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Any boxing fans out there?

Old 09-17-17, 06:18 PM
  #351  
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There were two rounds that were very close and hard to score and if I gave them both to Canelo, then I could see how the fight could be scored a draw.


However Adelaide Byrd's 118-110 to Canelo is insane, right up there with CJ Ross scoring the Canelo-Mayweather fight as 114-114.
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Old 09-18-17, 04:45 PM
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I was discussing the Canelo vs GGG bout with a friend who's a former pro boxer and now a trainer, and another friend who's an astute boxing observer. None of us really had a dog in this hunt and we all thought Golovkin would dominate Canelo.

We all scored it for Canelo by one or two rounds.

And none of us really had any serious issues with Adalaide Byrd's scoring, because there were so many close rounds.

For example, rather than using the 10 point system on my own scorecard, I used check marks to indicate a definitive round and question marks on close rounds that could subjectively go either way. I had six rounds marked with question marks, two on the Canelo side, four on the Golovkin side.

In other words, I thought that when Canelo won rounds, he did so definitively. Four check marks, two question marks.

And when I gave a nod to GGG, it was questionable. Of the five rounds I gave Golovkin, only one had a check mark. The other four had question marks. He didn't really convince me, I just gave him the benefit of the doubt. That includes rounds 6 and 8, where Canelo showboated, leaned against the ropes while slipping and parrying most of Golovkin's shots, and seemingly trying to prove to GGG and the viewers that he -- Alvarez -- had such superior defensive skills that even when he was goofing around he couldn't be tagged, let alone hurt, by the supposedly fearsome GGG.

That's why I gave Golovkin only a slight edge in rounds 6 and 8, with question marks. He had his guy against the ropes and didn't really do anything. So it didn't prove GGG had superior ring generalship. It didn't prove that GGG was better at cutting off the ring, because Canelo chose to lean against the ropes -- he wasn't forced there. It didn't demonstrate effective aggression because GGG wasn't doing much real scoring.

If anything it demonstrated Canelo's superior defensive skills. But I'm not sure we can give him the old legendary Willie Pep status of supposedly winning a round without tossing a scoring a punch. So a question mark favoring GGG seemed appropriate. But not definitive.

Those were the types of rounds Byrd gave Canelo.

So, at worst, it indicated that Byrd saw Canelo's superior defensive skills as more convincing that GGG's mostly ineffectual punching.

That isn't the same thing as incompetence or corruption. Just a difference of opinion when few or no scoring blows are landing. It's the sort of thing that used to win rounds for Muhammad Ali, back in the day when boxing fans and writers appreciated ring mastery and defensive skills as highly as raw punching power. Nowadays most "fans" and too many boxing writers can only appreciate slugfests with two fighters exchanging blows unhindered by any defense, just to see which man falls down first.

Not to say I agree with Byrd's scoring. Only that I can understand why she scored that way.

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Old 09-18-17, 09:51 PM
  #353  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
We all scored it for Canelo by one or two rounds.
I might of gone three. The boxing pundit whom I'd initially read after the fight and before posting earlier tonight was maybe a little star struck on GGG to see it clearly, imo.

In other words, I thought that when Canelo won rounds, he did so definitively. Four check marks, two question marks.
That bodywork, jab and more varied arsenal of punches won rounds for Alvarez no matter the tally.

That's why I gave Golovkin only a slight edge in rounds 6 and 8, with question marks. He had his guy against the ropes and didn't really do anything. So it didn't prove GGG had superior ring generalship. It didn't prove that GGG was better at cutting off the ring, because Canelo chose to lean against the ropes -- he wasn't forced there. It didn't demonstrate effective aggression because GGG wasn't doing much real scoring.
Golovkin is who made the fight what it was. He showed the pressure but Canelo is getting better and better while age is beginning to mitigate Golovkin's relentlessness as it will in pressure fighters earlier than most. I'll have no problemo in picking Alvarez for even odds for a little bigger petty cash in any rematch.


If anything it demonstrated Canelo's superior defensive skills. But I'm not sure we can give him the old legendary Willie Pep status of supposedly winning a round without tossing a scoring a punch. So a question mark favoring GGG seemed appropriate. But not definitive.
Not as fast or quite as cajey as Pep but effective and more able to pause to set down on harder lb/-for-lb punches than Pep..
GGG is very dangerous still. He just didn't quite get to get off........just keep moving Canelo.
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Old 09-18-17, 09:58 PM
  #354  
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Old 09-18-17, 10:23 PM
  #355  
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
I might of gone three. The boxing pundit whom I'd initially read after the fight and before posting earlier tonight was maybe a little star struck on GGG to see it clearly, imo.
Definitely a lot of starstruck boxing pundits. Some of those guys have serious mancrushes on Golovkin. Can't say I blame 'em. GGG is more charismatic than Canelo and seems like a genuinely decent fellow, has learned English, has that impressive amateur record and a great backstory of "being ducked".

Problem is that too many pundits swallowed that "No fighter is more ducked than Golovkin" story without context. The middleweight division is the weakest it's been since Hopkins' prime. Even Hopkins had difficult scraping together top notch competition after Trinidad. No wonder GGG seemed like he was being ducked. It's a weak division and the nearest good competition was either at light middle or super middle.

That bodywork, jab and more varied arsenal of punches won rounds for Alvarez no matter the tally.
Yup, Canelo is much more versatile than I'd given him credit for. All he really lacks is confidence. If he'd seen in real time what I was seeing, he'd have been busier, especially with the jab. Not reckless or indifferent to Golovkin's power, but less worried about it. He made GGG miss, often, but didn't make him pay.

Golovkin is who made the fight what it was. He showed the pressure but Canelo is getting better and better while age is beginning to mitigate Golovkin's relentlessness as it will in pressure fighters earlier than most. I'll have no problemo in picking Alvarez for even odds for a little bigger petty cash in any rematch.
That was the expectation, but by round 7, after laying on the ropes and discovering Golovkin had nothing, Canelo should have been banging and making him pay. Instead Canelo pissed away rounds 7 and 8, showing off his defensive skills which only impressed us real boxing fans.

Not as fast or quite as cajey as Pep but effective and more able to pause to set down on harder lb/-for-lb punches than Pep..
GGG is very dangerous still. He just didn't quite get to get off........just keep moving Canelo.
Yeah, I wondered whether Canelo really does hit as hard as it seems, until I heard that "THWACK!" against GGG's gloves and body. If anything I'd be coaching him to ease up a bit off the power shots, a la The Second Coming of Big George Foreman, and play a little possum. "Just keep touching him", as George would say. Mix it up between lighter shots to keep the opponent off balance, and power shots to keep 'em honest. I'm betting that would conserve some of Canelo's stamina as well -- he seems to tire too easily for a young guy, and he looked jello-legged by the 9th round, although he recovered quickly by the final two rounds.

Also, I think Canelo seriously got GGG's attention with that flurry in round 12. While Golovkin kept barreling forward I think that was sheer guts and determination. I think Canelo rattled GGG's gourd in that final round.

I'm picking Canelo for a late round stoppage in a rematch. GGG's best shot at winning is to pressure for an immediate rematch. The longer he waits the more it favors Canelo.

And Golovkin better be careful of the super middle division. There are some talented guys licking their chops now in hopes of getting a big paycheck off GGG, realizing he's very beatable. For those guys, and the promoters, it's better to maintain the delusion that Golovkin was ripped off by bad judging against Canelo. Just keep repeating that myth until they make a match against Ward or someone else.

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Old 09-18-17, 11:07 PM
  #356  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Definitely a lot of starstruck boxing pundits. Some of those guys have serious mancrushes on Golovkin.
Canelo is the Golden Boy of boxing at the moment, in more ways than one.


Outside of Mayweather(who now probably is retired for good), Canelo is the clear cash cow in boxing.


I'm picking Canelo for a late round stoppage in a rematch. GGG's best shot at winning is to pressure for an immediate rematch. The longer he waits the more it favors Canelo.

Canelo is slotting into the Mayweather pattern of fighting in May and September only for now.


In the rematch I suspect Golovkin will up his pace more and Canelo who is notorious for taking time off in rounds, will wilt.


And Golovkin better be careful of the super middle division. There are some talented guys licking their chops now in hopes of getting a big paycheck off GGG, realizing he's very beatable. For those guys, and the promoters, it's better to maintain the delusion that Golovkin was ripped off by bad judging against Canelo. Just keep repeating that myth until they make a match against Ward or someone else.

Golovkin will never fight Ward(who now claims he can no longer make 168), nor do I suspect he will move up to 168lbs, anytime soon.


Golovkin will hopefully fight Billy Joe Saunders in December and become the 1st Undisputed Middleweight Champion since Bernard Hopkins and then fight Canelo in May 2018, if Canelo is willing.
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Old 09-22-17, 10:51 PM
  #357  
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belated RIP the raging Bronx Bull, Jake Lamotta

Six career defining fights with a prime Ray Robinson. The real Jake Lamotta is in the book not the relative choirboy in the movie......You have to be a little more than just nuts to mug a mob bookie.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...t-boxing-beast


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Old 09-23-17, 09:57 PM
  #358  
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Well, darn, I was just reading about LaMotta a week or so ago, just seeing what he was up to. He dabbled in live performances now and then which generally received poor reviews -- but as a fan of performance art and live theater I wished I'd been able to catch one of his shows.

That Raging Bull moniker didn't quite fit his actual boxing style. He wasn't really a power puncher and was more of a trickster with good boxing skills but mediocre defense offset by an incredibly hard skull. Kind of a proto-Roberto Duran, minus the punching power and slick head movement. It's amazing he lived so long and wasn't totally incapacitated by dementia. By most accounts he was more eccentric than anything else. Quite a character.
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Old 09-24-17, 06:31 AM
  #359  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Well, darn, I was just reading about LaMotta a week or so ago, just seeing what he was up to. He dabbled in live performances now and then which generally received poor reviews -- but as a fan of performance art and live theater I wished I'd been able to catch one of his shows.

That Raging Bull moniker didn't quite fit his actual boxing style. He wasn't really a power puncher and was more of a trickster with good boxing skills but mediocre defense offset by an incredibly hard skull. Kind of a proto-Roberto Duran, minus the punching power and slick head movement. It's amazing he lived so long and wasn't totally incapacitated by dementia. By most accounts he was more eccentric than anything else. Quite a character.
To clarify, the "Bronx Bull" was Jake's moniker and his tenacious, crowding, swarming style fit the name well as did that of Juan "Baby Bull" Diaz......except that Diaz got KO'd. As the posted video evidences, he did so with the ability to slip and roll with punches......otherwise he wouldn't be talking coherently. "Raging Bull" was merely the title of the book and movie. I think "Raging" apply defines his personal life which the book is more inclusive of.

He was a perfect example in your list of flawed personalities in your post 339 on the previous page.

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Old 09-24-17, 02:56 PM
  #360  
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Yup, LaMotta was a bull. I rewatched highlights of his bouts with Robinson, including the stoppage loss. The ref could have stopped it earlier -- Jake was really taking an unnecessarily prolonged beating.

I hadn't realized until checking the stats on Box Rec that in their first two bouts Robinson was still a welterweight against LaMotta's middleweight. Robinson was skinny as a stick then. Interesting to see how well Robinson transitioned to middle, something Tito Trinidad didn't quite manage.

Tito was a great welter and seemed like he had the frame to be a good middleweight. But at the heavier weight he looked comparatively sluggish and even like his heart wasn't really in it anymore. I suppose that's one of the main factors that contributed to Robinson's long and mostly successful career -- he was still able to get up for a bout, stay in good shape and stay motivated, even after his speed had diminished.
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Old 09-24-17, 04:26 PM
  #361  
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This is towards the end of LaMotta's career.......his 100th pro fight.

Robinson was probably the GOAT at 147 but the shame of it is that there's no video of these guys in their prime.

And it looks like somebody's late in paying the license fee for the forum's software.

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Old 09-28-17, 05:26 AM
  #362  
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i love box, Klichko is the best
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Old 09-29-17, 02:05 PM
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Wlad before Emanuel Steward was in his corner.......more exciting but not using assets to their best advantage then.
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Old 09-29-17, 09:10 PM
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Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy !!! A little promo above for a long awaited fight by me.......anyone good to climb into the ring with the Cuban expatriate.

Guillermo Rigondeaux vs Vasyl Lomachenko will fight on December 09, 2017 for the WBO World Super Featherweight Title

I'll be picking Rigo
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Old 09-30-17, 12:48 AM
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None too soon, either. Rigo needs a good matchup to showcase his skills and get him a good payday before he gets any older.

I'm inclined to go with Rigo too, even though Lomachenko is bigger. Rigo has solid skills and dazzling execution. Loma reminds me of a slightly less reckless version of Prince Naseem Hamed -- lots of flash, wide open to being exploited and countered by a fast guy with solid skills.
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Old 09-30-17, 11:56 AM
  #366  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post

I'm inclined to go with Rigo too, even though Lomachenko is bigger. .
This could turn into a 'fanboy' bet for me. I'd better measure this one carefully before looking for 'suckers'.
  • Vasyl Lomachenko -500
  • Guillermo Rigondeaux +350

early odds

.

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Old 10-09-17, 11:46 AM
  #367  
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Roy Jones Jr and Freddie Roach on the upcoming Rigondeaux vs Lomachenko WBO super featherweight championship fight on Dec 9th

Two very skilled fighters here so it won't likely be the casual fan's favored kind of brawl but both fighters capable of knocking out the other.
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Old 10-15-17, 06:53 PM
  #368  
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My favorite through the early '80s threw the picture perfect punches every one. A tall amateur fighter would do no better than to watch this one. Perfect leverage, set-up jabs and combinations up and down and all with some defensive skills. And a good finisher.
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Old 10-16-17, 07:30 AM
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Yep, Arguello was among the best of the stringbeans, including Sandy Saddler, Bob Foster and Tommy Hearns. Better balance, more naturally athletic, with compact and efficient punching, using his long reach effectively while also being a brutal inside fighter. Great stamina and patience but with the ability to end a fight quickly and early. His defense could have been better and he struggled against some opponents who moved well.
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Old 10-23-17, 05:51 PM
  #370  
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Here's one I never watched all the way through until last night: Arguello vs Bubba Busceme. I'd looked for the complete bout a few times but never found it. Mike Goodpaster uploaded it in 2014, and it just this week popped up on my YouTube recommended videos.

Busceme was one of the U.S.'s most successful amateurs and a Texas favorite back when I was getting into boxing. To my knowledge he's the only four-time national Golden Gloves champion (at different weights from 1969-'72), a national AAU champ and competed in the '72 Olympics.

I'd never seen a complete fight of Busceme's and watching him against Arguello it appeared he never quite managed the transition from amateur to pro styles. He still had the classic European standup stance, upright, rarely dipping, throwing very few body punches, and dancing in that frantic in-and-out style George Foreman called the "crow hop" to describe the young Oscar De La Hoya's footwork (before Oscar switched to emulating Mayweather's less mobile Philly shell defense to cope with age and his career-long stamina problems).

The southpaw Busceme pestered Arguello for most of the first three rounds with quick jabs and right-left combos, darting back just out of reach to avoid retaliation. But I noticed two problems right away. Bubba had very little steam on his punches, and he didn't circle to his right enough. He probably could have hit harder, but that would require adjusting his entire style -- stepping in, leaning forward just a bit, twisting more at the hips, doing all the stuff that also leaves a puncher open to counters.

Bubba had some knockouts over mostly Texas local opposition, but I'd guess based on the few video clips available that he was patient and waited for opportunities to counter and tire out an opponent before committing. That didn't work with Arguello, who was always willing to absorb punishment to dish it out much harder. Busceme did nothing to deter Arguello, and never quite learned the pro level defensive tricks of light punchers like Willie Pep, Willie Pastrano and Pernell Whitaker to thwart more aggressive, harder hitting opponents.

By the third and fourth rounds Arguello -- unable to score effectively with straight rights -- was connecting with left hooks over the shoulder of the shorter Busceme, who also had far less reach than Arguello. He stunned Busceme a few times with hooks. Over the next few rounds he gradually corralled Busceme into range of that devastating straight right.

The end came suddenly in the sixth round when a succession of hard shots spun Busceme around and he was out on his feet. In clips that cut off the moments leading up to, and the aftermath of the stoppage, it appeared almost as if Busceme quit. But in the full context of the stoppage, it seems pretty clear he was out on his feet and simply didn't fall down. Arguello could probably relate to that -- it's how both fights against Pryor ended, with Arguello almost incapable of falling down even to save himself.

Still a good fight, worth watching to see Arguello struggle more than usual to adapt to a technically better boxer, despite Arguello's advantages in height and reach.

Busceme retired to Belize and seems to have recovered from a fall during jogging that badly injured his neck and nearly paralyzed him. In the most current available photos he looks like an easy going hippie, the sort of fellow you'd expect to meet in Austin.

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Old 10-25-17, 02:14 AM
  #371  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Here's one I never watched all the way through until last night: Arguello vs Bubba Busceme. I'd looked for the complete bout a few times but never found it. Mike Goodpaster uploaded it in 2014, and it just this week popped up on my YouTube recommended videos.

Busceme was one of the U.S.'s most successful amateurs and a Texas favorite back when I was getting into boxing. To my knowledge he's the only four-time national Golden Gloves champion (at different weights from 1969-'72), a national AAU champ and competed in the '72 Olympics.

I'd never seen a complete fight of Busceme's and watching him against Arguello it appeared he never quite managed the transition from amateur to pro styles. He still had the classic European standup stance, upright, rarely dipping, throwing very few body punches, and dancing in that frantic in-and-out style George Foreman called the "crow hop" to describe the young Oscar De La Hoya's footwork (before Oscar switched to emulating Mayweather's less mobile Philly shell defense to cope with age and his career-long stamina problems).

The southpaw Busceme pestered Arguello for most of the first three rounds with quick jabs and right-left combos, darting back just out of reach to avoid retaliation. But I noticed two problems right away. Bubba had very little steam on his punches, and he didn't circle to his right enough. He probably could have hit harder, but that would require adjusting his entire style -- stepping in, leaning forward just a bit, twisting more at the hips, doing all the stuff that also leaves a puncher open to counters.

Bubba had some knockouts over mostly Texas local opposition, but I'd guess based on the few video clips available that he was patient and waited for opportunities to counter and tire out an opponent before committing. That didn't work with Arguello, who was always willing to absorb punishment to dish it out much harder. Busceme did nothing to deter Arguello, and never quite learned the pro level defensive tricks of light punchers like Willie Pep, Willie Pastrano and Pernell Whitaker to thwart more aggressive, harder hitting opponents.

By the third and fourth rounds Arguello -- unable to score effectively with straight rights -- was connecting with left hooks over the shoulder of the shorter Busceme, who also had far less reach than Arguello. He stunned Busceme a few times with hooks. Over the next few rounds he gradually corralled Busceme into range of that devastating straight right.

The end came suddenly in the sixth round when a succession of hard shots spun Busceme around and he was out on his feet. In clips that cut off the moments leading up to, and the aftermath of the stoppage, it appeared almost as if Busceme quit. But in the full context of the stoppage, it seems pretty clear he was out on his feet and simply didn't fall down. Arguello could probably relate to that -- it's how both fights against Pryor ended, with Arguello almost incapable of falling down even to save himself.

Still a good fight, worth watching to see Arguello struggle more than usual to adapt to a technically better boxer, despite Arguello's advantages in height and reach.

Busceme retired to Belize and seems to have recovered from a fall during jogging that badly injured his neck and nearly paralyzed him. In the most current available photos he looks like an easy going hippie, the sort of fellow you'd expect to meet in Austin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gNv5a48ozM
Yeah I recognized his face and remembered seeing it at the time (I saw nearly every one of Arguello's fights after '79 in real time anyway ). He reminded me of a southpaw version of Mike Quarry in both appearance and style. Mike wasn't a bad fighter either. He had beaten his way up the top tier before fighting Foster.


Bobby Chacon gave Alexis a fight before he began to taste Arguello's punches and got a little cautious after that about stepping into optimum punching range. Then he got it a bit worse until he bounced right up into that right. Alexis was shrewd about saving that right when he had to be.......one of the subtleties that made him great.

Last edited by Zinger; 10-25-17 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 10-26-17, 04:56 PM
  #372  
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Yeah, re-watching Chacon vs Arguello, imagine how good Bobby could have been if he'd really applied himself more consistently. So much talent, so little dedication to training. If I'm recalling correctly he was fined or threatened with suspension after that second(?) bout against Ruben Oliveras, for coming in so poorly prepared -- out of shape, had to sweat himself into dehydration to make weight, got blown out in two rounds.

Bobby was lucky he got cut against Arguello. Saved him from a worse beating. He was too game to quit for his own good.

But Bobby showed how Arguello could be beaten by a mobile, ring savvy and unorthodox fighter who was also in top condition -- which turned out to be Aaron Pryor.
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Old 10-28-17, 02:36 AM
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Undefeated KO artists Fernando Vargus and Felix Trinidad go to war right away in their 2000 thriller

Something I didn't like about the fight though but it became part of the drama of it. I won't spoil it for the viewer.
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Old 10-28-17, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
Undefeated KO artists Fernando Vargus and Felix Trinidad go to war right away in their 2000 thriller

Something I didn't like about the fight though but it became part of the drama of it. I won't spoil it for the viewer.
Tito's dirty tactics? He got away with a lot of deliberate forearms and elbows. And he used low blows almost immediately after he got knocked down. Gave himself more time to recover, whether the ref only paused the fight to warn him, or to give the other guy time to recover.
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Old 10-28-17, 04:47 PM
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In retrospect, looking back at Vargas vs Trinidad, the main mistake Vargas made was the same one Ray Leonard made against Roberto Duran in their first meeting -- stationary posing in front of a slugger.

Vargas would have done better if he'd learned Miguel Cotto's ability to adapt. Early in Cotto's career he developed a reputation as a slugger, but he could adapt and outbox tough opponents. First time I noticed that was against the tough and wily Lovemore N'dou. Cotto discovered pretty quickly he wasn't tougher or harder hitting than N'dou, so he switched tactics and outboxed him.

Vargas had good boxing and moving skills but didn't use them against Trinidad. And Trindad needed a stationary target so he could set to plant his feet. Occasionally Trinidad could connect with the overhand right while moving forward, but usually needed to be set to throw the left hook. And Vargas accommodated Trinidad by posing motionless in front of him, thinking he could counterpunch with Trinidad and not pay a worse price.

That cobra strike technique Vargas tried works for very few boxers -- notably Shane Mosley and Roy Jones Jr -- but it even failed those guys on occasion in bad style matchups against taller, rangier opponents: against Vernon Forrest, in Mosley's case; and against Antonio Tarver, in Jones' case. No way that was going to work out well for Vargas against Trinidad.

And I always had misgivings about Vargas from early on. He was a helluva lotta fun to watch, but I noticed early on he had a tell that indicated he wouldn't have a long career without brain damage. Instead of getting staggered and wobbly like many fighters when he took a decent shot, he'd freeze for a split second. It was in a couple of his bouts before beating Campas for the title. A hard jab or decent straight right would cause Vargas to freeze like a statue, for only a split second. He didn't stagger, stumble or get wobbly. But he didn't move either -- didn't move backward or circle away for a moment to collect himself. That's always a bad sign.

I'm guessing Fernando's family, advisers and he himself recognized the early warning signs and he wisely stayed retired after being stopped a few times. I always liked the guy and his work ethic, and his confident brashness was enjoyable rather than annoying.
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