raybo

So, how to make lemonade out of these lemons?

Maybe you or, better, your boys can create a group, with attendant certification process, that recognizes the accomplishment of riding a bike from the northern tip of Alaska to the southern tip of Chile. That way, they can award themselves certificates number 1 and 2, putting themselves at the top of the list permanently!

This might teach them several lessons, such as, how hard it is to create a rigorous system of recognition, how hard it is to verify claims, and how hard it is create something new that you believe in.

Ray

MassiveD

I guess I just have less sympathy for Guiness in this case than Nancy's kids. Assuming the facts are reasonably straigth. Guiness played along, they have a reasonable reason for discontinueing the record, what does it hurt them to send the kids a certificate as the last holders of the record, or whatever the chronology is.

Yeah sure, somewhere kids are dying of aids, but until enveryone on the board shuts down their participation in cycling, sells off their gear, and guiness does the same, sends the money to the Gates foundation or whatever, I don't see any problem in pursuing this. There are a lot of stupid excuses here. The Demming things doesn't seem to apply unless the "organization" has someone in it not rooting for this award to be given to the kids.

I'm not really into records but a 13 year old is a totally different animal. Much of the time people have been carping about how these kids are going to get socialized, well being able to show you weren't just homeless for a while, and that you did something that was recognized would be a start with some peers.

staehpj1

I do feel sorry for the Vogels, but also think that the concept of these records for kids is just not a good thing. It is likely to lead to kids being dragged through stuff that they really shouldn't be. Note that I am not saying that is or is not the case with the Vogels.
I guess when it comes right down to it the whole GWR thing is pretty hokey, but for kids it is even worse. I actually think GWR are doing something right by phasing out the world records for children.

I have met some adults who as kids had what I assumed were wonderful opportunities, like sailing around the world in one case, trekking in Nepal in another, and hiking the AT in yet another. Their take in all three was that they missed out on having a normal childhood while they lived out their parents dreams. Having an organization like GWR encourages that kind of thing.

I have to admit that at least it isn't creepy as child beauty pageants or dragging kids into reality TV shows like Wife Swap, but this kind of thing can sometimes border on abuse or actually rise to the level of abuse in the worst cases.

Rowan

This is the whole point about what Guinness did in closing down the option for youngest records when it comes to 13yos and younger. They are different animals because they are unable to make the judgments required without adult intervention. Usually, that intervention is what instills in them an expectation that otherwise they would not have instilled in them at that age.

What I find fascinating about all this right from the start is that we are getting a very filtered version of things from nancy sv on these forums. The youngest of her kids is now eligible by age to be a member of BFs, and certainly the older one is. Yet, I don't recall seeing them participate in any discussion here.

Until now, I have just let the Vogel adventure pass on by, mainly because one of my best friends had no qualms in getting his family out and about and doing marvellous things on bikes right across the globe. The two now-adult daughters are well-adjusted, intelligent and fully capable of taking care of themselves in just about any environment.

But this latest episode, to me, is just a bit much, and especially when Nancy has appealed for other BF members' assistance to further what appears to be more her agenda that her boys'.

A bit of background here, too. Several years ago, an Australian girl, Jessica Watson, planned a round-the-world voyage. On a practice sail, she ran into strife when her yacht and a ship collided. Everyone from state premiers to child protection groups were up in arms and said she was too young at the age, IIRC, of 15. Watson shrugged off the criticism, and she successfully completed the voyage to become the youngest person to ever do so. But her record was NOT officially recognised.

Then last year, IIRC, a Dutch girl who was younger (13yo, I think) decided to do a circumnavigation. The furore in The Netherlands resulted in court action and a court-imposed ban on her doing the voyage. The ban was eventually lifted, and she started the trip. She was rescued a comparatively short time later when her yacht ran into difficulties.

While no physical harm was done to either in their endeavours, they did have to endure consirable public backlash and one wonders what effect that will have on their adult lives.

The official recognition of "youngest this, youngest that" has the potential to run into child exploitation as parents seek out the mighty dollar, or at least this sort of recognition. We've seen it in professional sports such as tennis (as the most obvious example where the child participants have long faded from the public spotlight and the after-effects have not been good).

skilsaw

Now if you were to eat more than 60 hot dogs in under 10 minutes, that would be a real achievement and worthy of the Guiness Book of World Records.

MassiveD

Rowan, I don't mind Guiness ending this record, but I would have a problem if they led these kids on and then crapped out on them. In your example, that would be like someone egging on the circumnavigators, then after they got in sufficient trouble cancelling the record that egged them on. guiness got them all worked up (according to Nancy) now that the trip is over they have discovered their conscience. I also think it is a little too later for Guiness to start worrying about the effect of their record book, they are responsible for making money off all this nonsense while individual sports organizations could have happily kept these records.

On the kid thing, the examples you give are all of young kids who do solo trips, without parental supervision. I get that this is the kind of stuff that the records insite, but it couldn't be more different than two parents taking their kids on a long ride where they were in close contact. Indeed Nancy's trip probably meant more parental supervision, and adult supervision than most kids ever get. I don't want to condem these efforts of young kids, since I was soloing ice and rock climbs are 13, but I don't think kids should be pushed into these things. My parents didn't want me doing them, while a kid with a yacht pretty much has to have parental support. I sail today, and the circumnavigation stuff, in a race way is pretty crazy.

The whole idea that Nancy is a bad parent because of the touring is ridiculous. Many people think this kind of thing is crazy, any trip that doesn't end with a Holliday Inn is irresponsible. One can argue this stuff one way or another, but there are so many worse things parents can do, from having alcohol in the home, smoking, talking on their cells while driving with kids, etc... etc... Nancy is nowhere near being a bad parent for the trip. I do think the trip had risks, but so do all kinds of behaviour, this one just doesn't stand out in my mind.

Most likely what is happening in this case is that Guiness doesn't even know who these kids are for the most part, and isn't egging anyone on, has just changed a policy that was bound to hurt someone's feelings and too bad about that. But they could probably mitigate the harm somehow, and I think they should. They could dream up some title, like Junior Fellow of the Guiness Book of Records and give it to "kids of distinction", and one catagory could be kids who get cut off due to some policy change, but otherwise fulfilled a requirement. They could give it to kids who nearly acheive kid friendly records but die of cancer, etc...

zonatandem

We've set a world record and not interested in getting into their book.
We know we've done it and that's satisfying enough.
The record?
Over 240,000 miles of riding as a tandem duo.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

dengidog

This one has me torn. On the one hand, I totally agree that GWR should withdraw all of those stupid "youngest to do X" that they had. Not only did those two young yachters get in trouble, but do you remember the 11 year old who was trying to be the youngest to fly around the world? She and her adult co-pilot died in their attempt.

On the other, Nancy's kids followed the rules. They contacted Guiness and made sure they crossed their "t"s and dotted their "i"s before they hit the road. They played by the rules. Unfortunately, while they were on the road, the rules were changed. Yes, it would be nice to have it grandfathered, but GWR is within its rights to change their minds.

So, what can be done for these 2? Surely, a ceremony could be done with some sort of certificate presented to the boys from some local bigwig (or maybe even write to a Senator) recognizing their incredible accomplishment and getting their pic in the paper. Even if GWR gave them some sort of certificate, it wouldn't go in the book (to prevent copycats), so really the outcome would be the same. The boys need to know that there will be many, many times in their life when they accomplish something spectacular (helping the homeless/volunteering at a shelter/foiling a robbery/cutting an old person's grass for free) and it will never be recognized by anyone but themselves. And it will be enough.

surfrider

I'd say give an appeal a try, but don't be surprised if its denied and you/the kids have to suck it up and just move on with life. Guiness is more of a marketing organization than anything; its not a 'governing' body of anything like the IAAF for track & field/athletics records, or the ICU(?) for bicycling. I'd be more of a good experience for the kids knowing that life can be unfair and 'rules' can change (its happened to me many times in my 50+ years). As an example think of the disclaimer on bicycle manufacturers' printed specs - "specifications subject to change without notice" - which allows them to change things mid-year for cost control/production/marketing reasons. Another advantage of denial might be the kids not ending up stuck in the past and reliving their 'glory days' when they get older, a la the characters in Bruce Springsteen's song 'Glory Days'.

manapua_man

The only Guiness I care about is the beer.


Just thought I'd throw that out there.

BengeBoy 

Nancy,

Here is an ethical question for you. If Guinness has decided to stop recognizing these kinds of records because they encourage parents (and kids) to undertake hazardous record-breaking initiatives, would *you* be willing to step up and set up the category on your own? In other words, why not just create a website called "World-record bike touring journeys by kids under 16," enter your kids as the world record holders for youngest to do the PanAmerican Highway, and then invite others to register their own journeys? You could recruit a few of your fellow bloggers to serve as the "board," establish rules for authentication, and then let people have at it?

Would you be OK with that? Or - can you imagine that some day would might find yourself in the same situation Guinness is in -- feeling just a little bit squeamish that you had set off a "race to the bottom," and before you knew it younger and younger kids were being encouraged to take on greater and greater risks? And, if you would have trouble overseeing this "youngest long-distance cyclist" challenge, can you see why Guinness dropped it?

Maybe it's a chance to discuss with your kids the fact that Guinness made a good decision here, and if you wouldn't feel right about doing this on your own, maybe it's not the best thing to press them to recognize a record in a category that they eliminated for good reasons.

My 2 cents (BTW, I followed your blog the entire journey, and enjoyed it).

BB

simplygib

I think this could be a great learning experience for the boys. File it under the "life isn't fair" category. Maybe from this they'll learn that promises aren't always kept, and that the real value from their experiences comes from within themselves. The more you rely on admiration from others to validate your accomplishments, the more disappointment you can expect in life.

They cycled from Prudhoe Bay to Ushuaia. Is that not enough?

IceNine

3 years is also a long time to expect there to be no changes made. It isn't as though they said, "here is our policy" then changed it a week later.

As people get more information, they SHOULD be updating policies. I would hate to think that all of my company's policies are etched in stone in perpetuity.

Bekologist

this is a sticky ethical dilemma for guiness - they offer up VERY SOUND reasons for discontinuing the 'youngest' catagories..... there has been a lot of published criticisms of youngest athelets going well beyond their mental capabilites, leading to disaster and even tragedy.

child pilot, circumnavigation attempts, there have been several notable catastrophes associated with ever younger participants in very serious business. perhaps, just perhaps, eright year olds aren't fit to fiy a plane cross country or climb to the top of mount everest, and should not be encouraged by a attempts at these laudations.

Guiness has very sound reasons for discontinuing the category of youngest adventurers achieving serious objectives

- maybe, you could get guiineess to come up with some type of quasi official commendations for your kids short of a world record, in recognizance of them pursuing the record even after it had been removed as a category.....

qmsdc15

Guinness adds and removes categories all the time. This is not something new or a change in rules or policies. Many have been in the book who are no longer in it. Many have begun long term projects to find the value of their work reduced before the effort is completed, and the rewards less than expected. That's life, but I don't think it's proof that life is unfair.

The reason for discontinuing the category seems to be somewhat of an ethical decision not merely a question of limited space in the book.

Whining about it sets a bad example for your kids.

If the "youngest to complete" categories have indeed been excluded out of interest iin the safety of children, I believe you are on the wrong side of this fight.

MassiveD

"If the "youngest to complete" categories have indeed been excluded out of interest iin the safety of children, I believe you are on the wrong side of this fight."

That could be true if they were setting off on a trip and bemoaning that a class of record had been pulled. This is the reverse, guiness was their best friend on the whole record thing, until it came time to confirm it. It just ads confusion to conflate what has happened with some policy issue in general, or going forwards. All assuming we are getting the right story here.

I remember a pleasanter time when as a 12 year old I could climb any insane rock route I wanted at the Guiness estate, Lugalla. I am glad that back in those days nobody gave a rattly about whether you were a kid or not.

yiffzer

World records proves nothing. Why are people concerned with setting a record? It only encourages a massively stupid primitive group of people willing to die for recognition. We already know that human beings are capable of many things. It's just silly to constantly have to prove it. We get it, people. You can do it. Good for you. Move on. Breaking a record should be a humble and personal thing - it does not belong on a book or database. It belongs in your own mind and heart and remains a fantastic story to be shared with your friends and family.

qmsdc15

The policy hasn't changed. Guinness has and will continue to remove and add categories for inclusion in their book. Are you suggesting they should not allow the documentation of any record attempts due to the fact that the category might be eliminated before completion of the attempt?

At some time during the attempt to break the record or perhaps after completion, Guinness removed the category from it's book. Was that wrong?

rogerstg

I wonder; is this really about the kids or is it about the parents wanting recognition for their little darlings?

Nancy's posts read like a super-sized version of mommy creating a fuss because little Johnny is not getting the playing time (soccer, baseball - pick your sport) that he deserves because of (pick any - hard work, talent, intelligence). In the end, it's usually more about the parents than the children, though IMO, it's a bad example to set.

While it may seem reasonable to let 13 year old kids decide to fight this alleged unfairness, it turns out that it's mommy doing the fighting? Besides, IMO, parenting requires that they use some wisdom to guide decisions, given that children tend to make decisions based on emotion in the moment.

It's sad that these parents have allowed the postscript of their great adventure to result in their children feeling cheated. How backward is that?

joel2old

Eoungh said! It amazing how parents can take the enjoyment out of a child's achievement by something said or done.

MassiveD

"The policy hasn't changed. Guinness has and will continue to remove and add categories for inclusion in their book. Are you suggesting they should not allow the documentation of any record attempts due to the fact that the category might be eliminated before completion of the attempt?"

Wouldn't bother me. This case is represented as being different, in that they were in contact with Guiness from early on. Guiness has to have flexibility, it is up to them how uncaring and slipshod they want their practices to be seen to be. Would you go so far as to suggest that they could cut and paste their catagories, possibly while pocketing cash to the benefit of certain people who would then be perpetual winners. If that doesn't sound reasonable then you would seem to support the idea that they have some responsibility to be seen to be fair, and transparent. Just how far they take that they can see as a business decision, etc... People may be getting Nancy weary around here, otherwise the risk of Guiness loosing support around here seems slight.

"At some time during the attempt to break the record or perhaps after completion, Guinness removed the category from it's book. Was that wrong"

I would argue that it is inevitable for certain more popular categories, and something that would happen a fair bit. So the question looking purely from their perspective, is how do they mitigate what might appear to be unfairness, and could end up even as liability. I don't know what real loss there would be to Nancy et all, but to someone like say an Imax investing a lot in a venture it could amount to financial loss. Should Guiness have a policy in place, to mitigate an inevitable result of their activities, particularly when it would seem extremely easy to do. Makes sense to me, but there may be complications, and roads they have already been down on this.

MassiveD

" In the end, it's usually more about the parents than the children, though IMO, it's a bad example to set."

Right, kids don't exist and none of them ever achieve anything on their own.

bikingshearer 

Wow. Just . . . wow. Talk about a tough room.

The OP and her kids feel a wrong was done them because the rules were changed on them, without notice, in mid-stream and they are trying the available channels to right that perceived wrong. No whining, no mention of threats, an express disclaimer of trying to sue (which would almost certainly go nowhere), no nothing except going through the available and appropriate channels. In the process, the kids will learn one of two lessons, each equally valuable: (1) sometimes, to get what you expect, you have to go the extra mile; or (2) sometimes things don't go your way, even if you follow the rules and do what your were told you are supposed to do.

At some point, the kids will have to learn to pick their battles. That will come with time. Knowing what might be entailed in fighting for what you want or believe your have earned is a critical element in making those kind of judgments. I'd say all of this is a great learning experience for the kids; not quite the experience they expected when they started the ride, but perhaps even more valuable for teaching that the unexpected happens.

As for the opinions about the value of being in the Guiness book - who the heck died and made all you people the arbiters of what is and what is not worthwhile? You don't care about it? Fine. The kids do, and it is no skin off anyone else's nose. Let 'em try. One way or another, theyll learn something. To read some of these posts, you'd think the OP and her kids think they are each entitled to a lifetime million-dollar-a-year pension out of your pocket.

MNBikeguy

I find it sickening.
This, of all places, should be a venue to celebrate this trip. Some continue to allege issues and motives that are not evidenced, offer "parenting" advice, and quip snide comments.
A perfect place to release their inner jackass.
Tough crowd indeed...

Bekologist

children have died attempting world records.

its a tough world too.

guiness does not to want to encourage child endangerment. This decision on the part of the guiness organization is quite sound. in other arenasa, guiness had already discontinued the youngest pilot category, but it didn't stop tragedy resulting from a youth going for a dubious record.

during this trip of Nancys' family, she may not have heard about an eight year old pilot flying across the US in a dubious record attempt crashing her plane and killing 3. Jessica Dubroff.

Guiness, in a look at child adventuring - the catastrophe of the youngest sailor attempt around the world, the criticisms of the youngest everest climber this last year, jessica dubroff, all these child adventurer endangerments are what may be the impetus for guiness to add to discontinued categories for youth adventurers.

100 percent understandable. guiness does not want to be culpable in child endangerment. adults, they figure are old enough to risk their lives of their own volition, youth, not so much, nancy.

I understand the achievement your kids reached, no small feat. the guiness thing is unfortunate but they are thinking of all the other kids, nancy.