MEversbergII

So I am in the process of picking high-security locks for my wife and I and I realized that none of the top choices (the Abus Granit X Plus, New York Standard, and the Fahgettaboudit) use combos. While I get that cutting is evidently functionally impossible and require angle grinding), I just saw someone on Youtube pick a Fahgettaboudit in about 5 minutes. With that in mind, why don't these super-strong locks have something to better prevent picking? The video in question had the picker say that the Fahgettaboudit (my sample size of 1) didn't even have "false" parts to further delay pick time, which he claimed would have made a difference. Is it that combinations are actually inherently easier to pick than keys? I know I have certainly used the "tug and test" method on some old cable locks years ago, but that was hit-or-miss based on the cable and not exactly quick.

I suspect that with the way I plan to lock up, picking is probably pretty unlikely, but it did have me thinking - why not combos?

M.

General Geoff

Yes. Nearly all combination locks are very easily picked, shimmed, and/or bypassed.

base2 

Because a key is a thing you own & can be controlled.
A combinatio is a thing you know & can be learned. Learned things can be shared or figured out easily.

CliffordK

I think some companies have tried "Smart Locks". I don't know how successful they have been though. Electronics out in the elements? Risk of breaking them?

I do have a combo U-Lock, so they do exist, but you're right, they are not being produced with the most secure locks.

There should be enough history now to make locks very hard to pick.

Many locks that allow themselves to be closed while locked are susceptible to the coke-can attack (although house door locks have an extra pin to prevent that attack).

I do have a cheap combo cable lock, 4 tumblers, that has no false gates, and can be picked in seconds. But, it should be easy enough to build false gates into the tumblers to make a similar rotary picking very difficult.

Perhaps attacking the combination tumblers makes for a weaker lock?

CliffordK

Possibly.

But, when I got my bike stolen in High School, it was because I had lost the key somewhere near the lock.

In the last year or two, I've lost my key a couple of times, thankfully recovered and returned to me without taking the bike.

I did have an ex-acquaintance shoulder-surf, steal my bank card PIN, then steal the bank card. Since then, I've had a moderately more complex PIN, and been more selective with friends.

ChuteTheMall

I've lost keys, but I haven't yet lost my mind. I'd prefer a combo.

I notice safes use combinations, and cabinets generally use keyed padlocks.

base2 

Well, If you lost the key, it's hard to argue you didn't gave up interest in owning it. Effectivly leaving ownership to whoever was clever enough to solve the mystery. It's the same with combinations. The key was the combination. As soon as exploited, nothing is securable.

It's pretty crappy though to have a locked, but insecure bike walk off, though. I had my car broken into. The cop refused to do anything because it wasn't locked. So essentially the cop argued I left the contents available & free to anyone passing by on the street, therefore since I did not exert ownership the items weren't stolen...I think he just didn't want to do paperwork.

I guess the moral of the story, locks & security are different things. Keys are more secure.

canklecat

The Lock Picking Lawyer on YouTube has cracked every lock he's encountered so far (as of the last time I checked, a month or so ago). But he'll admit thieves who are serious about stealing bikes will use cutting tools, not lock picks or attempts to figure out a combination. He's had a couple of locks damage his hydraulic cutter, but I don't think he's used a grinder on any of his demo videos.

So, key lock, combination, weld the lock shut... probably doesn't matter to serious thieves. Since combination locks probably give the same actual security as key locks -- a deterrent to opportunists, and little more -- I suppose the lock makers might as well offer both.

AndreyT

Not the Bowley.

canklecat

Ah, that should be interesting. I'll watch that video later.

I've chosen specific U-locks based on his videos. Not that they're invincible, just difficult to open for anyone other than an expert and would require a fairly hefty and conspicuous bolt cutter to defeat. Good enough for my purposes.

Heck, I've even used a cable and lock for my bicycles and motorcycles and never had one stolen, even though a kid with a pair of heavy duty Fiskar scissors or those emergency medical scissors that can cut pennies could probably cut those cables in a few minutes.

fietsbob

No lock manufacturer reads this forum , so we who sit in the bleachers guess..

and Opine..









...

MEversbergII

Yeah, that's the guy. As the Kryptonite locks were what I was looking at buying, I watched his video on the Fahgetaboutit.

I also exclusively used a cable lock in my neck of the woods, though I'm planning on using these locks in a city. I suspect the being in public part will play a large role of it, but the more I know and can anticipate, the better.

Next step: Split hairs on which exact lock I want, because that's just how I am.

M.

PaulRivers

There's some sort of claim that combination locks are easier to break into vs key locks, and so (annoyingly) they only offer combo locks on lower end models. I find it much easier to set combo locks to the same combination then remember 4 digits, than I do to avoid misplacing a physical key.

I have had an issue with one combination lock I had though...put in the right combination, in the winter, it wouldn't open. I spent about 15 minutes trying it every way and while the numbers rolled fine it just wouldn't open. Put the combination in forward, backwards, upside down, etc, nothing. Had to get an Uber to get back to my car. I drove back...tried it one last time...this time it opened. Threw out the lock when I got home.

But according to my research this does happen sometimes with key locks as well so...ya know. I wish they made a more reliable and higher quality combo lock.

CliffordK

https://www.bowleylockcompany.com/



Most interesting lock.

Just don't lock yourself out of your house, and hope a locksmith will be able to get you in without destroying something.

No big bike U-Lock.

However, their padlock is bigger than it looks in the photos, and would likely pair well with the hardened bike security chains.

Good point, however, that a thief may be less concerned with finesse than breaking the lock, and may go straight to the croppers or the grinder (of course, drawing attention to themselves, if that really matters).

ColonelSanders

Get the Abus Granit X plus 540.


Bolt cutters can't get through it and more importantly, the locking mechanism is a quality one that will last for years and years and not get "stuck" on you.


When mated up to the ABUS U-Clamp for EaZy KF & ABUS EaZy KF KLICKfix-Mount, it is such a great and convenient system.


This mob are actually selling the Abus Granit X plus 540 with the mounting system, for a very competitive total price.


https://www.bike-components.de/en/AB...Holder-p37822/

MEversbergII

I saw his video on that - it was quite something. I am not, say, super interested in locks as a hobby, but that was an interesting mechanism. Huge lock body, too!

Cheers; it seems like it and the two Kryptonite locks are pretty much on the same level. Prices are comparable, too. The Kryptonite locks - especially the Faghetaboutit seem to be thicker - I don't know that the square section is anything more than marketing on the Abus - but both seem like they're over the threshold where you need to start using angle grinders. Does that Abus have an actual reputation for having a less potentially "sticky" lock than the Kryptonite one? I need to buy at least two anyways (one for me, one for my wife), so the bigger deciding factor is how the bikes themselves measure I suppose. For sure, nothing stops me from getting all three - the weight doesn't matter much as my plan is to strap them to the rear rack anyways (or at least one - 5lbs in a backpack is basically nothing when you're riding, and they're small wheel folders anyways so I'm not exactly high speed low drag to begin with). One lock for each to secure the frame to the post in question, plus the third one to lock the bikes themselves together.

I have also noticed that wheel locks seem to have increased in popularity as a secondary lock type - something big and strong to secure the actual bike to something like a post, and a wheel lock to make them do a bit more work before riding off with the thing. Or maybe they'll move on to another one. Makes me wonder if I could mount one on my folder - I've long though those were pretty neat, even if they weren't really all that practical.

M.

ColonelSanders

On an ounce for ounce basis, Abus appears to use a higher/tougher grade of steel than Kryptonite, so they don't need to use as much of it, for comparable results.


When it comes to using an angle grinder, I've seen different reports/reviews showing in some instances the Abus takes longer to cut through and in others the Kryptonite takes longer, but they definitely are the two leading brands for how long it takes an angle grinder to get through a U-lock.


Yes.


If Abus didn't exist, I would be happy to buy Kryptonite's U-locks instead, but as long as Abus exists, I will be getting their stuff as I am confident I will have less issues, and in fact literally no issues whatsoever.


I'm not a weight weenie, but the 300mm Abus Granit X 540 is lighter than the 150mm Fageddabouit, and the extra length has come in handy so many times for me.

MEversbergII

Cheers; length is an issue, especially as I'm wondering about locking the bikes shut in the folded position on occasion (cable would do, sure, but what about a ULock?). Downside to the extra length, though, is jacks - takes more to fill the space. Might not actually be realistic, though.

M.

ColonelSanders

How much space does a jack need?


They can't brace against the frame(or they would destroy the frame), so I presume they would have to brace against one of the sides of the U-lock, but there is only 4.25" of space internally between the sides of the Abus X-540.

Gresp15C

I prefer combination locks. I'm skeptical about lock picking, and I suspect that outside of extreme environments like certain urban areas, bike locking is mainly a form of security theater. Thieves are probably a lot less likely to attempt picking a lock, than to look for a bike that's been left unsecured by mistake, or just cutting the lock.

If a bike thief is like a predatory animal, then they're running a risk/benefit analysis in their subconscious brain. The risk is getting caught or paying an opportunity cost if there is a better bike to steal. The benefit is the value of what they can fence. I make sure there's a better bike to steal.

CliffordK

For security chains, the square cross-section is supposed to be much harder for bolt cutters to get a bite into. I presume the same is for the U-Lock shackles.

I suppose that translates to a lighter lock for the same price.
Not a lot, but in many cases, my Kryptonite NY lock will about double the weight of my pack or panniers. And, yes, I'm pretty sure I can feel it riding.

I'm seeing a few notes about the Abus Granite 540 which is apparently slightly lighter than the competition.

Those wheel locks were popular in Italy in the 1980's. I think the new ones are stronger. I don't think I've seen them in use here in the USA. But, they certainly would be good for a quick stop, or perhaps as a secondary lock. Or, a lock + cable.

Mitkraft

fietsbob

Abus bordo combination bike lock 9 of 15 ...

4 dials ..

Those rated 10 & 15 use keys ..

PaulRivers

In theory, but in practice bike thieves aren't spending hours slowly working away all the possible combinations. They just cut the lock.

As others have pointed out "the lock picking lawyer" has demonstrated that you can pick the high end key locks in a few minutes if you wanted to. But thieves just cut them instead.

tcs

OP - Squire Hammerhead Combi 230/290, six wheels, rated Sold Secure Silver.