Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Group ride pacing

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Group ride pacing

Old 08-07-20, 01:24 PM
  #26  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
A stated pace is fine as far as it goes. However, my experience is that this falls apart if the routes are hilly, and combined with whether or not the leader of the ride is a rotated role. You can for example say that it's a 20mph ride, but is that on flat ground? Relative differing abilities in rolling terrain and various climbs. What's the agreed upon pace for 2%, 5% or 8% gradients? How often will you want to stop or slow to regroup, etc? Hard to get away from these issues with groups made up of individuals who don't know each other at all.
This might be too much information for some to absorb, but if you post it as a 20mph zone 2 or perceived effort or whatever is more understandable ride, that should give people enough information. Everybody usually knows whether they ride hills well or not. I always go down one level when there is going to be a lot of climbing because I am slow on long climbs.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 04:07 PM
  #27  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,198

Bikes: ...a few.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 231 Posts
Originally Posted by colnago62
This might be too much information for some to absorb, but if you post it as a 20mph zone 2 or perceived effort or whatever is more understandable ride, that should give people enough information. Everybody usually knows whether they ride hills well or not. I always go down one level when there is going to be a lot of climbing because I am slow on long climbs.
One of our stronger riders always posts using this kind of designation. Problem is that his zone 2 is zone 3 for a lot of people, and even zone 4. And his zones have changed in the last few months as he's gotten stronger.
mcours2006 is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 04:22 PM
  #28  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by mcours2006
One of our stronger riders always posts using this kind of designation. Problem is that his zone 2 is zone 3 for a lot of people, and even zone 4. And his zones have changed in the last few months as he's gotten stronger.
i'd hazard a guess that folks tripping thru facebook to find a group ride, don't even know what a zone is.
Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 08-07-20, 04:32 PM
  #29  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,198

Bikes: ...a few.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 231 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
i'd hazard a guess that folks tripping thru facebook to find a group ride, don't even know what a zone is.
No. We've had discussions about what a zone is. Most are quite knowledgeable about training. Knowing and doing are two different things, of course.
mcours2006 is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 04:37 PM
  #30  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by mcours2006
One of our stronger riders always posts using this kind of designation. Problem is that his zone 2 is zone 3 for a lot of people, and even zone 4. And his zones have changed in the last few months as he's gotten stronger.
Thats why you add the speed. If you know you are not in zone 2 at 20mph on flat ground, that ride is going to be too hard for you.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 04:43 PM
  #31  
caloso
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times in 1,417 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
A stated pace is fine as far as it goes. However, my experience is that this falls apart if the routes are hilly, and combined with whether or not the leader of the ride is a rotated role. You can for example say that it's a 20mph ride, but is that on flat ground? Relative differing abilities in rolling terrain and various climbs. What's the agreed upon pace for 2%, 5% or 8% gradients? How often will you want to stop or slow to regroup, etc? Hard to get away from these issues with groups made up of individuals who don't know each other at all.
I don't think it's that complicated. Say "We're going at a recovery pace. No more than X mph on the flats, same effort on the hills. Everyone try to stick together."
caloso is offline  
Likes For caloso:
Old 08-07-20, 08:40 PM
  #32  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times in 230 Posts
Originally Posted by caloso
I don't think it's that complicated. Say "We're going at a recovery pace. No more than X mph on the flats, same effort on the hills. Everyone try to stick together."
The first team I rode with, most rides were like that. We would ride out to a point somewhere. The coach would run us through team oriented intervals and then ride back at the prescribed pace.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 08:44 PM
  #33  
kgcabs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 6 Posts
a group and b group
kgcabs is offline  
Old 08-07-20, 11:20 PM
  #34  
Litespud
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by mcours2006
Just wanted to get some opinions here about organizing group rides.

So I'm part of a large group of riders, but we're not an official club. We organize rides on FB and group chat. The usual protocol is that someone will post a ride a day or two before. It's not necessarily the same person. So, let's say that someone posts a ride for an easy-paced recovery ride. During the ride the speed creeps up to where it's no longer easy. What do you do? Do you start yelling at folks? Do you, as the person who organized it, get to the front and slow things right down? We usually say, for example, easy pace xx kph average.

Some in the group are perfectly happy going at the higher pace. Others who signed up expecting an easy-paced ride are not so happy.

What say you?
We post rides based on our expectations of the average speed, so we'll have, for example, a B19 or B18 ride, but all the rides post an expected av speed.. The blurb that goes with the sign-up makes it clear that if you're going to blast off the front, find another ride. This way, if/when the ride leader yells at you, you've been warned - and you will get yelled at. It's worked out pretty well.
Litespud is offline  
Old 08-10-20, 11:49 AM
  #35  
dag086
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Go easy on the TV/Dorito guy.
dag086 is offline  
Old 08-10-20, 12:08 PM
  #36  
alias5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 558

Bikes: HP Velotechnik Streetmachine GTE, 2015 Devinci Silverstone SL4, 2012 Cannondale Road Tandem 2, Circe Morpheus, 2021 Rose Backroad, 2017 Devinci Hatchet

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 12 Posts
Lots of things have been said. It's also a bit about individual expectations, especially for the stronger riders. If the stronger riders want real exercise, they should consider splitting that component off from the ride.
When I go with slower friends, I consider it a social ride. No-drop. The goal is to keep everyone happy and that nobody feels like they are the hold-up for everyone else. If I cause someone to feel like they are the hold-up, I have failed at being a good group member and friend. To get good exercise for myself, I join other groups in addition to these rides or go solo.
alias5000 is offline  
Likes For alias5000:
Old 08-11-20, 02:51 PM
  #37  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,198

Bikes: ...a few.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 231 Posts
This past weekend we had a large turn out for a ride, like 20+ riders. It wasn't my ride, but most of us agreed that this was too big a group to try to keep together for the whole ride, though it wasn't stated explicitly what the expectation was for the ride. Saturday rides are longer rides (100+ km), but a bit of a mish-mash in terms of pace. Some call it a long endurance ride. Some call it a social ride. But the consensus was that after rolling out there would be separation by natural selection, meaning that someone will push the pace a tad and see who follows. Ten followed. That'd be the fast group.There might have been some further separation with the slower group.

We met up near the 40 km mark. Then rolled out again, with separation by natural selection again. This way almost everyone got what he/she wanted.
mcours2006 is offline  
Old 08-11-20, 02:55 PM
  #38  
mcours2006
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
mcours2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,198

Bikes: ...a few.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 231 Posts
Agreed that expectations should be explicitly stated. Takes the guess work out of the ride.

One of the weekday rides I do is a fast-paced ride, and it's understood that if you can't hang on they you ride solo for the rest of the ride. There is a brief stop at the halfway mark, so you have like maybe 10 minutes grace to catch up if you were dropped early. No one complains about it cuz that's what what the expectation is.
mcours2006 is offline  
Old 08-11-20, 03:00 PM
  #39  
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,689

Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked 413 Times in 246 Posts
It's a loose ride. You're riding for fun. If you don't feel like hammering, don't hammer. If you don't feel like dawdling, don't dawdle. If you need tighter parameters than that, form a more structured group.

FWIW, one of the rides I join regularly draws a mix of racers and newbies. We have a rest stop mid ride that allows people to ride their own pace but regroup mid-ride. Seems a reasonable compromise.
__________________

Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton


Last edited by bbbean; 08-11-20 at 03:39 PM.
bbbean is offline  
Likes For bbbean:
Old 08-12-20, 01:32 PM
  #40  
sfrider 
Asleep at the bars
 
sfrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA and Treasure Island, FL
Posts: 1,743
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked 203 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Exactly that. Poor form for someone to show up to an easy ride and accelerate because they wanted a harder ride, but no reason to let them ruin it for everyone.
Unless they explicitly state this up front - that they're going to roll with the recovery group for some stretch for warmup or just to socialize, then will split and take off at a higher pace at some point.
__________________
"This 7:48 cycling session burned 5933 calories. Speed up recovery by replacing them with a healthy snack." - Whoop

sfrider is offline  
Old 08-12-20, 09:45 PM
  #41  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
I might be unique here. If anyone else sees this and has done the same, please quote me - I'm curious. I've been riding with the same group for 20+ years. That is, technically the same group. I think there are only 3 of us left from the original group who still show up regularly. The group started off as an email list, but became a Google group, now with about 120 members. On a good sunny day before the plague, we'd get about 25 riders, not always the same ones.

In the beginning, everyone was about the same strength. When I joined the already-existing group, I was by far the weakest rider. There never was nor is a no-drop policy. If one wanted to ride with the group, one had to get fit enough to do so, which I did. Then over the years, people started going off in slightly different directions in their lives and as that happened, either lost or gained fitness. Faster riders went off the front. Slower riders got dropped and started coming in later and later. There was a good bit of noise in the group about this, but it's inevitable. Think about it. People are never in stasis. Riders who enjoy 18 mph average rides won't enjoy riding with people who enjoy 13 mph average rides. Not going to happen.

Sure, the group can regulate it and strike off the names of those who are too slow or too fast, but that's not going to happen with a group who have been fast friends for years. Our solution was to form 3 groups, the Rabbits, the Goldilocks, and the Laughers. Lately, we've added the Slackers. A small rotating cadre created all the routes, which were designed to finish at about the same time and which were published to the group ahead of time. Those groups then became essentially no-drop groups, because each had riders of about the same strength. It was easy to compensate for differences simply by having the stronger riders do more pulling and then regrouping at the bottoms of big descents. We're still at it, though smaller than we were.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 08-13-20, 08:29 AM
  #42  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by sfrider
Unless they explicitly state this up front - that they're going to roll with the recovery group for some stretch for warmup or just to socialize, then will split and take off at a higher pace at some point.
Depends IMO on the structure/organizer of the group ride. For example, if a leader organizes a club ride, with max of 8 signups, fills up his ride and then finds out at the start that there's a few folks who intend to drop or pull away, that's not ideal -- seeing as those riders took space away from others who couldn't get into the group because it was maxed out. OTOH, if the organizer has an unlimited attendance, then I suppose it's just fine.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 08-13-20, 09:10 AM
  #43  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times in 973 Posts
It takes leadership from the organizer. I've seen it plenty of times. The organizer either doesn't control the situation mid-ride or say a single word about how the ride will go that day before departing.

If it starts to happen, my favorite is to let them go, then alter the route. So they can't brag about "winning a group ride". We know the roads well enough, a left here, a right there.....back on route in 15min and they're out of sight for the rest of the day.

I stopped going to one ride in-town. It was supposed to be a segment hunt and regroup kind of deal. Over time, some folks would plow on past the regroup points. In the city there are stop signs and lights to heed as a group. But, nobody ever told those people that. So, they didn't know. They just see folks hammering over a hill and assume it's time to go go go. Then when folks hold up over the top and wait, they look back like "wtf?".

My pet peeve lately is the ass that wants to surge in a circular rotating paceline. Instead they jump off the front almost an entire bike length ahead of everyone. Also folks sitting out of rotation for a few turns don't know how to sit out.

Or folks hijacking the group's current strategy for making progress. If nobody wants to do a rotation, get over yourself yelling at people trying to get them to. Start a break of your own with people who want to rotate. I know why they do it, they are trying to force everyone to work identical time. But that's not always the best medicine in a group. Even in races folks don't always go for that. Get pissed, go off by yourself off the front. But don't ceaselessly argue with folks about it. It ain't your ride.
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:
Old 08-13-20, 11:08 AM
  #44  
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,689

Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked 413 Times in 246 Posts
Reading these responses reminds me that group riders can loosely be broken into two groups:

1) Cyclists who enjoy getting in a few miles with other cyclists, but who would be out riding regardless of the group ride. If the group is too fast or too slow, these cyclists will simply go off the front or fall off the back and enjoy a nice solo ride or ride with whoever else was riding at their pace.

2) Riders who see group rides as an opportunity for planning and decision making. These riders have very specific goals for the ride, and enjoy the process of achieving the goals as much or more than the actual ride itself. I suspect these riders also enjoy line dancing.

FWIW, I realize the real world is more complicated than this, but as I am firmly in group one, riding with too many people in group two can take some of the fun out of a pleasant day on the road. I've also seen the same distinction in other sports and group activities I enjoy. Some people really do enjoy rules.
__________________

Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline  
Old 08-13-20, 08:24 PM
  #45  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep
My pet peeve lately is the ass that wants to surge in a circular rotating paceline. Instead they jump off the front almost an entire bike length ahead of everyone.
You deal with those riders the same way you deal with riders who increase the speed of the group ride -- you just let them go.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 08-14-20, 06:50 PM
  #46  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep
It takes leadership from the organizer. I've seen it plenty of times. The organizer either doesn't control the situation mid-ride or say a single word about how the ride will go that day before departing.

If it starts to happen, my favorite is to let them go, then alter the route. So they can't brag about "winning a group ride". We know the roads well enough, a left here, a right there.....back on route in 15min and they're out of sight for the rest of the day.

I stopped going to one ride in-town. It was supposed to be a segment hunt and regroup kind of deal. Over time, some folks would plow on past the regroup points. In the city there are stop signs and lights to heed as a group. But, nobody ever told those people that. So, they didn't know. They just see folks hammering over a hill and assume it's time to go go go. Then when folks hold up over the top and wait, they look back like "wtf?".

My pet peeve lately is the ass that wants to surge in a circular rotating paceline. Instead they jump off the front almost an entire bike length ahead of everyone. Also folks sitting out of rotation for a few turns don't know how to sit out.

Or folks hijacking the group's current strategy for making progress. If nobody wants to do a rotation, get over yourself yelling at people trying to get them to. Start a break of your own with people who want to rotate. I know why they do it, they are trying to force everyone to work identical time. But that's not always the best medicine in a group. Even in races folks don't always go for that. Get pissed, go off by yourself off the front. But don't ceaselessly argue with folks about it. It ain't your ride.
A favorite saying, "Got 'em right where we want 'sm - out of sight."
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.