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Got a derailleur alignment tool...

Old 09-15-20, 07:05 AM
  #1  
crankholio
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Got a derailleur alignment tool...

This has to be one of the best tools I've ever bought. Should have got one a long time ago.

I have this K2 Zed Sport frame with a non-replaceable derailleur hanger, and it was definitely out of alignment. Tool got it fixed with ease. Much easier than using a towel and channel locks with the derailleur still on the bike while trying to eyeball it.

Highly recommend getting one of these if you don't have one.

On a side note, every source I've found says my frame is aluminum, and I was afraid of bending an aluminum hanger (although not much choice when it's non-replaceable). But magnets stick to the frame. Go figure.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:09 AM
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I don't know why one would pay attention to what others say the frame is when you already know.

The DAG tool is stupid and a big lever. Do take care when using it. BTW I always have confirmed the der cage is straight WRT the middle cogs independent of what the DAG's indicator might suggest. Andy
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Old 09-15-20, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I don't know why one would pay attention to what others say the frame is when you already know.

The DAG tool is stupid and a big lever. Do take care when using it. BTW I always have confirmed the der cage is straight WRT the middle cogs independent of what the DAG's indicator might suggest. Andy
I felt better about using it once I knew the frame was steel.

The tool taught me I have no talent to eyeball the derailleur alignment.
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Old 09-15-20, 09:02 AM
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I was having an issue with an RD once, so I bought the Park alignment tool. It *was* out of alignment, but the misalignment was 90 degrees off of where I thought it was.
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Old 09-15-20, 09:51 AM
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We have a variety of wheel sizes on bikes in the household, down to 16". Not all alignment tools work with smaller wheel sizes and some will struggle with racks. This is is something to consider when choosing the tool.
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Old 09-15-20, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I don't know why one would pay attention to what others say the frame is when you already know.

The DAG tool is stupid and a big lever. Do take care when using it. BTW I always have confirmed the der cage is straight WRT the middle cogs independent of what the DAG's indicator might suggest. Andy

Are you saying that you trust your eye over what the tool shows? That's an outlying position.
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Old 09-15-20, 11:00 AM
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I used a 12" crescent wrench (masking tape on the jaws) and a straight edge on the dropout forr my ti bike with a steel hanger. Tool had so much leverage that is was child's play. Tools I have on hand always anyway. So easy I'm never going to buy the real tool and nave to store it and have it take up space.

To do the bending, I leaned the bike against the workbench, sat on a low stool, put one foot on the stays at the dropout. Doing a fully controlled bend was a piece of cake.
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Old 09-15-20, 11:38 AM
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It's one of the tools I have been thinking about 9and needing) for awhile... if my brother lived closer, I would have borrowed it by now.
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Old 09-15-20, 01:21 PM
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The alignment tool is indispensable at the shop, and is used several times a day. Found that 10 speed is sensitive and 11 speed is very sensitive to hanger alignment. If one is able to align by sight my hat is off to them!
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Old 09-15-20, 01:25 PM
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Anyone who actively works on their own bikes should own a DAG along with a set of proper cable cutters and a torque wrench.....
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Old 09-15-20, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by crankholio
This has to be one of the best tools I've ever bought. Should have got one a long time ago.

I have this K2 Zed Sport frame with a non-replaceable derailleur hanger, and it was definitely out of alignment. Tool got it fixed with ease. Much easier than using a towel and channel locks with the derailleur still on the bike while trying to eyeball it.

Highly recommend getting one of these if you don't have one.

On a side note, every source I've found says my frame is aluminum, and I was afraid of bending an aluminum hanger (although not much choice when it's non-replaceable). But magnets stick to the frame. Go figure.
So which tool did you buy?
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Old 09-15-20, 07:26 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
Are you saying that you trust your eye over what the tool shows? That's an outlying position.
No, I said I confirm the results with my eyes. This is coming from 45 years of doing this stuff, owned a Campy N tool since 1979... my eyes are well trained to see stuff many don't. But the point i didn't press was that an aligned hanger doesn't always result in a der cage that hangs coplanar to the cogs. Here's 3 reasons why that are not uncommon.

One is that the der mounting bolt (the "B" pivot) might not be machined axial and/or the various plates and clips not sit square. As one threads the mounting bolt into the hanger the hex wrench often is turning in a wobble path (using a T or Y wrench w/o a ball end makes this easier to see. At the point of complete install the bolt is at some slight off angle from the hanger's threads/face.

Two is that the cage pivot bolt can also be not made perfectly. Or the cage not mating with the bolt squarely.

Three is that the cage can be bent. This overlaps with example two to a degree. We see cages/pulleys that are planar to the cogs at one cage rotational set but shift into other combos so the cage is rotationally different and watch the pulleys loose that coplanarness to the cog set.

This is why I set the hanger to a point when the cage is at it's middle of the range of play out/take up it is as parallel to the cogs (generally the middle of the cog set) as possible. To average out any tolorances best possible.

I will certainly agree that in a LBS shop setting using DAG is a vast time saver and establishes a base line for fine tuning if that should be needed. But I will also disagree that it is a needed tool for the critical thinker at home. Not that having nice tools is wrong Andy.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:47 PM
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The green one...Abbey HAG.

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Old 09-15-20, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
No, I said I confirm the results with my eyes. This is coming from 45 years of doing this stuff, owned a Campy N tool since 1979... my eyes are well trained to see stuff many don't. But the point i didn't press was that an aligned hanger doesn't always result in a der cage that hangs coplanar to the cogs. Here's 3 reasons why that are not uncommon.

One is that the der mounting bolt (the "B" pivot) might not be machined axial and/or the various plates and clips not sit square. As one threads the mounting bolt into the hanger the hex wrench often is turning in a wobble path (using a T or Y wrench w/o a ball end makes this easier to see. At the point of complete install the bolt is at some slight off angle from the hanger's threads/face.

Two is that the cage pivot bolt can also be not made perfectly. Or the cage not mating with the bolt squarely.

Three is that the cage can be bent. This overlaps with example two to a degree. We see cages/pulleys that are planar to the cogs at one cage rotational set but shift into other combos so the cage is rotationally different and watch the pulleys loose that coplanarness to the cog set.

This is why I set the hanger to a point when the cage is at it's middle of the range of play out/take up it is as parallel to the cogs (generally the middle of the cog set) as possible. To average out any tolorances best possible.

I will certainly agree that in a LBS shop setting using DAG is a vast time saver and establishes a base line for fine tuning if that should be needed. But I will also disagree that it is a needed tool for the critical thinker at home. Not that having nice tools is wrong Andy.



Thanks for the detailed explanation. While the DAG won't win tool design awards, it is worth it as the OP says IMO.

Those critical thinkers continue to post questions about poor shifting, leading the the knee-jerk response: did you check the hanger alignment?
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Old 09-15-20, 11:15 PM
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I bought myself the Abbey HAG for a birthday present to myself at Sea Otter a couple of years ago. I got a free silicon pint glass from them to go with it.

It is a fine tool.

So is the HAG.
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Old 09-16-20, 05:33 AM
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Anyone who thinks they can eyeball whether a hangar is straight as well as a DAG is delusional.

And anyone who thinks they can eyeball whether a hangar is straight enough for 11 speed to work perfectly is also delusional.

Woodcraft in a post above makes a good point that there can be other causes of cage misalignment, but the first place I would always start is straightening the hangar with a DAG.

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Old 09-16-20, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Anyone who thinks they can eyeball whether a hangar is straight as well as a DAG is delusional.

And anyone who thinks they can eyeball whether a hangar is straight enough for 11 speed to work perfectly is also delusional.

Woodcraft in a post above makes a good point that there can be other causes of cage misalignment, but the first place I would always start is straightening the hangar with a DAG.

Call me crazy then. But on a good day I do a couple of hanger alignments, on a bad day more. Been this way for long before Abby or Park had their tools. I don't question the value of alignment tooling (having a hand scraped cast steel surface plate in my basement I'm pretty aware about precision tooling) just that they are not the der and it is the der that is the device that needs to be aligned. So any alignment tool is one degree of separation from the goal. To assume on the der being perfectly aligned flies in the face of what I deal with daily. Sure the nicer stuff is better and often so close to "perfection" that it's a waste off time to remove the der and re tweak the hanger alignment. But I see far too many Tourneys, Aceras and such that have cages not sitting coplalar even after the hanger tool is used. Hence my method. Andy
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Old 09-16-20, 07:25 AM
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Great tool to have but it can be an expensive unitasker. I made one for a few $ and stuff I had laying around. It works but not perfect, not ideal for efficient daily use but works good enough to fix the things a bent hanger causes.

Last edited by u235; 09-16-20 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 09-16-20, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
No, I said I confirm the results with my eyes. This is coming from 45 years of doing this stuff, owned a Campy N tool since 1979... my eyes are well trained to see stuff many don't. But the point i didn't press was that an aligned hanger doesn't always result in a der cage that hangs coplanar to the cogs. Here's 3 reasons why that are not uncommon.

One is that the der mounting bolt (the "B" pivot) might not be machined axial and/or the various plates and clips not sit square. As one threads the mounting bolt into the hanger the hex wrench often is turning in a wobble path (using a T or Y wrench w/o a ball end makes this easier to see. At the point of complete install the bolt is at some slight off angle from the hanger's threads/face.

Two is that the cage pivot bolt can also be not made perfectly. Or the cage not mating with the bolt squarely.

Three is that the cage can be bent. This overlaps with example two to a degree. We see cages/pulleys that are planar to the cogs at one cage rotational set but shift into other combos so the cage is rotationally different and watch the pulleys loose that coplanarness to the cog set.

This is why I set the hanger to a point when the cage is at it's middle of the range of play out/take up it is as parallel to the cogs (generally the middle of the cog set) as possible. To average out any tolorances best possible.

I will certainly agree that in a LBS shop setting using DAG is a vast time saver and establishes a base line for fine tuning if that should be needed. But I will also disagree that it is a needed tool for the critical thinker at home. Not that having nice tools is wrong Andy.
I'm with you on that. Take your time, look at it good and do it slow.
First step know the material your dealing with.
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Old 09-16-20, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Call me crazy then. But on a good day I do a couple of hanger alignments, on a bad day more. Been this way for long before Abby or Park had their tools. I don't question the value of alignment tooling (having a hand scraped cast steel surface plate in my basement I'm pretty aware about precision tooling) just that they are not the der and it is the der that is the device that needs to be aligned. So any alignment tool is one degree of separation from the goal. To assume on the der being perfectly aligned flies in the face of what I deal with daily. Sure the nicer stuff is better and often so close to "perfection" that it's a waste off time to remove the der and re tweak the hanger alignment. But I see far too many Tourneys, Aceras and such that have cages not sitting coplalar even after the hanger tool is used. Hence my method. Andy
Are you telling me that when you see a cage out of alignment you start by straightening that BEFORE you check the alignment of the hangar?

If so, I’m not letting you anywhere near my bikes.

The idea of bending stuff on the RD before checking the hangar with a tool... wow.
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Old 09-16-20, 07:59 AM
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People also need to realize that what is “close enough” 40 years ago, or even 20 years ago means something very different than today. Hangars have much lower tolerances than they used to for proper functioning. Two reasons:

1- Increases number of gears. Every time a gear gets added to the cassette, it either gets wider or the cog spacing gets narrower. Both of these things exacerbate issues if the alignment is off.

2- And since pretty much everything these days is indexed, you can’t compensate for these issues as you shift.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I don't know why one would pay attention to what others say the frame is when you already know.

The DAG tool is stupid and a big lever. Do take care when using it. BTW I always have confirmed the der cage is straight WRT the middle cogs independent of what the DAG's indicator might suggest. Andy
I’ll take Andy’s eyeballs over any tool.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:19 AM
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Andy is one of the main reasons this sub-forum provides valuable information for me. Nice to have succinct, real-world information.
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Old 09-16-20, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
The green one...Abbey HAG.
So to drive my point, HAG's design does not seem to allow it to work with 20" wheels and maybe even 24" could be a problem. In addition the tool moves so close to the wheels that it is likely to interfere with some rear racks. You may say that you do not deal with bikes that have such characteristics. Well, this type of tool is a long term investment, as you use it only once in a while, and by the 10th use you may find out that it does not work with the bike you need to fix.
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Old 09-16-20, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 2_i
So to drive my point, HAG's design does not seem to allow it to work with 20" wheels and maybe even 24" could be a problem. In addition the tool moves so close to the wheels that it is likely to interfere with some rear racks. You may say that you do not deal with bikes that have such characteristics. Well, this type of tool is a long term investment, as you use it only once in a while, and by the 10th use you may find out that it does not work with the bike you need to fix.
I use it minimum 5-6 times a day, every day. No, it doesn't work w/ small wheel bikes or racks but it works so well w/ every 'normal' bike that it still gets used a TON.
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