Is seamed tubing tubing all that bad?
05-28-20, 10:04 PM
#51
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Mad Honk , it sounds like you're saying all tubes start as flat sheets welded together to form a tube. To obtain a "seamless" tube it simply needs more processing. Is this correct or an oversimplification?
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05-28-20, 10:13 PM
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Seamless bicycle tubing is manufactured from a very thick billet of solid steel. The billet is heated to a very high temperature, then pierced to become a thick walled hollow cylinder. It is then progressively hot rolled and cold drawn to reduce the diameter and wall thickness to the final dimensions. If required, it will go through butting operations prior to final sizing.
05-28-20, 10:35 PM
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i have a falcon with similar dropouts except it has a derailleur hanger. When i got it it had a 26.6 seatpost in it. I have been under the impression it was probably straight guage reynolds. Who knows, it does ride beautifully.
05-28-20, 10:42 PM
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https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ur-falcon.html
05-28-20, 11:30 PM
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Thanks for posting the video Salamandrine . This is a good overview of steel tube making. It also includes some excellent videotography. Steel making with the flames, sparks and glowing bars is visually mesmerizing.
I stayed at a Best Western hotel in Anaheim, CA a few times. I usually got a room that overlooks the hammer mill where they shred cars, trucks and everything else steel. Maybe some lower end bikes too. It is a yard with piles of cast off cars and steel junk a big crane and this big convoluted steel encased tower with the hammer mill on top and a tilted gangplank that haul the unwanted vehicles upward to their demise.
It would not be considered pretty. Most guest would think that they got the worst view. Maybe ask the front desk for another room with a better view. For me, it was entertaining.
I also read the book American Steel about Nucor a few decades ago. For me, it was a good read. Really interesting. Maybe I should read it again.
I stayed at a Best Western hotel in Anaheim, CA a few times. I usually got a room that overlooks the hammer mill where they shred cars, trucks and everything else steel. Maybe some lower end bikes too. It is a yard with piles of cast off cars and steel junk a big crane and this big convoluted steel encased tower with the hammer mill on top and a tilted gangplank that haul the unwanted vehicles upward to their demise.
It would not be considered pretty. Most guest would think that they got the worst view. Maybe ask the front desk for another room with a better view. For me, it was entertaining.
I also read the book American Steel about Nucor a few decades ago. For me, it was a good read. Really interesting. Maybe I should read it again.
05-29-20, 06:13 AM
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My other Falcon has 26.6mm seat post as well. It's shown in this thread...
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ur-falcon.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ur-falcon.html
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05-29-20, 09:31 AM
#57
Strong Walker
I just cut up my old Windsor frame. I cannot remember which model it was. Not the base International, but not too far up the line either. It had straight gauage tubing with a seam in it. I believe, but have no way of confirming that it was high tensile steel.
I was looking at a cross section of the down tube and wondering how bad is seamed tubing? Or how much better is seamless tubing?
Looking at the cross section, the seamed weld is clean and even. The whole point of welded tube is melt the steel on either side of the joint to turn it into one piece. I do acknowledge that there some subtle differences in the weld area, but how much. Would you really notice this difference if you were able to ride two bikes that were the same with the exception that one had seamless tubing and one did not?
You might notice that this cross section sample was taken from the damaged part of the tube. I filed it to clean up the burr, however, in doing so, I also filed a little bit of the seam.
I was looking at a cross section of the down tube and wondering how bad is seamed tubing? Or how much better is seamless tubing?
Looking at the cross section, the seamed weld is clean and even. The whole point of welded tube is melt the steel on either side of the joint to turn it into one piece. I do acknowledge that there some subtle differences in the weld area, but how much. Would you really notice this difference if you were able to ride two bikes that were the same with the exception that one had seamless tubing and one did not?
You might notice that this cross section sample was taken from the damaged part of the tube. I filed it to clean up the burr, however, in doing so, I also filed a little bit of the seam.
The stuff on your pictures was chosen for cost saving.
As for Hi Ten, that is not a quality label. Hi Ten, in the old world known as St37 before ISO kicked in, is at the absolute low end of the steel food chain. Rebar material.
05-29-20, 06:32 PM
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T-Mar,and branko,
I would say that the current manufacturing of tubes, likely 98% is welded tubes. Cold drawing is expensive due to the more labor and heat intensive. And is only found in smoke-stack cities. I spent four years working for National Steel in Portage, IN , and the 2500* temperatures are no fun. After that I worked in the stack-able steel shelving bizniz and even the rail car floor building business. They were are fabrications of rolled or formed steel. My interactions with the folks at True Temper was that they created all tubes out of rolled an seamed tubes. In golf we use tubes that have to withstand the forces of impacts of 120 mph and they have wall thicknesses of about .015" in the tubes. They seem to handle the stress put on them reasonably well. The design engineers at TT have some folks who were also instrumental in the development of the tubes from Appollo in England. At this point most of tube manufacturing is being transferred off shore from Mississippi to China and Vietnam.
Unfortunately steel production is all being done in underdeveloped countries, for the most part. Space aged materials are going to be option going forward. I work on steel products only about 30% of the time as opposed to 70% space aged materials. I am not saying there were not a lot of C&V bikes that were made of cold drawn tubes but most newer tubed bikes likely have seamed tubing rolled into specifications. Again, Just my experience. Smiles, MH
Addendum: I checked and the last of the groups doing billet drawing was Apppollo and they closed in the early 1980's. So again I think any thing past that time was seamed and rolled. Smiles,MH
I would say that the current manufacturing of tubes, likely 98% is welded tubes. Cold drawing is expensive due to the more labor and heat intensive. And is only found in smoke-stack cities. I spent four years working for National Steel in Portage, IN , and the 2500* temperatures are no fun. After that I worked in the stack-able steel shelving bizniz and even the rail car floor building business. They were are fabrications of rolled or formed steel. My interactions with the folks at True Temper was that they created all tubes out of rolled an seamed tubes. In golf we use tubes that have to withstand the forces of impacts of 120 mph and they have wall thicknesses of about .015" in the tubes. They seem to handle the stress put on them reasonably well. The design engineers at TT have some folks who were also instrumental in the development of the tubes from Appollo in England. At this point most of tube manufacturing is being transferred off shore from Mississippi to China and Vietnam.
Unfortunately steel production is all being done in underdeveloped countries, for the most part. Space aged materials are going to be option going forward. I work on steel products only about 30% of the time as opposed to 70% space aged materials. I am not saying there were not a lot of C&V bikes that were made of cold drawn tubes but most newer tubed bikes likely have seamed tubing rolled into specifications. Again, Just my experience. Smiles, MH
Addendum: I checked and the last of the groups doing billet drawing was Apppollo and they closed in the early 1980's. So again I think any thing past that time was seamed and rolled. Smiles,MH
Last edited by Mad Honk; 05-31-20 at 05:25 PM.
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05-30-20, 02:58 AM
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I remember reading about a "blind test" where racers were given identical frames and groupsets to ride. The riders could NOT tell the difference as to whether a bicycle was seamed tubing (i.e. Tange Infinity) or seamless tubing (i.e. Columbus SL) until the frames were weighed. Tee ride felt IDENTICAL with both types of tubing.
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05-31-20, 12:49 PM
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05-31-20, 05:22 PM
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natterberry,
Covid 19 has me experiencing anti-social behavior, likely due to over doses of house arrest. I trust it will pass with some acceptance of re-integrating into society.HTH, MH
Covid 19 has me experiencing anti-social behavior, likely due to over doses of house arrest. I trust it will pass with some acceptance of re-integrating into society.HTH, MH
Last edited by Mad Honk; 05-31-20 at 05:26 PM.
