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Weightlifting Lifting And Endurance Cycling

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Weightlifting Lifting And Endurance Cycling

Old 10-28-18, 02:17 AM
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colnago62
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Weightlifting And Endurance Cycling

I bought the All New Cyclist’s Training Bible 5th Edition by Joe Friel. I read his 1st edition years ago and was interested in how/if he integrated power training into his original set of ideas. Reading through the book, it seems like he is a big proponent of weights to build climbing and sprinting power ( He states this on the back of the book). Chapter 12 is devoted muscular force training. His book has a rather impressive bibliography, Chapter 12 having quite a few research papers attached to it.

The Allen and Coggan book, Training With A Power Meter takes a different position. The book states that strength is not a limiter in a cyclist’s ability to produce power. The book then gives a case study of why this is so and brings up a study done in New Zealand that supports the books positon (The name of the report and the university wasn’t mentioned). The book does not have a bibliography.

All these authors are are well respected as trainers and coaches. They all have has success as coaches. To lift or not to lift doesn’t seemed to be settled science.

Last edited by colnago62; 10-28-18 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 10-28-18, 02:54 AM
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IME Strength = Comfort.
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Old 10-28-18, 03:51 AM
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Point being, too much endurance riding without strength training can cause a loss of strength.
This btw was my experience. I am physically stronger now. I believe I ran myself in the ditch by too much endurance riding, not enough rest and not enough weight bearing exercise.

Mega endurance training creating best fitness to me is a myth. A myth I used to believe. Ride more miles and get stronger. Didn't apply to me. Get stronger through shorter duration cycling and more intensity is what I found to build more strength...not repetitive high mile rides at lower intensity. No different than training with specificity using HR monitor and/or Power Meter to particular zones.

For weight training, you can do circuit training at the gym...or...just do weight bearing at home...planks, pushups, squats, curls with free weights.
Rest is big too. Gotta let the body rebuild after breaking it down. At one point, I was riding too many high mileage rides in succession without enough rest.

Btw, I apply the same in the pool. I cross train cycling and swimming. More intensity, less duration for greater strength once cardio base is established.

Last edited by Campag4life; 10-28-18 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 10-28-18, 05:45 AM
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Weight bearing exercise for health is well documented, isn't it? Life is more than cycling.
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Old 10-28-18, 06:03 AM
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Old 10-28-18, 06:07 AM
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Friel is old-school.
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Old 10-28-18, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Point being, too much endurance riding without strength training can cause a loss of strength.
What kind of strength are you talking about?
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Old 10-28-18, 07:00 AM
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Yep

Especially core strength

Originally Posted by Machka View Post
IME Strength = Comfort.
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Old 10-28-18, 07:38 AM
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I just finished reading "Maximum Overload for Cyclists" by Jaques DeVore and Roy Wallack who advocate specific weight training to build cycling speed and endurance. In part because of my age, I have been weight training for a number of years for functional strength for daily living and sports. I still deal with chronic low back issues but I think I am able to still cycle, golf, hike and be active because of the time spent in the gym.
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Old 10-28-18, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I bought the All New Cyclist’s Training Bible 5th Edition by Joe Friel. I read his 1st edition years ago and was interested in how/if he integrated power training into his original set of ideas. Reading through the book, it seems like he is a big proponent of weights to build climbing and sprinting power ( He states this on the back of the book). Chapter 12 is devoted muscular force training. His book has a rather impressive bibliography, Chapter 12 having quite a few research papers attached to it.

The Allen and Coggan book, Training With A Power Meter takes a different position. The book states that strength is not a limiter in a cyclist’s ability to produce power. The book then gives a case study of why this is so and brings up a study done in New Zealand that supports the books positon (The name of the report and the university wasn’t mentioned). The does not have a bibliography.

All these authors are are well respected as trainers and coaches. They all have has success as coaches. To lift or not to lift doesn’t seemed to be settled science.
I just finished Friel's Cycling Over 50 or whatever the title is. I've always had a little disagreement with his training methods because to me he seems to be a crit racer and so the most important things to him are the strength to make continuous and repeated accelerations. While I'm not a racer I think that climbing offers more than the high stress training he suggests. The normal variations on a hard climb offer more in the way of on and off efforts in my view.

But I will say that if you DO follow his training schedules you absolutely will improve your sprint and accelerations. But you must have a point of view as well. As you age your body is less strong whether you like it or not. If you do not accept that and train to hard for your capacity you will have problems and possibly serious problems. All of the fast guys in our aging group now have physical problems whereas mine are relatively light because I am not racing everywhere all the time. The fastest of the group would ride with kids because he liked to believe he was bulletproof. He now is on his second pacemaker. Another has had serious gastrointestinal damage. But they STILL want to be the first to the top of the hill. I'll just poke along as an endurance rider.

I stay as far away from weight training as possible because that is a very good way to damage your joints. Most especially as you grow older. Your joints WILL wear out. It's only a question of when and I'd as soon that I was dead and buried before mine are gone.
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Old 10-28-18, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
How do you know whether his lifting helps or hinders his cycling performance?
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Old 10-28-18, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Friel is old-school.
Please expand. Presuming you are impling that weight lifting may not be directionally correct to cycling...a shift in paradigm?

I believe this has come up before on the forum not long ago. Perhaps it portends more to 'type' of cycling...road racing which favors endurance versus track which favors brute force, latter no gears, standing start, massive pedal force at low cadence.
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Old 10-28-18, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Friel is old-school.
He seems to have a lot of data in the form of various research papers and studies to support his position. I haven’t read any of those reports, so I don’t know if his conclusions match theirs. It would interesting to find out what other coaches of advanced athletes are doing.
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Old 10-28-18, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
How do you know whether his lifting helps or hinders his cycling performance?
I don’t know, maybe it helps him the same way that it helps this other guy?
https://t.co/KZeZ102E6d
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Old 10-28-18, 12:34 PM
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Unless you're talking about racing on a track, which we're not, obviously, weight-lifting isn't going to be any beneficial to you than, say, hopscotch. What weight training will do is strengthen your muscles all around, make your connective tissues stronger, make your skeletal tissues denser, give you a stronger core. The result may be that you can stay on the bike longer, keep longer in a position that allows you to pedal more efficiently, stave off injury, and possibly allow you to train harder/longer/more frequently, and in the end improve your endurance. Um, I guess it is better than hopscotch.

Strength training is just plain good for you. Ideally, everyone should be doing it in one for or another.
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Old 10-28-18, 12:34 PM
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It also depends on your job.
If you are active at work, eg, a builder, moving, lifting etc all day your needs are different to someone who sits at a desk all day and cycling is the only physical thing you do.
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Old 10-28-18, 01:02 PM
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Rube may speak his mind at some point but the notion that weightlifting doesn't help cyclists is not an uncommonly held notion. I do agree with what mcours wrote however...believe he said it well.

Look at how comparatively weak in upper body at least some of the TdF winners have been like Contador and Wiggins. They don't look like they could bench press 100 lbs.
They are not physically strong in the classical sense. A guy like Sagan or Kittel look like they have some physical strength of course and pretty easy to pick them out of the peloton as good sprinters. Just like in track and field, sprinters are physically stronger than distance runners.

Pic of Wiggins in his 'so called prime' around the time he won the TdF. Looks like a war refuge and too weak to stand. He looks healthier now.
Attached Images
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Old 10-28-18, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Please expand.
Some of his methodologies are quite old.
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Old 10-28-18, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post


He seems to have a lot of data in the form of various research papers and studies to support his position. I haven’t read any of those reports, so I don’t know if his conclusions match theirs. It would interesting to find out what other coaches of advanced athletes are doing.
You can through various online outlets.
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Old 10-28-18, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclintom View Post
I just finished Friel's Cycling Over 50 or whatever the title is. I've always had a little disagreement with his training methods because to me he seems to be a crit racer and so the most important things to him are the strength to make continuous and repeated accelerations. While I'm not a racer I think that climbing offers more than the high stress training he suggests. The normal variations on a hard climb offer more in the way of on and off efforts in my view.

But I will say that if you DO follow his training schedules you absolutely will improve your sprint and accelerations. But you must have a point of view as well. As you age your body is less strong whether you like it or not. If you do not accept that and train to hard for your capacity you will have problems and possibly serious problems. All of the fast guys in our aging group now have physical problems whereas mine are relatively light because I am not racing everywhere all the time. The fastest of the group would ride with kids because he liked to believe he was bulletproof. He now is on his second pacemaker. Another has had serious gastrointestinal damage. But they STILL want to be the first to the top of the hill. I'll just poke along as an endurance rider.

I stay as far away from weight training as possible because that is a very good way to damage your joints. Most especially as you grow older. Your joints WILL wear out. It's only a question of when and I'd as soon that I was dead and buried before mine are gone.
A lot of truth in your post. Same with some of the guys I ride with.
I don't know if you guys follow Lennard Zinn's remarkable journey to stay on the bike. He is perhaps one of the great cycling experts we have today and yet he has suffered some major health setbacks. Of course the pretty famous article about heart damage due to excessive endurance training:

VeloNews - Are endurance athletes damaging their hearts?

Zinn is a victim of this. But he has struggled with a very difficult sitbone issue as well.

Some may know as a result Zinn now rides an e-bike. He in fact makes one that is very very nice, a design I would consider in fact with custom Ti frame and Bosch 500w motor and 500W's will propel the bike to 28mph...perhaps with mild assistance...but fast enough.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/06/bik...cyclist_470738

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Old 10-28-18, 02:22 PM
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To be in good overall physical health you need both. Although pros may sacrifice one for the other for good reason. There's only one way to get stronger and that's through progressive resistance. Riding more increases endurance, not strength.
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Old 10-28-18, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post


I don’t know, maybe it helps him the same way that it helps this other guy?
https://t.co/KZeZ102E6d
Completely different workouts.

The type of workouts that make sense for someone whose full time job is cycling are not necessarily applicable to those of us devoting 10-15 hrs/wk to training.
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Old 10-28-18, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Unless you're talking about racing on a track, which we're not, obviously, weight-lifting isn't going to be any beneficial to you than, say, hopscotch. What weight training will do is strengthen your muscles all around, make your connective tissues stronger, make your skeletal tissues denser, give you a stronger core. The result may be that you can stay on the bike longer, keep longer in a position that allows you to pedal more efficiently, stave off injury, and possibly allow you to train harder/longer/more frequently, and in the end improve your endurance. Um, I guess it is better than hopscotch.

Strength training is just plain good for you. Ideally, everyone should be doing it in one for or another.
What I found interesting was that Friel is recognized as an endurance coach and the book is aimed at endurance athletes. I wonder if he is an outlier amongst those in the road race, triathlete communities, or are there other coaches doing what he is doing? In the book he states, “Let’s start with physics. From that perspective, power is the product of force and velocity, and it cans be expressed with the formula power equals force times velocity:

P = F x v “

I have been under the belief that in general lifting has a negative impact on endurance athletes. However, Joe Friel seems to think different and has an impressive amount of data that uses to support his position. Doesn’t mean he is correct, but does make me pause and wonder.
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Old 10-28-18, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Completely different workouts.

The type of workouts that make sense for someone whose full time job is cycling are not necessarily applicable to those of us devoting 10-15 hrs/wk to training.
They’re both core body workouts. Except one guy is a 3 time world champion, and the other is a professional airline pilot.

But look, don’t mean to split hairs. People can choose to do the workouts, or not. Do whatever needs to be done to perform on the bike. These guys are both very strong riders and I think their core body strength has something to do with it.
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Old 10-28-18, 04:40 PM
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It's not settled opinion, but it is settled science. See:
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...e-athlete.html
for more opinions and workouts.
Then see:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post17865790
for the scientific papers.

The important takeaways are
#1 don't get injured! Meaning you have to have good form and work up to it. This takes time and education.
#2 you get results by lifting heavy and using the appropriate range of motion, see the papers above. If you're doing it right as a road cyclist, you won't put on much muscle mass, just get stronger and have better endurance.
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