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Poll: ENVE says 60psi, Continental says 80-109psi. What to do...

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Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway
View Poll Results: What PSI would you run? ENVE says 60, Conti says 80-109. Details in first post.
60-64
5
17.86%
65-69
4
14.29%
70-74
5
17.86%
75-79
2
7.14%
80-84
3
10.71%
85-89
2
7.14%
90+
7
25.00%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

Poll: ENVE says 60psi, Continental says 80-109psi. What to do...

Old 10-06-19, 12:11 PM
  #1  
CarloM
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Poll: ENVE says 60psi, Continental says 80-109psi. What to do...

I know. "Test out the different PSIs and ride what feels best for you". That is exactly what I'm doing. Today's ride will be at 70psi. Rode it at 80 the other day. Later on will try 60. But I'm just curious what the rest of you err towards when the recommended psi by the wheel and tire manufacturers are so different.

For background, I've mounted 25c Continental GP5000 TLs on ENVE SES 5.6 wheels on my Cervelo S3. The Conti site for 25c GP5K TLs gives a range of 80-109psi. The ENVE website for the 5.6, with tubeless 25c tires, at my rider weight, gives a recommended pressure of 60psi with the caveat of:
Note: Tire pressures are intended as a starting recommendation based on the listed wheel being set up with tubeless tire. The pressure value is calculated considering a tubeless set up, intended road surface, rider's weight, average bike weight, inner rim width, and tire volume.
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Old 10-06-19, 12:16 PM
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65-70F. 70-75R. But tweak based on conditions and comfort needs.
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Old 10-06-19, 12:30 PM
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Throwing more info to the mix, this chart at bottom, from mavic suggests a max of 6.35 bar for a 20c rim (Enve SES5.6), which is about 92psi.

I assume since you're quoting Enve as recommending 60psi, that you are about 150lbs.

It's a conundrum when a tire maker says minimum safe inflation is one thing (80psi), and the rim maker says the max for any weight rider (250lbs on Enve site) can only be 80psi.

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Old 10-06-19, 12:47 PM
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Conti's minimum pressure recommendations have never made sense to me, so I cheerfully ignore them.
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Old 10-06-19, 01:53 PM
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Ride whatever pressure that floats your boat As long as your tire isn't underinflated to a point where it'll pinch the rim if you roll over a bump or something... Keep mind that there is an optimized pressure to reduce rolling resistance as well. You just need to find out which one!
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Old 10-06-19, 01:59 PM
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No way I'd run 60. That's crazy low.

At 165 lbs, I run a minimum of 90psi for 25s, but I've also pinch flatted numerous times in important situations under 90 psi, so others may have differing experiences. But even with tubeless, I don't go below that as I hate the mushy feeling when standing.
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Old 10-06-19, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Ride whatever pressure that floats your boat As long as your tire isn't underinflated to a point where it'll pinch the rim if you roll over a bump or something... Keep mind that there is an optimized pressure to reduce rolling resistance as well. You just need to find out which one!
Iím definitely trying to find that balance of low RR and comfort. On my TCR I run 28c 5K TL at 70 and find that to be my personal sweet spot. Yes if I went higher Iíd decrease RR but then the comfort on badly paved roads (which is 95% of where I ride) starts to suffer. But thatís a 28c vs the 25c on my S3 which is the largest that frame will accept. Iím at the halfway point of my daily ride (aka Blue Bottle Coffee) and all far Iím really liking the 25c ENVE 70psi combo. Significantly more comfortable than the 80psi I ran the other day but still feels fast. Iíll experiment with maybe 65 in a day or two but 70 may be the sweet spot. Which would make it easy for me to remember so I can run either bike at the same pressure.
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Old 10-06-19, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Ride whatever pressure that floats your boat As long as your tire isn't underinflated to a point where it'll pinch the rim if you roll over a bump or something... Keep mind that there is an optimized pressure to reduce rolling resistance as well. You just need to find out which one!
Well, at the point you'll either break a tube or crack a CF rim...
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Old 10-06-19, 03:14 PM
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I try to avoid pinch flats whenever I can.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:15 PM
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Speaking of manufacturer recommendations, itís interesting how Contiís lower psi recommendation for the 5K TL is 65psi for both 28c and 32c sizes but jumps up to 80psi for 25c.

The new 2020 Schwalbe Pro One TL Easy (the one with ďsouplesseĒ whatever that means but it is getting good early press) has a 70-110psi range for its 25c size. It drops down to 55-95 for 28c and 55-80 for 30c

I have greatly preferred the GP5K TL to any other tire Iíve ridden (Bontrager, Mavic Yksion UST, grand sport race). But Iím tempted to try out the new Pro Ones when they become more widely available and come down from their $81 per tire price. Seems theyíre too new for anyone to mark them down just yet. I pay about $55 per tire for the 5K TL and thatís about right in my view for the price/performance ratio.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
I try to avoid pinch flats whenever I can.
For those responding to the poll, keep in mind Iím asking about tubeless psi.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CarloM View Post
Speaking of manufacturer recommendations, itís interesting how Contiís lower psi recommendation for the 5K TL is 65psi for both 28c and 32c sizes but jumps up to 80psi for 25c.

The new 2020 Schwalbe Pro One TL Easy (the one with ďsouplesseĒ whatever that means but it is getting good early press) has a 70-110psi range for its 25c size. It drops down to 55-95 for 28c and 55-80 for 30c

I have greatly preferred the GP5K TL to any other tire Iíve ridden (Bontrager, Mavic Yksion UST, grand sport race). But Iím tempted to try out the new Pro Ones when they become more widely available and come down from their $81 per tire price. Seems theyíre too new for anyone to mark them down just yet. I pay about $55 per tire for the 5K TL and thatís about right in my view for the price/performance ratio.
Keep in mind that the Schwalbes are now being spec'd with a 19mm internal rim width in mind, whereas the Conti are... well, I don't know. But that internal width changes the internal volume which is going to affect the recommended pressure ranges. The fact that your rims are even wider shifts the lower end even more.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:42 PM
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See this thread from earlier this year.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...a-dispute.html

I think an issue with at least some of the Enve rims is that they are wide rims, and are designed for use with wide, low pressure tires.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bpcyclist View Post
I try to avoid pinch flats whenever I can.
Originally Posted by CarloM View Post
For those responding to the poll, keep in mind Iím asking about tubeless psi.
IKR

Say what you will about the downsides of tubeless, but give the devil his due. Pinch flats donít happen with them.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CarloM View Post
For those responding to the poll, keep in mind Iím asking about tubeless psi.
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
IKR

Say what you will about the downsides of tubeless, but give the devil his due. Pinch flats donít happen with them.
The end of my experiment with Schwalbe One tires was when I hit a rock on the road which tore a chunk of the tread/sidewall out, and didn't seal.

Not that big of a rock either, but probably rather sharp.

I have wondered if I had let the pressure get too low, and it did, in fact bottom out when I hit the rock causing damage that would not have occurred if I had the pressure higher.
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Old 10-06-19, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
See this thread from earlier this year.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...a-dispute.html

I think an issue with at least some of the Enve rims is that they are wide rims, and are designed for use with wide, low pressure tires.
Not sure in this context a wide tire is, but per Enve, these 20mm internal-width rims are "optimized for 25mm tires"

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Old 10-06-19, 04:09 PM
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The ENVEs are optimized for 25c and that's the largest I will mount on them for the foreseeable future for one simple reason: 25c is the widest the S3 will safely accommodate per ISO safety rule of 4mm clearance on each side. And the 25c need to measure pretty close to it to maintain that clearance. Currently my 25c 5K TL measure 25.93 and that leaves about 4mm clearance on one side of the chainstay and about 3.8mm clearance on the other side. If I buy and mount the 25c Pro Ones and they measure large, like 27mm, I'll really be cutting it too close for comfort. However if the new Schwalbes are spec'd for 19mm rims, then hopefully they won't expand too much on a 20mm internal rim width wheel.

Just returned from 20+ miles with the 5K TLs at 70psi...I think I'll keep them there. They're comfortable enough when I roll on bad roads, so I don't feel the need to dip down into the 60s. Might experiment going slightly higher next ride, maybe 75, to see if I gain a little bit in reduced RR without giving up too much comfort.
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Old 10-06-19, 04:47 PM
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Wait... how heavy are you, OP? 150lbs?
If you have the cojones for it, you can run your tires very, very low. I weigh between 135 and 145 (read: I am fat for now). I use 25mm tires on an ultra wide 23mm rim. With a super supple tires, I run less than 50psi front and 55 psi rear. If I donít care too much about responsiveness, Iíll go 45psi F and 50R. Itís spooky when I hit potholes or whatever, so I wouldnít recommend this to anyone in a truly crappy area... but you definitely have room to experiment with. Personally, I think 60F/70R is practically rock hard. Iíve gone as low as 35 psi front (rainy super technical crit. 9 people crashed in a field of ~25. I did not) with no adverse effects.

Jan Heine wrote an article at some point that the ďgoldilocksĒ zone that everyone really likes for their tires is actually the slowest because it doesnít let you float over rough tarmac as with ultra-low pressures, nor do the tires absorb little energy like with rock hard pressures. Try to think to yourself ďsmoother is fasterĒ and see how low you can go. Bonus if you have a power meter and a calm, flat section of road.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:09 PM
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Why does it seem a bit funny to me to invest in $2500 wheelsets, and then to need to run your nice tires at inflation pressures resembling molasses?

Has there been an updated "15% deflection" or whatnot study using tubeless. Enve says 63psi is optimal for a 150lb rider and 23mm tire running tubeless on asphalt. That just seems kinda weird to me.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:17 PM
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Didn't appreciate the discussion was about tubeless--duh.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Why does it seem a bit funny to me to invest in $2500 wheelsets, and then to need to run your nice tires at inflation pressures resembling molasses?

Has there been an updated "15% deflection" or whatnot study using tubeless. Enve says 63psi is optimal for a 150lb rider and 23mm tire running tubeless on asphalt. That just seems kinda weird to me.
Acktchooally, running your tires ďlike molassesĒ exploits your high end tires more than running them super high. If you were to try out a 25mm vittoria corsa and Gatorskin at 130psi, youíd be a bit hard pressed to tell the difference. Try it again at 45 psi and youíll notice immediately which one is better.

Nicer tires are nicer regardless of what pressure you run them at, but they broaden the gap when run low.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:20 PM
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Even though you can't pinch flat a tubeless tyre when you bottom it out, you are still increasing the risk of damaging your expensive rims.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
IKR

Say what you will about the downsides of tubeless, but give the devil his due.Pinch flats don’t happen with them.
Correct...instead of ruining a $5 inner tube...you bottom out and bend or break a rim that costs $100-1,000USD retail plus cost of rebuilding the wheel. Great economy.
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Old 10-06-19, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Even though you can't pinch flat a tubeless tyre when you bottom it out, you are still increasing the risk of damaging your expensive rims.
since Enve was part of the discussion.. I presume running too low in your road tires, the same could happen?

https://www.enve.com/en/journal/pinc...mate-buzzkill/
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Old 10-06-19, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
IKR

Say what you will about the downsides of tubeless, but give the devil his due. Pinch flats donít happen with them.
I've pinch flatted two tubeless road tires. It sucks more than tubed tires because pinch flatting a tubeless tire is a terminal event for that tire. Lower pressures + wider rims = much higher propensity to pinch flat regardless of what's inside the tire.
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