What Work Is Being Done For Serious Non Pneumatic Tires?
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We have a difference in semantics. From the article: "The end goal is to replace both tire and wheel with a full assembly unit for passenger vehicle use. " So the tire and wheel are the same object. One part has been eliminated. No matter how you phrase it, I think that's got to be much more difficult to achieve on a bike.
Their current prototypes are attached to wheels.
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#28
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They look like they'll last about 500 miles and be dangerous when they begin to break up. This made worse if there's any sidewall deflection, a little of which is beneficial on road cars..
I wonder what's in those vanes, can't just be rubber alone..?
I wonder what's in those vanes, can't just be rubber alone..?
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Bridgestone has been working on non-pneumatic bicycle tires for many years.
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Using a compressible fluid makes the most sense. If you can figure out a compressible fluid that is as light as air, yet compresses like a fluid, but doesn't leak like a fluid through say a hole in a tire or tube. Then you've hit pay dirt.
IMO creating a non-pneumatic tire for cars is about the stupidest idea. Flats are very rare. And performance will only decrease and cost will increase with a solid wheel or tire.
On bikes. IMO, not really worth it. Running a successful tubeless setup is about as good as it gets.
As stated, the pneumatic tire really was a game changer when it was introduced. You will not be able to get the same properties of compressed air that can balance ease of manufacture and cost.
IMO creating a non-pneumatic tire for cars is about the stupidest idea. Flats are very rare. And performance will only decrease and cost will increase with a solid wheel or tire.
On bikes. IMO, not really worth it. Running a successful tubeless setup is about as good as it gets.
As stated, the pneumatic tire really was a game changer when it was introduced. You will not be able to get the same properties of compressed air that can balance ease of manufacture and cost.
#31
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Tubeless with stans works great, no flats in 5 years.
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I have to wonder if we'll start seeing new foams in the near future.
For example, the Aerogels are light as a feather, but most are brittle, and perhaps not appropriate as a tire filling.
However, a similar fill might be possible to give a flat-free effect without a weight penalty.
One of the issues that has never been quite clear with my Tannus tire is how much permanent compression the tire has been subjected to. It seems as if I have some flattening both due to wear and due to simply being permanently compressed.
I have to think that impacts other liners.
Also, the Tannus tire was a major hassle to install. But, I was doing it on narrow rims, and I think oversized pins. It seems like some of the foam inserts might also be difficult to install, assuming they are designed to tightly fill the tire.
That would be an advantage of the tube + liner above, so it should install easily, then get inflated for longterm use.
For example, the Aerogels are light as a feather, but most are brittle, and perhaps not appropriate as a tire filling.
However, a similar fill might be possible to give a flat-free effect without a weight penalty.
One of the issues that has never been quite clear with my Tannus tire is how much permanent compression the tire has been subjected to. It seems as if I have some flattening both due to wear and due to simply being permanently compressed.
I have to think that impacts other liners.
Also, the Tannus tire was a major hassle to install. But, I was doing it on narrow rims, and I think oversized pins. It seems like some of the foam inserts might also be difficult to install, assuming they are designed to tightly fill the tire.
That would be an advantage of the tube + liner above, so it should install easily, then get inflated for longterm use.
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I only tried non pneumatic for about ten minutes and the ride was terrible. The wheels felt like boat anchors.
But I'm interested. On my last ride I got two flats and had to bum an emergency back-up tube off a friend.
But I'm interested. On my last ride I got two flats and had to bum an emergency back-up tube off a friend.
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Pneumatic tires on an automobile adds unwanted rotational weight. If a vane tire were to be 20% or less to a traditional steel belted tire in lbs, it'd be a direct positive impact to performance and efficiency.
If a bicycle tire were layered with thicker compounds and had a bead that was more robust, I'd feel more confident in having less flats... kinda like a motorcycle tire, just with a tube.
If a bicycle tire were layered with thicker compounds and had a bead that was more robust, I'd feel more confident in having less flats... kinda like a motorcycle tire, just with a tube.
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A new concept comes out every ~5 years or so. They sell a few to people who claim they are the best thing ever, then no more. Then they disappear.
Flat tires are just not the scourge that airless tire fan make them out to be. Between flat resistant tires, tubeless tires, and liquid sealants, I would be surprised if any airless tire design catches on in my lifetime (I figure I've got 30-40 years left).
The article about the Michelin/GM product claims that they are going for lifetime efficiencies, ie. fewer tires discarded early due to damage of irregular wear, but because of the lower loads and speed requirements on bicycle tires, simple repairs can usually be done to salvage a damaged tire, and irregular wear isn't really a thing unless your frame is twisted or you mount your bike crooked on a trainer. In practice there is little benefit, and if there is a penalty of 200g or 50W, they will probably not be accepted for regular bicycle use.
Flat tires are just not the scourge that airless tire fan make them out to be. Between flat resistant tires, tubeless tires, and liquid sealants, I would be surprised if any airless tire design catches on in my lifetime (I figure I've got 30-40 years left).
The article about the Michelin/GM product claims that they are going for lifetime efficiencies, ie. fewer tires discarded early due to damage of irregular wear, but because of the lower loads and speed requirements on bicycle tires, simple repairs can usually be done to salvage a damaged tire, and irregular wear isn't really a thing unless your frame is twisted or you mount your bike crooked on a trainer. In practice there is little benefit, and if there is a penalty of 200g or 50W, they will probably not be accepted for regular bicycle use.
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Solid wheels are more conducive to tubeless pneumatic tires because they can be manufactured to very precise tolerances, ensuring consistent airtight bead fitment and negating the need for messy sealant. They are unfortunately a bit heavier than traditional spoked wheels.
I'm not as negative about experimentation as some. 9/10 ideas fizzle but every once in a while a pretty good idea comes about. But you have to go through the R7D process to find it.
In one way, bicycles are considered a "mature" technology, so that most of the design elements have been developed to a very efficient state. That doesn't mean new ideas can't be developed. It does mean they probably create a new concept of bicycle or allow for a use not anticipated by the original design. Technical downhill mtb is a good example of that. The new use completely redesigned the base unit.
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Solid wheels are more conducive to tubeless pneumatic tires because they can be manufactured to very precise tolerances, ensuring consistent airtight bead fitment and negating the need for messy sealant. They are unfortunately a bit heavier than traditional spoked wheels.
#39
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I notice that maallyn started but hasn't participated in this discussion. Makes me wonder if he/she has any real interest in it.
Next up: noseless saddles!
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#42
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Spec sheet says Encore (formerly Aerospoke) rear wheel with Shimano hub is 1645g, not including skewer. That's one wheel, not the set. I can't speak for the Encores, but Aerospoke had a reputation for being laterally flexy.
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I think the extra weight is only half the penalty. The other half is rolling resistance. Pneumatic tires have less rolling resistance than alternatives with similar suspension qualities.
#44
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Pneumatic tires on an automobile adds unwanted rotational weight. If a vane tire were to be 20% or less to a traditional steel belted tire in lbs, it'd be a direct positive impact to performance and efficiency.
If a bicycle tire were layered with thicker compounds and had a bead that was more robust, I'd feel more confident in having less flats... kinda like a motorcycle tire, just with a tube.
If a bicycle tire were layered with thicker compounds and had a bead that was more robust, I'd feel more confident in having less flats... kinda like a motorcycle tire, just with a tube.
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The tubeless tires would need thicker layers than what they average now. toss in a tube, & that could become a bulletproof tire setup.
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The don’t think non-pneumatic will ever takeoff for serious bicycle use until they figure out how to easily change the stiffness. With a pneumatic tire, all you do is add or take away air.
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I don't think people who desire lightweight and aero are the target market for airless wheels of any kind. That Bridgestone one has the look of something made in a single injection molding... for strollers or fleet bikes or something like that. Compare it to dozens of spokes and nipples that all have to be assembled and trued and which fail one at a time, you can see the attraction.
The Tweel, man they have been working on that thing for decades.
The Tweel, man they have been working on that thing for decades.
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Incredibly fragile. Aerogel turns to powder quickly if you compress it. I think their only use is for space shuttle reentry and similar applications where low weight and thermal performance are required.