involvement in someone elses death took a large toll on cousin's wife. For a long time after she suffered nightmares, depression and required extensive counselling before she could accept that she wasn't responsible. To this day she refuses to drive and doesn't like long car journeys. All the statistics and calm, rational logic don't bear up that well when the psychie is subjected to traumatic experiences as many survivors from the WTC will tell you. Some people like Stacey think its perfectly fine to expose other people to that kind of trauma, I don't agree.

On the other hand, and this is where last nights two cents came in, I pulled up at a stop sign last night and this guy coming across realised he had lost the chance to blow through at the last minute jammed on his brakes. Because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he slapped his head on the steering wheel. As I was riding through I could barely keep a straight line because I was laughing so much. I can't imagine an instance where that isn't funny and really want to see it again.

Johnny_Monkey

Did he have a 'Semper Fi' tattoo?

belfast-biker

Oh.... cruel.

Why didn't I think of that first?

chipcom 

No but it negates your illogical association of seat belt/helmet use with Darwinism. Indeed, one could advance the theory that your fear and your reliance on factors other than those you were born to mitigate those fears is an indication of weakness, making you a candidate for extinction, since only the strongest should breed. But, unlike the moral conformist snobs, the rest of us are too polite to spout such nonsense in a public forum.

chipcom 

Yes it is cruel to remind you that you can't originate your own thoughts. Bad Monkey!

TexasGuy

heh. This thread still lives. *blows lightly on the embers and watches them expand and glow orange. *

Oh and you do have an interesting point there chipcom, about what if some child doesn't have the money to pay for hospital care and he/she is injured. Because on one boat, I abhor welfare of any type and all of the abuse that comes around to it. However in a situation like that.
I'm just glad I'm not a politician and don't have to roundhouse kick the idea around and formulate an opinion and perform actions upon it.

Pheard

Thats all you had to say in the beginning!! You acted like you wouldn't wear it just to defy the law.

Honestly, I don't really care if you wear one. I just can't believe that someone could be that stupid. I still love you though.

TexasGuy

Hey, people
drink
do drugs
have unprotected sex with strangers
I'm sure there is a slew of things that some people consider stupid.
And yet a greater majority of the population think I'm stupid for thinking those are stupid
And that's all I really have to say.

Stacey

Ummm, i did...

Actually in PA it's a bullsoht extortion law. It's a secondary offense. They can't pull me over and give me a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt. Also, the state passed it as part of the highway funds conditions. So, you see, the law really isn't in MY best interest, it's in the best interest of the Stare coffers for without passing it, they would lose federal funding.

I love you too.

TheDTrain

Great, a crappy song telling us how much life sucks. Great job avoiding the argument with clever one line replies. So what if we're going to die? Does that mean life is not worth living? Does that mean you can do whatever you want just because you're "free" to do it? Does that mean you are exempt from any responsibility or consciousness of your actions?

Your opinion is your opinion, but it makes absolutely no sense. Many would agree with me. It only shows your complete lack of respnsibility and sensibility. So what if you aren't afraid to die? There is a difference between having faith in God and not fearing death, and risking your life when you clearly know the dangers and consequences. Would you wear a seatbelt when someone else is driving? You are willing to put that burden of your death or injury on their shoulders in case of accidents? Okay, so you drive alone. What about your family? What about your friends? What would happen to them if you died or got really injured? What about kids or teens like me who read or listen to what you say and decide themselves seatbelts are stupid? Responsibility may mean doing things even though you do not want to. Are you prepared to put that grief and pain in those close to you for your own irresponsibility? That is stupid right there!

Seatbelts have been proven again and again and again to be effective and to save lives. Surely, no logical, thinking person can deny that fact. In accidents, seatbelt protect your body. ALL IT IS A MINOR INCONVENIENCE OF TIME AND COMFORT. ALL FACTS, DATA, AND COMMON SENSE IS AGAINST YOU. Who would not sacrifice a few seconds and some feelings of uncomfort for scientifically proven safety? Only one who is lazy, arrogant, stubborn, idiotic, or irresponsible enough to neglect one's self and others. Between seatbelts and no seatbelts, you would choose no seatbelt purely because it is the law and you want to be rebellious. That is totally illogical.

I believe it was Jean Jacque Rosseau who said, "Law is the expression of the general will." Laws function for society's benefit, or are supposed to. Laws are absolutely vital in society, I would be shocked if anyone denies that. There is laws that make sense and are generally supported by most (and there are laws that do not, but that's another topic). For instance, murder is crime and against the law. That makes sense, see? The seatbelt law also does. IT ISN'T A HUGE EVIL GOVERNMENT SCHEME TO INFRINGE ON OUR RIGHTS AND PUT DOWN THE LITTLE MAN! It's purely for the safety of everyone, for the safety of stubborn idiots like you, and so that your close ones and others' close ones may not suffer because of your idiocy.

Therefore, your argument is totally illogical. Add upon that the fact that you said you WOULD wear a seatbelt if it wasn't the law. That only shows your obsessive attitude of rebellion towards authority. You SHOULD wear a seatbelt if you are responsible, logical, and sensible enough to know its the right thing to do. You SHOULDN'T wear one only when no one tells you to wear one. You SHOULDN'T reject wearing one only because it is the law. You say you act under free will and freedom of choice, yet you clearly do not. You clearly are under extreme influence by government authority since the only reason you would do something would be if they weren't telling you to do it. Your drive to rebel and to do what the authorities tell you not to is stifling your freedom of choice!

The sole reason you do not wear seatbelts is that you are a rebel. Nevermind common sense, nevermind scientific data and conclusions, nevermind the general concensus, nevermind responsibility for your actions. Hey, murder is against the law too. Why don't you go on a mass killing spree, you rebel?

Great thinking, Stacey, great thinking.

TexasGuy

Sorry sir but you cannot rest that which was not a case

TheDTrain

Isn't ignorance bliss?

TexasGuy

Isn't name-calling so mature

TheDTrain

Most people live their lives in the "middle way" not straying into either extremes. You seems to be hinting that laws are valueless to society and humanity. Would you, a man of past military experience, want to live in a world of lawlessness? Do laws have value then? Do they make sense? No one can deny that seatbelts save lives. A seatbelt is not an act of fear. A seatbelt is not a violation of your precious natural rights. I protect myself because I care about my safety, my life (which has value to me, i hope yours has value to youself too), and my responsibility to myself, my close ones, humanity, and the world. A seatbelt is only a matter of minor discomfort and inconvienence. Therefore, wearing one is only a matter of common sense.

TexasGuy

Heh, that's the difference between this generation and the other generation. It's also the difference between the liberal east, and the rest of the usa

blonduathlongrl

thedtrain.. I actually thought this was the best argument by far. I was impressed and not to sound judge mental and i hope I dont but was even more impressed when you mentionned being a teanager. My hope would be to have more bright young poeple like yourself.

TheDTrain

I was a little bit harsh, but I haven't done the name-calling in this thread.
I've merely called actions and choices stupid.
I call 'em as I see 'em.

TexasGuy

Rules and welfare were invented for the stupid and the hapless. For those who couldn't make the right choice at the right time. For people who don't know better then to kill people, or run people over, or steal or that they have to save money or that they have to work hard.

TheDTrain

So what's your point? The bottom of society have no value because rules and laws have no value? That is ridiculous.

Laws are instituted for the general good of the people despite whatever conspiracy group you're a part of. They help and protect all people, or at least, they should, I have to clarify. They play a large role in protecting the little guys. They are not necessarily stupid, uneducated, or hapless. I have trouble understanding your argument, and even your viewpoint.

But if I interpret your argument correctly, then it is that conceited, selfish "greed is good" social Darwinism attitude that I'm criticizing.

Also, since when were we talking about welfare? That makes little sense to me.

TexasGuy

Because they fall in the same group. A good deal of the large Slew of rules and laws that have come about in the last century or 2 are because people have no self control. They do whatever they want.
Whether its spending money or doing something criminally wrong.
The 2 go hand in hand as people apply the same amount of self-control and decision making to doing stuff that should be common sense, as they do finances.