How to transition to the A group
04-12-16, 05:37 PM
#27
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+1 for my group rides i put my garmin on the map and only don't look at avg speed or anything else until the end. I either have it to stay in the group or I don't and whatever speed that day is doesn't matter. I am kinda in the same boat of B+/A- for our shop ride (tho i'm the skinny bastard you hate on hills but coast past going down).
If you are getting dropped on hills and know the routes you are doing then move yourself up before the hill then have everyone pass you going up. Then you are at the back going down and can recover.
knowing the speed difference between A and B would be helpful too. One shop I ride with the A is 20-21 down to 18-19 for B or a different shop they say the A is 18-20 and the B is 16-17.
If you are getting dropped on hills and know the routes you are doing then move yourself up before the hill then have everyone pass you going up. Then you are at the back going down and can recover.
knowing the speed difference between A and B would be helpful too. One shop I ride with the A is 20-21 down to 18-19 for B or a different shop they say the A is 18-20 and the B is 16-17.
Pretty funny in the sprint. He rides away from our group. The first time he joined us, I was near the front and grabbed his wheel as I didn't know him...and we were rolling 30mph for over a mile or so and I went anaerobic and he rode away from my buddy and me. We got dropped. 
Nice guy. He rides BIG miles and I see him on the road all the time.
04-12-16, 05:56 PM
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Pretty tame so called A group rides. My favorite group is what I call A- and average speed is 21mph with a sprint up over 30 at one point and the line can roll 25+ leading up to this for a couple of miles. There are a couple of faster groups in town with lots of CAT racers. A local CAT 2 sometimes joins our ride for fun. Probably his recovery ride. Pretty funny in the sprint. He rides away from our group. The first time he joined us, I was near the front and grabbed his wheel as I didn't know him...and we were rolling 30mph for over a mile or so and I went anaerobic and he rode away from my buddy and me. We got dropped. Nice guy. He rides BIG miles and I see him on the road all the time.
Pretty funny in the sprint. He rides away from our group. The first time he joined us, I was near the front and grabbed his wheel as I didn't know him...and we were rolling 30mph for over a mile or so and I went anaerobic and he rode away from my buddy and me. We got dropped. Nice guy. He rides BIG miles and I see him on the road all the time.without knowing what kinda leap the OP is trying to make it is hard to say how to go about it
04-12-16, 06:14 PM
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If you are riding at a fast B pace, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to move up to the A level. Every body has different natural talent (some have very little I have found) for cycling but your age should not be a limiting factor. I can still ride as fast at 55 as I could at 44 when I started. The difference at my age is that I can't recover from a longer ride to the next like I used to. Try doing Tabata intervals on a trainer. If done correctly, I guarantee it will make a difference.
04-12-16, 06:18 PM
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Racing helps. I'm not a great racer but hanging with the fast group rides is a lot easier since I started.
04-12-16, 07:56 PM
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I would target the Tuesday ride. You'll want to be fresh, so on Sunday maybe just an active recovery ride. That means an hour of just turning the pedals super easy. Don't be concerned if little old ladies on beach cruisers pass you; you just want to be keeping things loose. Monday off day.
On Tuesday, think about where you tend to get dropped. Is it on a hill? If so, it's worth it to burn a match to get up towards the front, or even off the front, of the group as you hit the base of the climb. Then climb your climb. Be steady and allow the group to filter around you as you drift towards the back. Hopefully, you'll run out of hill before you run out of group, then you attach and keep going. Repeat as necessary.
If you get dropped in a crosswind or tailwind, you need to focus on shelter. You may already do this, but take note of flags and trees, and focus on staying out of the wind as much as possible. Think of the route as it relates to the wind and think about the places where you need to be up near the front. Places where the route goes from a tailwind to a crosswind are really dangerous. In the tailwind, there's less benefit to drafting and the big horses can really ramp it up while weaker riders struggle to hold on. Then if the road turns and now it's a crosswind, those riders at the back who're already gassed are now fully exposed to the crosswind and they get popped.
Take a look at the riders on this ride. There are guys who always drive the pace, there are guys who always are in danger of getting dropped, and there are guys who might not be driving the pace but they never get dropped. Look for the never get dropped guys and take your cues from them. Don't allow yourself to be in a situation where you have to rely on a weaker rider to hold a wheel.
Also, think about the landmarks on the ride and make subgoals to just make it to those landmarks. You may get dropped, but next week come back and make it to the next landmark.
Remind yourself that when it's hard for you, it's hard for everybody else. When you think you're about to be dropped, give yourself permission but only after giving everything you've got for the next 30 seconds. This has saved me many times: I am absolutely chewing the bar tape and desperate to hold the last wheel and I say "Okay, 30 more seconds." And most of the time it will slow just enough to allow me to latch on and recover. But if you do get dropped, no worries, you've given it all you had and that's good training.
After you've been dropped, get a drink and maybe eat a little, but don't waste the opportunity to now get in some solid tempo work. After you've had 3-5 minutes of easy pedaling, push a hard but steady pace back home. That's some solid work and you'll come back stronger next time.
Good luck!
On Tuesday, think about where you tend to get dropped. Is it on a hill? If so, it's worth it to burn a match to get up towards the front, or even off the front, of the group as you hit the base of the climb. Then climb your climb. Be steady and allow the group to filter around you as you drift towards the back. Hopefully, you'll run out of hill before you run out of group, then you attach and keep going. Repeat as necessary.
If you get dropped in a crosswind or tailwind, you need to focus on shelter. You may already do this, but take note of flags and trees, and focus on staying out of the wind as much as possible. Think of the route as it relates to the wind and think about the places where you need to be up near the front. Places where the route goes from a tailwind to a crosswind are really dangerous. In the tailwind, there's less benefit to drafting and the big horses can really ramp it up while weaker riders struggle to hold on. Then if the road turns and now it's a crosswind, those riders at the back who're already gassed are now fully exposed to the crosswind and they get popped.
Take a look at the riders on this ride. There are guys who always drive the pace, there are guys who always are in danger of getting dropped, and there are guys who might not be driving the pace but they never get dropped. Look for the never get dropped guys and take your cues from them. Don't allow yourself to be in a situation where you have to rely on a weaker rider to hold a wheel.
Also, think about the landmarks on the ride and make subgoals to just make it to those landmarks. You may get dropped, but next week come back and make it to the next landmark.
Remind yourself that when it's hard for you, it's hard for everybody else. When you think you're about to be dropped, give yourself permission but only after giving everything you've got for the next 30 seconds. This has saved me many times: I am absolutely chewing the bar tape and desperate to hold the last wheel and I say "Okay, 30 more seconds." And most of the time it will slow just enough to allow me to latch on and recover. But if you do get dropped, no worries, you've given it all you had and that's good training.
After you've been dropped, get a drink and maybe eat a little, but don't waste the opportunity to now get in some solid tempo work. After you've had 3-5 minutes of easy pedaling, push a hard but steady pace back home. That's some solid work and you'll come back stronger next time.
Good luck!
04-12-16, 07:58 PM
#32
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I find the dynamic of Tuesday night rides to be about as tough as it gets. Rides are usually short and intense and everyone is really aggressive. I was able to easily hang in a 3/4 crit before I could hang in some of the local Tuesday night rides.
There is no way I could build enough fitness on 100 miles a week to avoid getting dropped on those rides. There are always the guys with natural talent who kill it on 5 hours a week, but most of the guys I know finishing in the lead group are putting in 8+ hours a week (some much more). It takes me a couple months of 10 hours a week to really play with the fast guys.
Lots of good advice here on optimizing your training, but don't expect to hang with strong cat 3 riders on an agressive Tuesday night ride with only 100 miles training a week (unless you picked good parents).
There is no way I could build enough fitness on 100 miles a week to avoid getting dropped on those rides. There are always the guys with natural talent who kill it on 5 hours a week, but most of the guys I know finishing in the lead group are putting in 8+ hours a week (some much more). It takes me a couple months of 10 hours a week to really play with the fast guys.
Lots of good advice here on optimizing your training, but don't expect to hang with strong cat 3 riders on an agressive Tuesday night ride with only 100 miles training a week (unless you picked good parents).
04-12-16, 08:18 PM
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which rides are you talking about? i need some fast group rides and I don't know any except gateway and busstop, and those are too fast.
04-12-16, 08:24 PM
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It's never occurred to me until this thread that I ride a lot more than the average roadie. When I started riding it was for weight loss, and I rode to a coffee shop about 10 miles from home, so I'd do 20 miles. When I got more serious, I just carried over the metric of 20 miles being the baseline for a ride, eventually that got translated to an hour being the baseline of riding, I ride almost every day, and end up riding 160-200+ miles a week. I do the "unofficial" Tuesday ride that leaves from the same parking lot as a scheduled ride wth the local cycling club. It's almost exclusively CAT racers, many 2-3, with a grab bag of 1's and 4's. The ride is brutal, and I think everyone there is doing about the same mileage as me, but many are doing far more focused training and coming in at the lower end of that range. Just about all the people I know who are successful are putting in about 10 or more hours a week though.
04-12-16, 09:02 PM
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What fine advice! I like how it's not eye-glazingly technical and abstract (all vO2 and FTP and zones and kiloJoules or whatever) and even seems like common sense, once you think about it. Some of it was sort of germinating in my mind before, but some of it may never have occurred to me at all. But the best part is, I can imagine actually FOLLOWING this advice, and having it work. Thanks for sharing!
04-12-16, 10:33 PM
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Lots of good advice here, but the simple answer is interval training. If you have one fast group ride a week, you should have one or 2 other rides that consist of very hard intervals..then a few very easy recovery rides the day after the hard rides. If you're thinking of it in terms of effort out of ten, the riding a lot at a 7-8 effort will not make you as fast as riding the same amount, but splitting it between efforts of 9-10 and 3-4. This kind of work conditions your cardio vascular system better, and will burn more fat, losing weight.
But man...when I do a hard set of intervals, I am wiped! It's been a week since my last serious interval session, and my legs are still not fully recovered. I assume the more I do them, the quicker I'll recover afterwards, but right now they kill me!
04-13-16, 04:34 AM
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It's never occurred to me until this thread that I ride a lot more than the average roadie. When I started riding it was for weight loss, and I rode to a coffee shop about 10 miles from home, so I'd do 20 miles. When I got more serious, I just carried over the metric of 20 miles being the baseline for a ride, eventually that got translated to an hour being the baseline of riding, I ride almost every day, and end up riding 160-200+ miles a week. I do the "unofficial" Tuesday ride that leaves from the same parking lot as a scheduled ride wth the local cycling club. It's almost exclusively CAT racers, many 2-3, with a grab bag of 1's and 4's. The ride is brutal, and I think everyone there is doing about the same mileage as me, but many are doing far more focused training and coming in at the lower end of that range. Just about all the people I know who are successful are putting in about 10 or more hours a week though.
1. desire
2. time
3. discipline in terms of what you eat and willingness to suffer to get faster. There is no other gateway other than to work your body harder...take it beyond its current level to get stronger. You can't do this with zone 2 and 3 riding. You need intensity. Btw, my mentality is...I can't do intervals...or seldom. I need to latch with local fast guys to push me as I don't like to get dropped.
Then there is the punishment of a hard A group ride strewn with CAT racers. I used to have more of an appetite for pain. A typical B ride is a bit too slow for me and a racer A ride too fast. So you need to find the right ride bottom line based upon the above.
To me training with a power meter just makes good sense. I have considered owning one but don't want to be abused by reminded how weak I am
and honestly, don't have the discipline to train to specific targets.Below is an excellent video of an ex pro Daniel Lloyd worth watching to see how it can be used purposefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrzvzmtU50A
Brief bio of Daniel during his racing career. I like this guy because we are built the same
...I have a few pounds on him...he is very skinny...but in his prime he could hold 300 watts for 3 hours and actually beat Froome in a race. He also talks about how a power meter helped:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqDKQ_t3KLw
04-13-16, 05:08 AM
#38
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For those of you who are telling OP to get a power meter- he already has one.
For those of you who are telling OP that he must ride greater volume, I ride around 8hrs/week now. I used to ride 10-15 hrs. What happened? My coach convinced me to ride less. Why? To get faster.
For OP, I ride 2-3 interval sessions per week, plus another 2-3 longer rides. I have abundant rest in my schedule and overall not tons of volume.
It sounds to me like you need a little more of a training plan. Either buy one or better yet consider a great coach. I can give you some tips on finding a good one, should you want to give it a try.
For those of you who are telling OP that he must ride greater volume, I ride around 8hrs/week now. I used to ride 10-15 hrs. What happened? My coach convinced me to ride less. Why? To get faster.
For OP, I ride 2-3 interval sessions per week, plus another 2-3 longer rides. I have abundant rest in my schedule and overall not tons of volume.
It sounds to me like you need a little more of a training plan. Either buy one or better yet consider a great coach. I can give you some tips on finding a good one, should you want to give it a try.
04-13-16, 06:15 AM
#40
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For those of you who are telling OP to get a power meter- he already has one.
For those of you who are telling OP that he must ride greater volume, I ride around 8hrs/week now. I used to ride 10-15 hrs. What happened? My coach convinced me to ride less. Why? To get faster.
For OP, I ride 2-3 interval sessions per week, plus another 2-3 longer rides. I have abundant rest in my schedule and overall not tons of volume.
It sounds to me like you need a little more of a training plan. Either buy one or better yet consider a great coach. I can give you some tips on finding a good one, should you want to give it a try.
For those of you who are telling OP that he must ride greater volume, I ride around 8hrs/week now. I used to ride 10-15 hrs. What happened? My coach convinced me to ride less. Why? To get faster.
For OP, I ride 2-3 interval sessions per week, plus another 2-3 longer rides. I have abundant rest in my schedule and overall not tons of volume.
It sounds to me like you need a little more of a training plan. Either buy one or better yet consider a great coach. I can give you some tips on finding a good one, should you want to give it a try.
04-13-16, 06:44 AM
#41
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Here's an example of 7 riding hours a week... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT9ZurNOt28
04-13-16, 07:05 AM
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I can't believe no one has said the most obvious answer yet - get a red bike. You'll be leading the A group in no time
04-13-16, 07:11 AM
#43
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04-13-16, 07:14 AM
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Lot's of riders seem to want a training program where you just follow a fixed plan for N weeks. But sustained progress comes from the feedback loop of assessing your performance and constantly adjusting the plan. A good coach will do this for you. If you're going to self-coach, you will want to learn how to do it yourself.
04-13-16, 07:16 AM
#45
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I've just started getting serious about intervals. But it's making a huge difference. When I used to go at "7-8", all I'd be good at is going 7-8, and not improving much. But what I'm finding when doing intervals is that when I am doing 7-8, I can lift to 9 or 10 for a short period (say to crest a small hill, or get through a steep pitch on a sustained climb), and return to 7-8 without blowing up. I didn't have that extra gear to go from a hard, sustained effort to a close-to-max effort, and return to a hard effort...instead I'd just blow up.
But man...when I do a hard set of intervals, I am wiped! It's been a week since my last serious interval session, and my legs are still not fully recovered. I assume the more I do them, the quicker I'll recover afterwards, but right now they kill me!
But man...when I do a hard set of intervals, I am wiped! It's been a week since my last serious interval session, and my legs are still not fully recovered. I assume the more I do them, the quicker I'll recover afterwards, but right now they kill me!
-I found a 20 minute interval training video on youtube (YES, only 20 MINUTES!) and did it 3 times over the course of 2 weeks, and noticed 2 things: (1) the very first interval session made me feel about to throw up, but each got a bit better....and (2) at the end of that 2 weeks, I went on a group ride and had a noticeable fitness increase as opposed to just doing normal rides. A few 20 minute workouts made at 2 hour ride noticeably easie
-It's amazing how quickly the body can adapt, especially cardio-vascular (Tendon, ligament, muscle conditioning takes longer)...especially the younger someone is. I remember back in high school soccer, we would have a week of 8 hour conditioning practices before school started, after a whole summer of mostly slacking off. That first day was brutal, but by day 5, we were all basically able to do the workouts without feeling like we were dying.
04-13-16, 07:51 AM
#47
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