Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
#1952
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
No, they did 90% in the first year. They were self-driving all over a number of routes in the bay area in 2010, just like the others like Cruise are doing now. I think Cruise is further along now than Waymo was in 2010, but they don't seem to be nearly as far along as Waymo is today. And that makes sense; they started much later.
#1954
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't recall this new (Feb 28, 2018) 360-degree video from Waymo being shared here yet. It explains their technology Be sure and move around as you watch it.
#1955
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
These things look like huge red flags to me:
- Disengage for unwanted maneuver of the vehicle
- Disengage for a perception discrepancy
- Disengage for incorrect behavior prediction of other traffic participants
- Traffic light detection
- Unexpected steering due to path change
- Strong unexpected braking
Some of those can only be translated as, 'Nowhere near ready to be used without supervision,' and yet that is exactly what California is going to allow? Are they seriously stupid enough to think that someone monitoring the car remotely, via video, will be nearly as good as someone actually in the car? On what planet are the two things comparable in terms of visibility, vehicle control and, wait for it, the instinct for self-preservation? FFS...
"Unwanted maneuver of vehicle," is insanely dangerous. "Perception discrepancy" is insanely dangerous. "Unexpected steering" is nuts. Ditto the rest.
If someone can't be right there, ready to take over in a split second (as indicated in the article, the humans usually took control in less than one second), then I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those things.
#1956
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Very interesting, and concerning, article.
These things look like huge red flags to me:
Some of those can only be translated as, 'Nowhere near ready to be used without supervision,' and yet that is exactly what California is going to allow? Are they seriously stupid enough to think that someone monitoring the car remotely, via video, will be nearly as good as someone actually in the car? On what planet are the two things comparable in terms of visibility, vehicle control and, wait for it, the instinct for self-preservation? FFS...
"Unwanted maneuver of vehicle," is insanely dangerous. "Perception discrepancy" is insanely dangerous. "Unexpected steering" is nuts. Ditto the rest.
If someone can't be right there, ready to take over in a split second (as indicated in the article, the humans usually took control in less than one second), then I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those things.
These things look like huge red flags to me:
- Disengage for unwanted maneuver of the vehicle
- Disengage for a perception discrepancy
- Disengage for incorrect behavior prediction of other traffic participants
- Traffic light detection
- Unexpected steering due to path change
- Strong unexpected braking
Some of those can only be translated as, 'Nowhere near ready to be used without supervision,' and yet that is exactly what California is going to allow? Are they seriously stupid enough to think that someone monitoring the car remotely, via video, will be nearly as good as someone actually in the car? On what planet are the two things comparable in terms of visibility, vehicle control and, wait for it, the instinct for self-preservation? FFS...
"Unwanted maneuver of vehicle," is insanely dangerous. "Perception discrepancy" is insanely dangerous. "Unexpected steering" is nuts. Ditto the rest.
If someone can't be right there, ready to take over in a split second (as indicated in the article, the humans usually took control in less than one second), then I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those things.
What I find most interesting in the article is this point from Waymo:
Waymo: “To help evaluate the safety significance of disengagements, Waymo employs a powerful simulator program. In Waymo’s simulation, our team can “replay” each incident and predict the behavior of our self-driving car if the driver had not taken control of it, as well as the behavior and positions of other road users in the vicinity (such as pedestrians, cyclists, and other vehicles). Our engineers use this data to refine and improve the software to ensure the self-driving car performs safely.”
And, they've been doing this for years, developing sophistication in their simulations as well as advancing the actual driver AI software.
I continue to suspect that the others are not as rigorous... they just haven't been in the game nearly long enough. We'll see.
#1957
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The misleading nature about the technology by those writing about it is astounding. Here is an article hand-wringing about the effect of solar storms disrupting GPS and thus rendering AVs dependent on GPS useless.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-solar-storms
Although it is mentioned, there is little emphasis on the fact that Waymo discovered years ago that they cannot rely on GPS, and don't.
From 2016:
"That means we don’t have to rely on GPS technology, or a single point of data such as lane markings, to navigate the streets."
https://medium.com/waymo/building-ma...r-723b4d9cd3f4
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-solar-storms
Although it is mentioned, there is little emphasis on the fact that Waymo discovered years ago that they cannot rely on GPS, and don't.
From 2016:
"That means we don’t have to rely on GPS technology, or a single point of data such as lane markings, to navigate the streets."
https://medium.com/waymo/building-ma...r-723b4d9cd3f4
Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 03-16-18 at 11:44 AM. Reason: correction
#1958
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
Uber Self-Driving Car Struck and Killed Arizona Woman While in Autonomous Mode
https://gizmodo.com/uber-self-drivin...-au-1823891032
https://gizmodo.com/uber-self-drivin...-au-1823891032
#1959
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Yup, it's the story all the naysayers have been waiting for...
Uber Suspends Self-Driving Tests After Pedestrian Is Killed In Arizona https://n.pr/2tWQbLm
Uber suspends all testing.
Article has a flaw however... mentions Tesla driver as "the first self driving car fatality..." which is false. Tesla did NOT have and still does not have a full autonomous mode for their vehicles.
Uber Suspends Self-Driving Tests After Pedestrian Is Killed In Arizona https://n.pr/2tWQbLm
Uber suspends all testing.
Article has a flaw however... mentions Tesla driver as "the first self driving car fatality..." which is false. Tesla did NOT have and still does not have a full autonomous mode for their vehicles.
#1962
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,487
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7651 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
Bloomberg Tech article definitely said there was an operator in the vehicle and the lady was jaywalking ... so there is a lot we don't know here. Did she stagger out from between two cars? Was the human driver drunk? Why didn't the backup safety driver take over? I assume from the time of reporting that the incident happened mid-morning Tempe time ... hard to explain.
Luckily Waymo has five million to Uber's two million miles of testing ... no word yet on whether Waymo will go ahead with its AV taxi plan in Phoenix.
Luckily Waymo has five million to Uber's two million miles of testing ... no word yet on whether Waymo will go ahead with its AV taxi plan in Phoenix.
#1963
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
Bloomberg Tech article definitely said there was an operator in the vehicle and the lady was jaywalking ... so there is a lot we don't know here. Did she stagger out from between two cars? Was the human driver drunk? Why didn't the backup safety driver take over? I assume from the time of reporting that the incident happened mid-morning Tempe time ... hard to explain.
Luckily Waymo has five million to Uber's two million miles of testing ... no word yet on whether Waymo will go ahead with its AV taxi plan in Phoenix.
Luckily Waymo has five million to Uber's two million miles of testing ... no word yet on whether Waymo will go ahead with its AV taxi plan in Phoenix.
What does that mean, "luckily"?
Hopefully Uber gets sued into oblivion, and everyone else learns their lesson. Also, the AZ governor that signed the executive order allowing this nonsense, should get plenty of heat as well. Who wants to be a human guinea pig for some tech jerks that will play fast and loose with your life?
#1964
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,487
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7651 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
Lol. yeah. This will end AVs the way the first automobile fatality stopped owner-operated cars.
#1965
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
I think that driver hit a horse or something.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#1966
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
It happened Sunday night at a location on northbound N. Mill Ave between the Red Mountain freeway bridge and Washington/Curry.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4367.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4367.../data=!3m1!1e3
Last edited by noisebeam; 03-19-18 at 02:49 PM.
#1967
Senior Member
Based on the map above there was a movie theater there and no place for parked cars on the road. Maybe the person called an Uber to drive them down ....err..... home from the movie.
#1968
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,487
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7651 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
It happened Sunday night at a location on northbound N. Mill Ave between the Red Mountain freeway bridge and Washington/Curry.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4367.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4367.../data=!3m1!1e3
Mystery.
#1969
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,842
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2337 Post(s)
Liked 2,821 Times
in
1,540 Posts
Thanks. I wonder if she was coming out of the park on the right ... across the way doesn't seem like much to interest a pedestrian. Of course, she could have been walking an established route and habitually cut across right there .... Not enough curve in the road to hide a pedestrian or a car, it looks to me.
Mystery.
Mystery.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#1970
Cycle Year Round
It was the car's fault
A pedestrian this time, can cyclist be far behind?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ash-in-arizona
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/uber...port-says.html
Or was she a cyclist?
.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ash-in-arizona
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/uber...port-says.html
Or was she a cyclist?
.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Last edited by CB HI; 03-19-18 at 06:10 PM.
#1972
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
It is a musical performance theater and it has a very large parking lot directly south of it. Any pickup/dropoffs should and do occur from the parking lot at the front entrance.
#1974
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Zero evidence as to fault.
#1975
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,487
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7651 Post(s)
Liked 3,473 Times
in
1,834 Posts
I assume Waymo won't comment for several days, and will continue with its program as planned.
I am really interested to hear about how this one happened. I wonder if the human driver will be liable?
I am really interested to hear about how this one happened. I wonder if the human driver will be liable?