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Post-Fit Fore/Aft Advice

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Post-Fit Fore/Aft Advice

Old 01-30-19, 09:56 AM
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bobin
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Post-Fit Fore/Aft Advice

Long story - had a fit and the guy dramatically changed my position. Unfortunately he was a cranky guy and after I kept questioning his fit he broke up with me. I went to him seeking help with ankle/knee pain and those things have been resolved but my bum now hurts after about an hour.
I'm 6'7" with a 35" inseam on a 64cm Soma ES. [Top Tube 608, SeatTube Angle 72.5] The fitter told me that I had been riding way too far forward for too long.

He said my posterior chain wasn't good and that my glutes and hams were way weak. So he put a Thompson setback seat post on there and moved my saddle back almost as far as it would go. He brought the stem back and up to get into bit more of an upright position. We got road shoes/cleats and moved the cleat position back as far as it would go while at the same time going down from 175 to 172.5.

I'm starting to get a little more comfy after three months of not digging it at all. I'm assuming that your neuro-muscular system needs time to get used to a position? Cause I really struggled at first and the fitter turned out to be a super frustrated guy when I tried to question him on the whys of stuff. I never had a problem before with my butt/sit bones. I'm assuming because my stem and bars were down more a bit?


Once you guys get a fit, what's your process then for dialing it on your own? Also - what's the best saddle for-aft advice out there?
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Old 01-30-19, 10:10 AM
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Honestly, Rube touched upon it in another thread. No right or wrong...maybe at the margins when it comes to fit. Let's take Boonen who is even shorter than you..or big George Hincappie...both smaller than you...they each ride pretty massive setback. But others your size may not.

If you want more credible feedback on setback, you can drop a plumb bob off the front of your saddle. I would say a good range for a guy your size is 90-110mm setback from saddle tip to BB center horizontally.

Fit is really a work in progress. My suggestion is...don't fall in love with it...borrow it...and try 'every permutation' under the sun. There are no shortcuts to getting good at anything. A labor of love really if you want it bad enough. Every handlebar height. Every handlebar reach position. Every saddle setback...forward to back. I personally have ridden everything and have settled on pretty much middle of the road settings for my body size and flexibility or lack thereof.

One important tenant is...if you are in pain, stop. Overuse injury will keep you off the bike and hamper your daily living.

I would say most of us into cycling never stop searching for the holy grail of fit but over the years we settle on what we prefer.

Good luck in your search. As Rube said, go to 3 fitters you will come out with three fits.

Here is perhaps the greatest article penned on setback I have ever read...written by Steve Hogg. Mr. Hogg is a very smart guy and has figured out how different body types correlate to different positions on the bike fore/aft. Worth a read. A tip is...to really digest it...because first read is difficult. Read it 3 x's and then it will sink in. Brilliant really.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...or-road-bikes/

Last edited by Campag4life; 01-30-19 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 01-30-19, 10:22 AM
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First, rules of thumb are, at best, starting points. I only got my saddle fore/aft fit right after I left the "rules of thumb" alone and used a practical approach.

My fore/aft fitting boils down to . . . put the saddle at the spot where it is easy to go from being fully upright on the saddle to a position with your hands on the hoods. And vice versa. In other words, going to the bars, or sitting up from the bars, is a "neutral" act that requires no hand/arm assistance (and no intentional core strain) at all. It's a neutral movement. And the saddle is far enough back for easy balance with no hands -- hips are enough behind the bottom bracket so that the body balances on that point. (This required me to move my saddle somewhat back from where I had it for decades previously.)

Once I moved my saddle to that position (several years ago), all my knee, hip, back, arm, other issues went away.
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Old 01-30-19, 11:34 AM
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I would tinker- try different saddle fore/aft positions.

The saddle that worked in the previous position might not be so good now. Small tilt adjustments can make a big difference too.

IMO, there tends to be certain pelvis tilt or tilts that work for saddle pressure, power generation, and sustainable riding position- somewhat depending on the saddle.

Your size would put you on the edge of most fitters' experience- perhaps compare notes with other tall riders.
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Old 01-30-19, 11:55 AM
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^^^ beautifully explained
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Old 01-30-19, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
First, rules of thumb are, at best, starting points. I only got my saddle fore/aft fit right after I left the "rules of thumb" alone and used a practical approach.

My fore/aft fitting boils down to . . . put the saddle at the spot where it is easy to go from being fully upright on the saddle to a position with your hands on the hoods. And vice versa. In other words, going to the bars, or sitting up from the bars, is a "neutral" act that requires no hand/arm assistance (and no intentional core strain) at all. It's a neutral movement. And the saddle is far enough back for easy balance with no hands -- hips are enough behind the bottom bracket so that the body balances on that point. (This required me to move my saddle somewhat back from where I had it for decades previously.)

Once I moved my saddle to that position (several years ago), all my knee, hip, back, arm, other issues went away.
Exactly my experience.
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Old 01-30-19, 03:26 PM
  #7  
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Since you went to your fitter to have the knee/ankle pain alleviated and he did that, I am going to assume you went to a good fitter with a difficult personality but he/she knows what they are doing. My first thought upon reading your post was that you may need to adapt to the new position. It sounds like for the most part your position went back and up. As such, this will change your weight distribution on the bike. Your new more upright position transfers weight from your hands to your sit bones and you are now sitting differently on the saddle or possibly even on a new point on the saddle.

I have had several bike fits and have my position duplicated on all my bikes (10) so I know they all fit properly, however after not riding consistently for 15 months I returned to riding and my butt hurt! I typically ride 5k miles per year, centuries and my butt hurt! I did not change a thing. Took about 3 weeks of riding consistently or really just getting in the saddle for at least 30 minutes for me to feel like my old self again. So not unusual at all to have some soreness after a position change.

One caveat to my post is that I am talking sitbone pain, not pain or numbness in the soft tissue areas.

Finally you you may want to look at different saddles. Some saddles are designed for different positions. You also do not say the length of your typical ride but in general the longer the ride the firmer the saddle. A soft saddle with a lot of padding feels great at first, however as the longer you sit on it or more weight placed on it via your more upright posture, the padding collapses and begins to cutoff blood circulation leading to numbness/pain.

My guess is that you just need a bit of saddle time to get your body used to the pressure of more weight on the saddle vs hands.

Another thing I forgot to mention previously is saddle width. The more upright position often requires a bit of a wider saddle. You can go to a bike shop and have it measured or DIY by getting some paper or cardboard and getting your rear end damp and sitting on the paper. You will see a print of your sit bones, measure the distance center to center and that will give you a measurement to use to help you select a saddle width. Too narrow of a saddle will typically put too much pressure on the sit bones, too wide on soft tissue.



Last edited by Carverbiker; 01-30-19 at 08:53 PM. Reason: To add
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Old 01-30-19, 05:56 PM
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The whole point is to balance your body weight between hand pedal and saddle. Assuming the saddle height is correct, start with the saddle at the middle of the rail, slowly move the saddle back until you can pedal with your hands off without falling forward or speeding up cadence. The benefit of forward saddle is more power on the down stroke as your body weight is closer to the BB, however you might get sore hands and shoulder as they have to support more body weight. This is the reason you see a lot of climbers with saddle more forward, but again they weight around 130lb and can push 6kg/w. For us amateurs it is often better with saddle more backward, we weight more and cannot push those high watts for an extended period of time so you want most of your weights on the saddle.
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Old 01-30-19, 09:44 PM
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I'm 6'4" with a 36" cycling inseam and I ride a 61cm frame. I'm a believer in Greg Lemond's saddle height formula of inseam x .883. This will get you close. I'm at exactly 80cm for saddle height. I ride a short-nosed saddle Pro Stealth. My setback is 110cm from the bb. I got frustrated with the balance test because I thought my balance was about the same regardless of how far I had my seat forward or back. Here is a good video on setting the fore/aft.

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Old 01-31-19, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sojodave
I'm 6'4" with a 36" cycling inseam and I ride a 61cm frame. I'm a believer in Greg Lemond's saddle height formula of inseam x .883. This will get you close. I'm at exactly 80cm for saddle height. I ride a short-nosed saddle Pro Stealth. My setback is 110cm from the bb. I got frustrated with the balance test because I thought my balance was about the same regardless of how far I had my seat forward or back. Here is a good video on setting the fore/aft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhWVZq2qUc
Balance test or method is often discussed and even brought up in Stegg Hogg's excellent article. Reality is...and Chi touched up this...varies by rider...even riders the same size.

Size, power and really riding objective of rider...tourer, endurance rider versus Crit racer. There is a reason that Specialized makes their purpose specific Crit bike, their Allez Sprint with more upright seat tube angle versus their other famous race bike the Tarmac with a seat tube angle more angled rearward to get the rider back a bit more. Same company, different geometry. Both race bikes.

As a general rule and to reinforce Chi's comments, a lighter, stronger more aggressive rider will prefer a more forward position....in general but no absolute for sure. Further a more forward position allows to get more aero because the pelvis is closer to the BB horizontally which allows more forward pelvis rotation. A TT bike is of course the ultimate manifestation of this dynamic but rider's torso is supported by the elbows for that reason...not really a sustainable position relying on the core or the hands to hold up the torso against a TT position.

I mention Sheldon Brown from time to time because I asked him a general rule about KOPS. He said its a bit of a flawed convention as most that are into bike fit know...but he said in general, racers want to be at KOPS a bit in front of it and more average riders, tourers, distance riders with reduced pedal forces and more upright position want to be a couple of cm's behind it. Of course being behind it typically means a more upright riding position because its harder to rotate the pelvis the farther behind the BB.

OP, hope that makes sense. Depends on your power to weight and how you ride...aggressive rider or more smell the flowers type of rider. Keep in mind, the harder you push on the pedals, the more the weight is reduced on your hands. This allows a more forward position on the bike which btw is conducive to more drop. Best riders I have ridden with where I can barely stay on their back wheel, they have very little weight on the saddle. A saddle is more of a perch to real fast guys...not a lazyboy.

Fit is a puzzle and the pieces do fit for each rider once the puzzle is solved which is the aggragate of many factors discussed. I can ride a wide variety of setback...way back to pretty well forward. I end up mostly in the middle of the rails with a 25 deg setback and 73 deg sta with 77cm saddle height. A common pro position in terms of setback...they all run more drop than me and some run less setback...varies by rider.

Another data point you guys may appreciate on the subject:
Here is a chart for setback from B. Hinault's book and was used by all of Guimard's riders (Hinault, LeMond and Fignon). Measurement is from the tip of the saddle nose to centre of BB measured horizontally.

Cycling Inseam versus Saddle Setback

75 to 78cm. 4 to 6cm.
79 to 82cm. 5 to 7cm.
83 to 86cm. 6 to 8cm.
87 to 90cm. 7 to 9cm.
My cycling inseam is 35.25” saddle height = 89.5 cm...so my sweet spot is ~9 cm +/- which works pretty well.

Last edited by Campag4life; 01-31-19 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 01-31-19, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sojodave
I'm 6'4" with a 36" cycling inseam and I ride a 61cm frame. I'm a believer in Greg Lemond's saddle height formula of inseam x .883. This will get you close. I'm at exactly 80cm for saddle height. I ride a short-nosed saddle Pro Stealth. My setback is 110cm from the bb. I got frustrated with the balance test because I thought my balance was about the same regardless of how far I had my seat forward or back. Here is a good video on setting the fore/aft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhWVZq2qUc
Lemond's formula doesn't work for me. To me, its a pretty flawed equation on many levels. Hip and hamstring flexibility...what Hogg calls 'functionality' or range of motion from rider to rider...crank length, pedal stroke style...toe point versus scrape the mud..a myriad of areas the formula breaks down. Big Lemond fan btw. Greatest American bike rider IMO.
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Old 01-31-19, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Another data point you guys may appreciate on the subject:
Here is a chart for setback from B. Hinault's book and was used by all of Guimard's riders (Hinault, LeMond and Fignon). Measurement is from the tip of the saddle nose to centre of BB measured horizontally.

Cycling Inseam versus Saddle Setback

75 to 78cm. 4 to 6cm.
79 to 82cm. 5 to 7cm.
83 to 86cm. 6 to 8cm.
87 to 90cm. 7 to 9cm.
My cycling inseam is 35.25” saddle height = 89.5 cm...so my sweet spot is ~9 cm +/- which works pretty well.
A couple things I'd question.. 1) wouldn't it make more sense for guidelines to be based more upon femur length instead of overall inseam? and 2) since most sitting isn't on the nose of the saddle, why isn't measurement based on distance to part of the saddle where the sitbones are going to be residing?
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Old 01-31-19, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
A couple things I'd question.. 1) wouldn't it make more sense for guidelines to be based more upon femur length instead of overall inseam? and 2) since most sitting isn't on the nose of the saddle, why isn't measurement based on distance to part of the saddle where the sitbones are going to be residing?
And saddles aren't the same length, front-to-back. So it's hard to be consistent by measuring the nose position.

Last edited by rm -rf; 01-31-19 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 01-31-19, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bobin
Long story - had a fit and the guy dramatically changed my position. Unfortunately he was a cranky guy and after I kept questioning his fit he broke up with me. I went to him seeking help with ankle/knee pain and those things have been resolved but my bum now hurts after about an hour.
I'm 6'7" with a 35" inseam on a 64cm Soma ES. [Top Tube 608, SeatTube Angle 72.5] The fitter told me that I had been riding way too far forward for too long.

He said my posterior chain wasn't good and that my glutes and hams were way weak. So he put a Thompson setback seat post on there and moved my saddle back almost as far as it would go. He brought the stem back and up to get into bit more of an upright position. We got road shoes/cleats and moved the cleat position back as far as it would go while at the same time going down from 175 to 172.5.

I'm starting to get a little more comfy after three months of not digging it at all. I'm assuming that your neuro-muscular system needs time to get used to a position? Cause I really struggled at first and the fitter turned out to be a super frustrated guy when I tried to question him on the whys of stuff. I never had a problem before with my butt/sit bones. I'm assuming because my stem and bars were down more a bit?


Once you guys get a fit, what's your process then for dialing it on your own? Also - what's the best saddle for-aft advice out there?
With regular riding, for example -- three rides a week, 6 hours or more a week, you should be adapting by now, after three months.

With saddle and bars working better, I now ride with a natural bend in my elbow. I used to ride with locked out, stiff elbows too often.

I have the bars set fairly high. Both the hoods and the drops are comfortable now. I probably ride 5% tops, 55% hoods, 40% drops.
Riding in the drops is very nice:
It's a little more aero, of course.
Better control on descents.
Much easier on my hands on rough pavement -- the force is spread out more. And I can soak up the bumps better too.
A different load on my butt and shoulders, the variation during the ride is helpful.
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Old 01-31-19, 09:07 AM
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Another seat height formula I've heard is your cycling inseam in mm x 109% minus your crank length. It positioned me a little high.
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Old 01-31-19, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
A couple things I'd question.. 1) wouldn't it make more sense for guidelines to be based more upon femur length instead of overall inseam? and 2) since most sitting isn't on the nose of the saddle, why isn't measurement based on distance to part of the saddle where the sitbones are going to be residing?
First answer is no. Same reason KOPS is a bit of a myth. Aggregate leg length more portents statistically overall body height. As Steve Hogg pointed out, torso projection is huge for amount of setback...effective torso length. Torso length can be 'loosely' correlated statistically to overall leg length and even less so to femur length.

Second answer is...convention. Yes saddle can vary in length...but many are in the 270mm range or so. Where a riders sits is variable as well relative to a given saddle design. Conventions are flawed of course and why to be used as general guidelines or moreover to be used as 'relative measures' specific to a 'given rider' and have less applicability to comparing other riders.
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Old 01-31-19, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf
With regular riding, for example -- three rides a week, 6 hours or more a week, you should be adapting by now, after three months.

With saddle and bars working better, I now ride with a natural bend in my elbow. I used to ride with locked out, stiff elbows too often.

I have the bars set fairly high. Both the hoods and the drops are comfortable now. I probably ride 5% tops, 55% hoods, 40% drops.
Riding in the drops is very nice:
It's a little more aero, of course.
Better control on descents.
Much easier on my hands on rough pavement -- the force is spread out more. And I can soak up the bumps better too.
A different load on my butt and shoulders, the variation during the ride is helpful.
I too opt for about the same ratio of tops, hoods to drops. A good combo.
But...and you likely know this...drops are not the most aero position for a better rider....hoods are with torso well leaned over. In the drops the forearms catch more air than folded arms at the elbows when on the hoods. Torso position rules in aerodynamics. I am quite sure you know this because there isn't much I have of yours where you have been wrong...ever.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:16 AM
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There's no consensus method to replace KOPS, bike fitters use to optimize with some home-grown method focusing on weight balance and power delivery. The methods used are probably good -- when supervised by the fitter that invented it and have used it over a long time on many individuals. They can be hard to replicate when making a fit for yourself. Balance tests are probably skewed if say you have above average core control, perhaps gained in some other sport, but not that much cycling power output. I also don't like it when a fitter says "the correct position" when it really is a fit window which for fore-aft adjustment is quite wide for many individuals and riding styles. There's generally too much angst about the fore-aft setting due to the lack of a widely accepted simple repeatable method at same time as some make it sound like there is one correct position.

When doing a fore-aft fit for yourself I'd recommend good old trial-and-error. I look both for power delivery, quads/hams get to work in balance (note: also affected by saddle height and back angle) and weight distribution balance, ie getting a suitable pressure on my hands in relation to bum. If you have average body proportions and a typical road bike geometry, KOPS is not that bad to establish a baseline to compare what is far forward and what is far backward, but otherwise I don't think formulas work, there are just too many variables. You could try some different settings on your trainer if you have one to get a feel what's right. I think it's quite easy to get a feel for the power delivery aspect on a trainer, but if it's going to be a long-term comfy fit is harder without testing it out on real rides, as how dynamic you are on the bike and power output etc will have an effect. I do find balance/core tests while pedaling like hovering your hands above the handlebar and sitting up straight useful as sanity checking, if you need to push yourself up, or you feel like you will tip over you have too long reach or saddle too far forward, but I personally don't find them very precise for fine-tuning. I also think they can be skewed a bit say if you have a nose down tilt on your saddle, that is I think there are occassions when you can "fail" the tests with a position that works, but I don't have that much experience in it so I can't say anything for sure about that. I can say that I more easily pass the tests on my cross and endurance bikes than on my race bike, as I sit more upright on the former, and I find it hard to say where the limit is, when there is too much core tension to hover the hands or to get up. "There should be very little tension" someone may say, and then you may end up with an unreasonably short reach and/or with the saddle way back, as we interpret "little tension" differently, so these balance tests are not that easy to execute with standardized precision.

For fine-tuning I try to think about how it has felt with the current setting and if it would be useful to transfer some weight to the hands or getting more back to the bum, and adjust accordingly and evalutate over a ride or two. If we can't swap out stem we change reach simultaneously and then the result can be a bit unpredictable, moving back the saddle lowers our back angle a little bit due to the increased reach so where the center of gravity ends up and how the pressure is finally distributed may not be that predictable, so try a few settings and feel what happens. You may end up doing a reach adjustment too.

Some think that pressure on your hands is reduced if you get a stronger core. However, the core will (and should) be as relaxed as possible, it will automatically tense up just so much to stabilize for the torque from pedaling. So high power output with low cadence (high torque) will lower pressure. I mention this to indicate that capacity and riding style will affect which fit you prefer, it's not just about body measurements. Some of the various balance tests try to capture this and does it to some extent, so I like the principle. They are just not that exact or easy to do without experienced supervision.

On the sit bone issue it could just be a saddle pressure distribution issue, which may be solved with slight tilt adjustment. But it could be something else. If it could be a weight balance issue if you feel that you have unnecessarily low pressure on the hands, usually casued by a saddle far back and a short reach to the handlebar. The total pressure is shared between feet bum and hands, it must go somewhere. I have personally had quite big saddle comfort issues, some of us are more sensitive than others. In my case it was about finding the exact right tilt, and find a saddle (+bib) that worked. Almost any type of saddle give me perineum issues. I ended up with Selle Italia SuperFlow SLR which has one of the most extreme cutouts. That solved perineum issue but did increase pressure on the sides instead which gave me some issues, which went away by just riding more and making the body more used to the pressure. Today I would recommend anyone with saddle issues to try out one of the new shortfit saddles which seems to work for many, going for a wider flatter saddle than the theory recommends may also be a good idea, depending on your power output. The higher power output the lower saddle pressure.

Last edited by torger; 01-31-19 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:32 AM
  #19  
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KISS. You raise the bars you get more weight on the saddle and the saddle angle changes. Work the problem, if you change everything you will chase your tail forever.
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Old 02-01-19, 01:32 AM
  #20  
canklecat
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Originally Posted by bobin
Once you guys get a fit, what's your process then for dialing it on your own? Also - what's the best saddle for-aft advice out there?
Depends on my current flexibility. This time last year, January-springtime 2018, I had my bike fit dialed in. Saddle I liked (Selle Italia SLS Kit Carbonio, bargain version of their typical road bike saddle, flat, narrow, long nose, minimal padding, but suits me). Shorter stem, from 130mm to 90mm.

Took awhile to get there. I'd only resumed cycling in 2015 after 30+ years away. In 2001 a full sized SUV t-boned my compact car wreck and fractured six vertebrae from my C2 to lumbar region. I walked with a cane until 2014. So it took awhile after getting back on the bike to regain aerobic fitness, strength and flexibility.

I watched a lot of video tutorials, scrapped everything I thought I knew from the 1970s from coaches and bike shop managers, and in general the contemporary bike fit advice seemed sound. Seemed to work for me.

Then in May, while riding my bike, I was hit by a car. Yeah, again. Grade 4 shoulder separation, broken coracoid process (small bone that stabilizes the shoulder). I mostly used the indoor trainer last summer and resumed outdoor riding in earnest in the autumn after regaining some -- not all -- flexibility.

Then I had surgery for thyroid cancer in November, which set me back a bit more. Shoulder rehab seemed to have stalled. Neck was hurting again. The knees weren't happy with any position, and my knees rarely bother me -- even at 61 and after many injuries, my knees have been pretty good. But they were twinging during and after most rides now.

Then I had a respiratory inflammation that kept me off the bike most of December and this month.

By late January 2019 everything felt wrong on the bike. My body felt stiff and sore most days. Lots of muscle spasms in the middle of the night. My pedaling felt glitchy, hitchy, not smooth. I worked more on flexibility, especially the glutes, hips, adductors, etc.

Usually when that happens I'll video myself on the trainer, and sometimes during outdoor rides too -- I'll set the camera on the roadside, on a bridge, any handy surface, and ride by a few times. Sometimes it helps reveal little things, like the saddle position being less than idea. Sometimes it just reveals I'm stiff and need to work more on flexibility. Sometimes I'm about as flexible as I'm gonna get for now and I need to adjust the bike to adapt to me.

At this point I just decided to heck with minor adjustments. No more 1//8" here, 1/4" there.

I'm riding an old school steel road bike, an '89 Centurion Ironman 56cm, so I watched many videos of pro riders my size (I'm 5'11", 150-155 lbs recently, down from 165 this time last year). I compared saddle heights and fore-aft position (as much as possible considering the saddles were often not completely visible), leg extension, knee angle, where the riders usually sat on the saddle, etc.

Sometimes that helped. Sometimes not. I'm not in my 20-30s and I doubt those guys would ride bikes the same in their 60s and older. But it was a rough guideline.

I decided to switch gearing to encourage more spinning, less mashing. I swapped in 50/39 chainrings in place of the 52/42, and a 13-25 freewheel in place of the original 13-24. Helps a bit.

I tried a new saddle, a Selle Italia Q-Bik. Looks superficially similar to the SLS Kit Carbonio, but it's very different. More flexible shell, thicker padding, more curved, wider in the back. Rather than the cutout providing relief from perineum pressure it seemed to cause more. The Q-Bik works better on my hybrid with a more upright position. So I put the SLS Kit Carbonio back on (good grief, Selle Italia has some goofy names for saddles).

After watching several videos of Jacques Anquetil I realized one possible reason for his noted and much discussion toe-down pedaling style. He was 5'9" or 5'9 1/2", depending on the source, but mostly rode what appeared to be 56cm frames. Those might be considered marginally too big for him, depending on personal preferences. He seemed to prefer being more stretched out, but without a lot of handlebar drop -- his saddle height wasn't much higher than the handlebar. His bar was titled back slightly, raising the hoods a bit, with the brake levers slightly angled outward, drops no longer parallel with the ground (heck, I've already been doing that for a year). He also tended to sit on the nose of the saddle, at least on flats and time trials. And while claims vary, some of the more credible sources quoting Anquetil's acquaintances said he experimented with unusually long crank arms, sometimes in the 180s-190mm length. Dunno where anyone would get such a thing. The longest crank arms I have are 175mm, on my old Univega hybrid. Still other reports claimed he rode 165mm crank arms. Maybe he tried 'em all, so maybe all reports are correct, within the context of that particular photo or film.

The unusually long crank arms, slightly larger frame, and perhaps seat post elevation, all could combine to explain why he developed the toe-down pedaling style. At full extension his knee would be hyperextended unless he angled his toes downward. The saddle-forward position would help with this. And the unusually long crank arms would explain why in some photos and videos his knee at the top of the stroke appeared to be nearly horizontal alongside the top tube. (These all varied in some photos and videos, so he may have experimented with bike fit over the years, or to suit certain races.)

I figured, what the heck. I wanted to try some major revisions, not piddling 1/8" tweaks. Might as well while nothing seems to fit right on the bike.

So I raised the seat post a full inch from the position I'd used for a year. I moved the saddle fully forward on the rails -- it's an old style setback post, so this wasn't as extreme as it would be with a zero setback post. So far I've used it only on the indoor trainer in that position and it wasn't bad, although I had to consciously pedal toe-down to avoid hyper-extending my knee. In a video over 30 minutes the position didn't appear unusual at all, even compared with my previous fit. At worst my pedaling was a bit stiff for the first 15 minutes or so until I warmed up.

Unfortunately that pesky respiratory inflammation has kept me indoors all week -- I'm avoiding riding outdoors in cold dry air for now. But this weekend should be warmer and more humid. So I'll see how it goes on a couple of test rides.

I'm expecting to need to make a couple more adjustments.

For one, I'll probably need to raise the stem. I usually prefer a modest 2" drop below saddle height. It's about 3" or more now. We'll see how it goes.

For another, with the raised saddle I'll probably be sitting more heavily in the saddle until I adapt to the position. So I'll need to use my thickest padded shorts (Przewalksi shorts have the thickest and densest padding I've tried, very smooth with golf ball type dimples, a bit unusual at first but quite comfortable.)

I suspect that as my health, flexibility and conditioning improve I'll go back to a more conventional it. But this should be interesting to try for a few weeks.

Anyway, pardon the rambling. It just seemed like a good opportunity to reboot my notions of bike fit and try something else. For now. Subject to change at whim, or when the body recovers.
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Old 02-01-19, 06:11 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by canklecat
I had to consciously pedal toe-down to avoid hyper-extending my knee
it is always better to have the saddle little too low than too high. Having saddle that high to the point of hyper extending your knee will cause you to slowly move forward to the pointy parts of the saddle where your pelvis will not be properly supported. Also it takes a few rides for body to adjust after long time off cycling, if the fit was working fine before, I would ride through the soreness for a little bit before drastically changing your position. I remember after 6 month off the the bike, on the first ride, I could not sit on the saddle for more than 20 minutes, had to stand for the rest of the ride. Disclaimer, I did not have the injuries that you had, just extra 20lbs .
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Old 02-01-19, 08:56 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Chi_Z
it is always better to have the saddle little too low than too high. Having saddle that high to the point of hyper extending your knee will cause you to slowly move forward to the pointy parts of the saddle where your pelvis will not be properly supported. Also it takes a few rides for body to adjust after long time off cycling, if the fit was working fine before, I would ride through the soreness for a little bit before drastically changing your position. I remember after 6 month off the the bike, on the first ride, I could not sit on the saddle for more than 20 minutes, had to stand for the rest of the ride. Disclaimer, I did not have the injuries that you had, just extra 20lbs .
Yeah, I'll see how it goes after a road ride this weekend. Or this weakened -- still not fully recovered from the thyroid thing. Some days are better than others.

Actually I've spent quite a bit of time in the saddle, just mostly on the trainer with one or two 20-30 mile rides a week outside. Not the same. Good for aerobic conditioning, pretty much everything except balance, handling and optimal saddle fit over rough pavement. That's where less that optimal saddle fit is exposed.

Won't hurt to try. I can change it back during a ride if needed. I marked the original positions.

Gotta admit, mostly I'm curious to find out how Jacques Anquetil did it. Probably won't be possible to settle that question.
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Old 02-03-19, 01:16 AM
  #23  
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A 28 mile rides Saturday and Sunday were promising for the fit adjustments I've made recently. My fastest times on a familiar route, by a small margin, since before my surgery in November. Not fast. Just fast for me. And I didn't feel particularly strong. My legs were rubbery afterward. So I'm inclined to credit a more efficient setup.

Rather than feeling hyper-extended, the one-inch seat post elevation increase encouraged me to spin more smoothly. I couldn't mash flat-footed without rocking, which is a good physical cue to spin. And my quads weren't cooked after every climb, seated or standing. No knee twinges. I did need to consciously remind myself to spin smoothly, not mash and hoist my knees upward, but after a warmup it came more naturally. I was a bit worried about the tendons behind the knee but they're fine. I'll just keep working on stretching and flexibility exercises.

I tilted the nose up a click before the ride, to get the saddle closer to flat with my full weight on it. No problems with bouncing forward or needing shift my weight around during the ride. There was some perineum pressure discomfort for a few miles but that cleared up after 20-30 minutes without numbness, so no circulation problems. But I'll need a longer ride to be sure. Might be appropriate to finally consider a saddle with pressure relief cutout.

The handlebar height may need to come up just a bit, but I'll try it awhile first. It's about 3" below saddle height now, lower than I'd usually ride. Felt okay on the hoods and bar top, no worse than usual in the drops -- I can handle the drops for only 3-5 minutes at a time, mostly for fast downhills or occasionally for climbs into headwinds.

Considering the anecdotes about Merckx often reworking his bike fit after his 1969 crash injury (including at least one film of him adjusting his saddle height during a ride), and confirmed reports of Froome often adjusting his fit, I'm inclined to regard bike fit as a suggestion, subject to the whims of our bodies. But the basics are helpful -- heel to pedal as a starting point, being able to lean forward to the handlebar and back while pedaling, etc.



Feels okay... for now. Monstercat approves.

Last edited by canklecat; 02-03-19 at 07:37 PM. Reason: add photo
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