Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Saddle woes from injuries

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Saddle woes from injuries

Old 09-10-19, 03:11 PM
  #1  
kmsoars
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Saddle woes from injuries

I am 6'6" tall and ride a Specialized Allez Sport largest frame they made at the time. Its all aluminum. Anyway I have been having saddle woes for quite some time. I have been fitted many times and purchased multiple saddles which have been "okay" but still not great. The problem is I have wide hips for my height and my sit bones are spaced far apart. Most of the saddles just reach that distance, but only barely. And getting in miles is not the problem. I've toughed out many a ride for 5-7,000 miles a season. The bigger problem now is I suffer hip injuries sustained by getting hit by cars twice now. The first one the woman came out from two buildings without looking or stopping and nailed me in the back where it shattered my wheel and me going over the bars. I have significant hip problems now right side because of those two incidents and haven't been back on the bike for almost 2 years trying to recover. I tried to do some spinning at home with my CycleOps trainer, but the pain is just too much. I have been doing PT which helps, but still doesn't resolve the pain issues. I turn 57 this week and the joints keep getting worse instead of better. Makes me sick because I was in the best shape ever when I was riding good miles and now seem to be degenerating into a mess. My thought was if I just get back on the bike I can work the rest of the kinks out and get rolling again. I have been seeing gel saddle covers, but have seen mixed pros and cons reviews. The options are overwhelming to just do trial and error again. I don't want to get back into going through multiple saddles trying to find the right one which hasn't worked over the 15-20 years I have been cycling. Right now all I want is comfort to do long rides. I don't really care how "Fred" I look anymore just want miles without unnecessary pain. Any suggestions on what to do? Greatly appreciate all advice!
kmsoars is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 03:30 PM
  #2  
dagray 
Senior Member
 
dagray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Boardman, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,748

Bikes: Orbea Orca,Raleigh Talus 29er, Centurion Le Mans 12 speed

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Liked 83 Times in 42 Posts
Selle SMP is making a saddle that is 150mm wide which might help you out.

Dave
__________________
If you see an old fat guy levitating through town with his legs pumping furiously... well don't worry there is a bicycle underneath me.
dagray is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 03:34 PM
  #3  
BarryVee
Senior Member
 
BarryVee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: N. California
Posts: 156

Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6, Santa Cruz Tallboy 27.5+

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Maybe time to change horses.

Recumbent? Think thats where Id go.
BarryVee is offline  
Likes For BarryVee:
Old 09-10-19, 03:36 PM
  #4  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 57 Posts
I always think that for the most part, saddles themselves are not generally the problem with saddle pain.
More often than not the pain is related to the overall fit.
A lot of the time saddle pain can be traced back to a saddle that is to high, which leads to rocking, which leads to pain.
In your case with your hip problems this rocking may be even more pronounced.
You may also have a functional leg length discrepancy which basically means that when you are on the bike, you are reaching more with one leg.

I know you said you ave had fits, but my own experience is that many fitters simply stick you on a bike, and then follow the pre-set computer program to fit you. What may be needed is a fitter that looks at your fit from a bio-mechanical POV.

Have a look at Steve Hoggs website to see if he has a fitter near you (bottom of page).
sumgy is offline  
Likes For sumgy:
Old 09-10-19, 03:53 PM
  #5  
berner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 4,319

Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 648 Post(s)
Liked 477 Times in 289 Posts
You have not mentioned saddles you have tried. I would suggest you take a look at women's saddles which can be found in wider sizes. I use a men's saddle at 155mm wide and previously a women's saddle. I googled Specialized saddles. The one in the link is 168mm wide but other brands with wide dimensions should be available. https://www.specialized.com/us/en/wo...=239696-159199 The second link is to a noseless saddle for less money. https://www.modernbike.com/product-2126176594?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1ryerZ3H5AIViZ6zCh3FeAmeEAQYBCABEgJEn_D_BwEr
Early in my cycling career I also had difficulty finding a saddle I could live with but fortunately I have a stubborn streak and eventually found what was needed. Hang in there and good luck.
berner is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 04:56 PM
  #6  
philbob57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago North Shore
Posts: 1,613

Bikes: frankenbike based on MKM frame

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked 223 Times in 133 Posts
Can you say more about where the pain is?
philbob57 is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 05:58 PM
  #7  
kmsoars
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Before the injury the pain was bruising on both sit bones. Now its just sitting on the saddle. My right hip hurts pretty bad going through rotation.
kmsoars is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 06:01 PM
  #8  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by kmsoars View Post
Before the injury the pain was bruising on both sit bones. Now its just sitting on the saddle. My right hip hurts pretty bad going through rotation.
IMO this is nothing to do with the saddle.
It is to do with your saddle height and relates to what I posted earlier about functional or actual leg length discrepancy.
sumgy is offline  
Likes For sumgy:
Old 09-10-19, 06:06 PM
  #9  
kmsoars
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've had several fittings from simple shops checks at various places to one of a kind laser plumb bob fittings from the best resource north side of town. The most recent was a saddle fit at a Specialized dealer trained to fit for their bikes where I made impressions when I sat and then they used that information to choose a saddle which in the long run turned out to be hard as a brick. Then when you tried to ride on the crappy, paint mixer roads around me it really added to the bruising.

I've tried various saddles from just about all manufacturers and types. None was perfect. I just had to make do and then sort out the pain as I went making sure to get off and walk around some at SAG stops. The problem was once I get one area of pain resolved like sit bone bruising then it would create another issue somewhere else like perineum numbness. I tend to be pretty stubborn, but this search has been exhausting especially now that I have the added hip pain from injuries sustained getting hit by cars. It has taken the fun out of it, but I'm not willing to give up.
kmsoars is offline  
Old 09-10-19, 06:14 PM
  #10  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by kmsoars View Post
I've had several fittings from simple shops checks at various places to one of a kind laser plumb bob fittings from the best resource north side of town. The most recent was a saddle fit at a Specialized dealer trained to fit for their bikes where I made impressions when I sat and then they used that information to choose a saddle which in the long run turned out to be hard as a brick. Then when you tried to ride on the crappy, paint mixer roads around me it really added to the bruising.

I've tried various saddles from just about all manufacturers and types. None was perfect. I just had to make do and then sort out the pain as I went making sure to get off and walk around some at SAG stops. The problem was once I get one area of pain resolved like sit bone bruising then it would create another issue somewhere else like perineum numbness. I tend to be pretty stubborn, but this search has been exhausting especially now that I have the added hip pain from injuries sustained getting hit by cars. It has taken the fun out of it, but I'm not willing to give up.
Plumb bobs, Specialized..............enough said.
Sorry, but it is NOT your saddle IMO.
Please re-read my first post and seek out a fitter that understands bio-mechanics and does not just rely on "robo-fitting".
sumgy is offline  
Likes For sumgy:
Old 09-11-19, 09:36 AM
  #11  
phughes
Senior Member
 
phughes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,069
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 576 Post(s)
Liked 478 Times in 286 Posts
Originally Posted by kmsoars View Post
I've had several fittings from simple shops checks at various places to one of a kind laser plumb bob fittings from the best resource north side of town. The most recent was a saddle fit at a Specialized dealer trained to fit for their bikes where I made impressions when I sat and then they used that information to choose a saddle which in the long run turned out to be hard as a brick. Then when you tried to ride on the crappy, paint mixer roads around me it really added to the bruising.

I've tried various saddles from just about all manufacturers and types. None was perfect. I just had to make do and then sort out the pain as I went making sure to get off and walk around some at SAG stops. The problem was once I get one area of pain resolved like sit bone bruising then it would create another issue somewhere else like perineum numbness. I tend to be pretty stubborn, but this search has been exhausting especially now that I have the added hip pain from injuries sustained getting hit by cars. It has taken the fun out of it, but I'm not willing to give up.
A lot of people get, "professional," fits, and end up with a too high saddle. Mine was high, and I went though a period of frustration and pain as a result. I wasn't rocking, but I had saddle pain, perineum, and hip and back pain. My Brooks B17 though showed me what the issue was. As a result of the too high saddle, I dropped to one side to compensate, that showed up as the dimples in the seat being skewed to the left side.

I dropped the saddle a bit, then a bit more, and still had issues. During a recent tour, I had some discomfort, and finally dropped it the last bit I was hesitant to do, instant saddle nirvana. I now have zero pain, zero. The dimples have now formed where they should be. The last day of the tour was 76 miles, and I felt as good when I got off the bike, as I did when I began the day, tired, but no pain or discomfort.

I had my hip pain for years as a result of the seat height. It took a round of steroids to get rid of the pain. Now that the seat height is correct for me, I am no longer aggravating it by riding.

Sumgy has already suggested Steve Hogg's site, and I highly recommend it as well. Here is a good place to begin: https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ard-can-it-be/
phughes is offline  
Likes For phughes:
Old 09-11-19, 10:16 AM
  #12  
Notso_fastLane
Senior Member
 
Notso_fastLane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Layton, UT
Posts: 1,587

Bikes: 2011 Bent TW Elegance 2014 Carbon Strada Velomobile

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 615 Post(s)
Liked 676 Times in 407 Posts
Originally Posted by BarryVee View Post
Recumbent? Think thats where Id go.
Seconded. At least try a few out.
Notso_fastLane is offline  
Likes For Notso_fastLane:
Old 09-11-19, 10:44 AM
  #13  
frogmorton
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 15 Posts
You might try the adaptive cycling forum.
frogmorton is offline  
Old 09-11-19, 01:42 PM
  #14  
philbob57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago North Shore
Posts: 1,613

Bikes: frankenbike based on MKM frame

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 441 Post(s)
Liked 223 Times in 133 Posts
What does your doc say about an artificial hip?
philbob57 is offline  
Old 09-11-19, 03:49 PM
  #15  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by phughes View Post
I had my hip pain for years as a result of the seat height. Now that the seat height is correct for me, I am no longer aggravating it by riding.
Same.
sumgy is offline  
Likes For sumgy:
Old 09-11-19, 04:47 PM
  #16  
Sojodave
Senior Member
 
Sojodave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Utah
Posts: 526

Bikes: Fezzari Fore CR3 Di2

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Liked 99 Times in 53 Posts
I'm afraid to give you any suggestions if you're experiencing that much pain; however, the Brooks Cambium C17 or C19 is wide and people rave about it for distance riding. Plus, because it is rubber, you don't have to break it in like the leather version of Brooks Saddles. You can also get it carved with a cut-out. I have struggled with saddles and I spent 2.5 years on the Specialized Power Saddle. I started getting pain on long-distance rides and switched to a Romin Evo.

Curved saddles like the Romin Evo or the SMP support you different than flatter saddles.

I have to agree with the posters above, your problem doesn't sound like a saddle problem. I think you need to see a Physician who is a cyclist.

Good luck, I hope you find a solution.
Sojodave is offline  
Old 09-11-19, 05:05 PM
  #17  
Unca_Sam
The dropped
 
Unca_Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,967

Bikes: Pake C'Mute Touring/Commuter Build, 1989 Kona Cinder Cone, 1995 Trek 5200, 1973 Raleigh Super Course FG, 1966 Schwinn Deluxe Racer, 1960/61 Montgomery Ward Hawthorne "thrift" 3 speed, by Hercules

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1432 Post(s)
Liked 714 Times in 498 Posts
Originally Posted by Sojodave View Post
I'm afraid to give you any suggestions if you're experiencing that much pain; however, the Brooks Cambium C17 or C19 is wide and people rave about it for distance riding. Plus, because it is rubber, you don't have to break it in like the leather version of Brooks Saddles. You can also get it carved with a cut-out. I have struggled with saddles and I spent 2.5 years on the Specialized Power Saddle. I started getting pain on long-distance rides and switched to a Romin Evo.

Curved saddles like the Romin Evo or the SMP support you different than flatter saddles.

I have to agree with the posters above, your problem doesn't sound like a saddle problem. I think you need to see a Physician who is a cyclist.

Good luck, I hope you find a solution.
Not sure where you are, but the medical center at Ohio State offers fit and consultation. Perhaps your local or state university offers a similar program?
Unca_Sam is offline  
Old 09-14-19, 12:54 PM
  #18  
SactoDoug
eMail Sold to Spammers
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 13 Posts
Another vote that you need to try a recumbent bike. You already had problems with getting a saddle and fit that works for you. Now you have hip problems from accidents. You can keep trying to make a regular bike work for you or you can do something different that is proven to be easier on the body. If you decide to keep trying a diamond frame, I would advise that you put some kind of a time limit on it that will mean it is time to try something different. Do you want to be back here in five years making the same post that nothing is working for you?
SactoDoug is offline  
Old 09-14-19, 01:07 PM
  #19  
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,358
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
Liked 238 Times in 185 Posts
Tough problem. Saddle comfort is so incredibly subjective, and what works on many people often won't work out the same way for another person.

I'm in the same boat.

Old injures from back in the day mean I'm relegated to vastly-reduced leg strength on one side, such that the normal and customary pedaling "pressure" that helps keep the upper body erect simply won't (ever) work that way again with me. So I'm forced to be in a more-upright position that I've ever been, previously.

Of course, it's not like that speeds up the saddle selection or positioning problem.

About the best process I've found is: to get a decently supportive and generally comfortable saddle so that I can get in the more-or-less proper position for that frame (making corresponding changes to stem and/or bars as needed, of course); and then, choosing between saddles that are a bit different widths and support based on my sit bones and subjective minor comfort issues.

I'd suggest getting a sit-bones measurement done in a shop that knows how to do that effectively for saddle recommendations. Then, acquire a fairly supportive and decent saddle in that range. It'll still be somewhat of a guess, but a better one than winging it, I'd think. Be prepared to alter height, fore/aft tilt, along with the stem and bars. Depending.

In my case, I have such variable crummy leg strength that I still have, from time to time, uncomfortable numbness in my hands and occasional aches in my legs. Minor changes in saddle height, position and tilt help a bit. But as I age and my leg strength continues to deteriorate, I find that I'm preferring sitting more and more upright. A mid-width sprung Brooks will probably be my next foray into the comfort zone. I currently have a Selle SMP Martin, which is a tad wide and not shaped (in the curve) the way I generally like. So, we'll see.

Wish I had more. It's so subjective, that it's hard to nail a choice out of the gate.
Clyde1820 is offline  
Old 09-14-19, 07:07 PM
  #20  
400E
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Omaha
Posts: 42

Bikes: Surly Disc Trucker

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
In addition to the advice you've already got above about getting another bike fit done, if you are still thinking about a different saddle, I'd suggest checking out the Spongy Wonder. I got one several years ago after suffering with saddle pain and numbness for years. I'm 6'8" myself for what it's worth.

The Spongy Wonder has two separate "sit pads" and I believe they can be moved laterally if need be.
400E is offline  
Old 09-15-19, 03:22 AM
  #21  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,358

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3987 Post(s)
Liked 1,774 Times in 1,137 Posts
I can only offer my sympathy and encouragement. I've also been hit by cars twice, first in 2001 breaking six vertebrae in my neck and back. My C1 and C2 are permanently damaged. I walked with a cane until 2014, and resumed cycling again in 2015.

It took me about two years to recover some fitness after years of disability. Then I was hit again last year, breaking my shoulder and re-injuring my neck. Coincidentally, but unrelated, the doctor also discovered I had thyroid cancer during diagnostics to check my neck injuries. Those setbacks took another year to recover to my satisfaction.

Only during the past month have I finally improved on my fitness before last year's injury. I was never particularly fast but recently I've improved from my usual 16 mph average on familiar 20-40 mile routes to 18 mph on good days. That's a huge improvement for me, and usually occurs when I'm not really looking for any new personal best times. Maybe I'm more relaxed and breathing more naturally when I'm not trying too hard.

I found it very frustrating trying to get medical professionals to understand that I don't want to be in average health for an average 60something year old guy. I want better for myself. The first health care system I registered with assigned me to the geriatric unit. Not even kidding. I'm 60 and they designated me as geriatric. This was the clinic that took care of my 79 year old mom, with serious disabilities and Alzheimer's. I'm not ready for that. And the nurse practitioners and PA's treated me with that condescension that my mom doted on but which annoys the hell out of me. After a couple of months I switched to the VA and they've been terrific. The VA has made great progress and tries to accommodate veterans who set tougher goals for their personal health and fitness.

And I'm in constant pain, mostly the neck and shoulder, but occasionally aching in nearly every joint. I can cope with pain up to 5 on the usual 10 scale. I've had that chronic pain for so long it's just background noise now. It's annoying at 6 and beyond that I get really grumpy. I hate begging for prescription pain meds so I found some non-prescription stuff that works for me and doesn't make me groggy or interfere with my cycling and general fitness goals.

So I've done a ton of reading online for physical therapy techniques, fitness, cycling technique, nutrition and supplements. I always double and triple check claims for supplements against the research papers published on the PubMed site (and some of those are sketchy if they haven't been properly peer reviewed).

Anyway, I'm up early having coffee and getting ready for either a solo or club ride, depending on how I feel after a 30 minute warmup ride. The club usually goes 50-60 miles, with the B-group averaging 15 mph, the A-group 18 mph. On a really good day I can manage that for a 20-30 mile ride, but the neck pain will interfere after that. I don't do fast group rides when I can't keep my head up at all times -- too dangerous, and I'll get dropped if I can't grab a friendly wheel in front of me. But I can handle a more leisurely pace on my own or with the more relaxed group. I just wing it every ride, enjoy the good days and shrug off the less good days.

Best wishes. Be persistent in getting good medical and physical therapy and bike fit help. And in trying supplements to control chronic inflammation and pain. It may take longer than you'd like. I wouldn't have imagined it would take me so long to get back to a fitness level that I'm satisfied with. But it's been worth the effort.

Last edited by canklecat; 09-15-19 at 03:26 AM.
canklecat is online now  
Old 09-15-19, 12:20 PM
  #22  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,623

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3405 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times in 182 Posts
I'm tall too, and to be honest, us tall people suffer pain everywhere since the world is not designed for us. That said, it sounds like you need more physical therapy not saddle work. If the saddle won't fit you, you have to adapt to tolerate the saddle -- the same as we do for everything else.

Since you mentioned your age how's your test level? Low test levels can accelerate muscle and bone degeneration, so if its outside the normal range you may want to investigate treatment. You also didn't mention your weight/physical condition, so if you're over fat that will certainly add to you physical discomfort.
KraneXL is offline  
Old 09-15-19, 04:06 PM
  #23  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
If the saddle won't fit you, you have to adapt to tolerate the saddle -- the same as we do for everything else.
Ummmmmm...............................no.
sumgy is offline  
Old 09-16-19, 08:37 AM
  #24  
Wilfred Laurier
Seor Member
 
Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,050
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 633 Post(s)
Liked 276 Times in 201 Posts
Try to find a recumbent to try out. It may be better or it may not.

I also think others might be on to something when they talk about saddle height... could it be that your saddle height and crank length are working to put your hips into a range of motion they are not comfortable with?

I am 6'5" and have bought a few 180mm and 185mm cranksets, but the bike I am most comfortable cranking out the miles has a 170mm crankset.
Wilfred Laurier is offline  
Likes For Wilfred Laurier:
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
motorthings
Road Cycling
41
05-18-17 12:18 PM
Vinnems
Road Cycling
11
01-23-17 01:23 PM
Smokehouse
Road Cycling
25
07-01-13 07:07 AM
Bent Bill
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
11
03-19-12 08:15 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.