cudak888 

I haven't really mentioned this, but in the years that I've been quiet on BikeForums, I've been at a local university's grant-funded bike education program. Been there for five years now and we have the coolest team you could ever ask for.

This program often offers bike rodeos in the community, but most events have been tied in with bike rides. As such, kids actually have their own bikes on hand. We've been fortunate enough for other local partners to bring their bike fleets in at times too.

However, our current team is 100% in agreement that we need a minimum fleet of kids bikes for our bike rodeos. And while we do have a bike fleet, it is a collection of 2009 Giant Brass 1's...and do I have stories to tell about these.

The Brass 1 is a dirt jumping / youth downhill MTB, and they couldn't be worse suited to the purpose of teaching younger kids how to ride. Ours are the XXS frame, so they barely fit anyone well if you expect them to sit on the saddle. Show me a child with shoulders the width of an adult, a medium-height torso, and tiny legs (but somehow their legs have enough throw for 170mm crankarms), and I'll show you someone who fits this.

That's right, the only person who could ever fit this correctly is Inspector Gadget.

They're pretty much 26" MTB-based freestyle bikes designed to be ridden out of the saddle. Think of them as an MTB-based Big Ripper with less practicality.



This is one of them; since retired as the fork steerer began spinning in the fork crown ( !!!!! ). Critically unsafe.



The rest of the Brass 1's constantly get repaired from the forks getting spun 360 degrees, which stretches all the cables and breaks the SRAM shifters at the adjusters. The derailers get bent from kids dropping them on the drive side. My personal pet peeve are the chainguide rollers. The rollers barely work, make noise, don't really fit around the chainring protector, and their mounting bracket four three tiny set screws to cinch their position to the frame, which usually slip anyway.

Also, the clear plastic chainring protectors aren't durable and crack, leaving a pretty sharp chainring exposed. The pedals are also very grippy, sharp, huge, and help to destroy each bike next to it when they're in storage (after a long day teaching kids, stacking bikes with artful scratch-free precision is not a high priority).



If you haven't realized it by now, I'm not a fan of the Brass 1 at all, especially to teach kids how to ride. I don't know who chose them, or what their rationale was for it, but it doesn't matter now. The choice was terrible and it's time to rectify it.

The new idea is to add bicycles with 16", 20", and 24" wheels to the fleet, and perhaps a few balance bikes. Since onlo many kids can go through our bike rodeos at once, I figure that we only need three of each: Two available for each event, with a third backup in storage, in case one goes down for service. Our bike storage is limited too, so the fleet can't be large.

Simple, right?

Well, I've been wading through the market of potential kids bikes, and I am completely frustrated. First, most of them are just downsized bicycle-shaped objects. Thankfully, bike shaped objects in kids' sizes really aren't that bad, but they're not that great either. Comfortable positioning for someone who's never been on a bike is a major concern of mine, and all the freestyle-inspired BMX designs and flat MTB bars that influence the 20" and 24" bikes couldn't be more ill suited.

Also, I observed the following weaknesses of a generic Wal-Mart level, 16" Hot Wheels kids' bike at our last rodeo - pic of a very similar machine below:

• It used cross-hatching on the seatpost - much like any cheap adult Huffy today - to make up for the weakness of the built-in seatpost clamp and quick release. The seat tube was not pinched, but it took one person standing on the training wheel brackets and another twisting the saddle aggressively just to reset the saddle height. These seatposts are so thin that I'd expect them to bend eventually too.
• The fixed BMX-type bars got in the way of even the smallest kids' knees, even with the saddle at the right height. As a result, most of them didn't steer tightly at the U-turn at the end of our rodeo, and rolled right out of the circle. I'll admit, this was hilarious to watch, but it wasn't helping anything on the educational side
• Even this tiny little 16" bike was geared for speed. I lost count how many kids we literally had to pull through the rodeo from the handlebars, as they didn't have the strength to overcome the gear ratio.
• There's something to be said about The Bike Dad's rant about coasterbrakes - kids aren't always strong enough to apply the coasterbrake when they're old enough to understand what it does. Almost all kids' bikes made today use the same coasterbrake as adult 26" bike-shaped-objects too, FYI. I don't agree entirely that coasters should be eliminated entirely from bicycles used to train kids, but it does stress the importance of having an additional caliper or V-brake.

With this in mind, I started contemplating (with ease of acquisition or simplicity put aside for the moment) what an ideal all-purpose bike rodeo bike would look like.

Personally, I believe any bike that we use should have:

• A step-through frame
• A coasterbrake
• A front caliper brake that works - e.g., a Tektro 800A or V-brakes - not the stamped steel trash that cheap bikes have (these cheap brakes should be banned by US Customs, IMHO)
• A seatpost Q/R that delivers consistent results, with a collar that doesn't slip
• No derailers, IGHs, or doo-dads to break. All singlespeeds
• Folding pedals (so the 16" and 20" bikes can be quickly re-purposed into balance bikes if necessary)
• A sturdy chainguard
• North Road-ish handlebars
• The ability to take extensive abuse and require minimal maintenance
• Quick release training wheels (which, far as I can find, barely exist)
• Solid tires? We haven't had much trouble with tubes...yet, but it could become a pain if the tires lose air every week.

The Linus Lil' Dutchie was one of the bikes that ticked just about all the boxes except the Q/R training wheels, pedals, and front brake. Fair enough; all fixable - and I think the fenders have to come off as they won't survive transport or bike rodeo abuse:


Yet, the Linus is (unsurprisingly) overpriced. Also - and this is my own, personal complaint - I think the brand's marketing is insanely pretentious, artsy-fartsy, and fails to promote equity. Bicycle access to all is an important component of our program, and I'm not seeing it in Linus. I know this means diddly from the POV of anyone at a bike rodeo, but I can't overlook this issue.

I kept looking, but my mind increasingly veered off into C&V territory - practicality to the wind. I started down the rabbit hole and looked at the Raleigh Space Rider and Mounties, and dismissed them due to cottered cranks and relatively large frames.

Then I thought of the good old Schwinn offerings from the '60s and '70s. The mixte-frame 16" Pixie and the various 20" offerings like the Bantam and Hollywood:





This may sound nuts, but I'm thinking that three each of these, judiciously updated, could make for a very reliable fleet. These things tick most of the boxes and are otherwise bomb-proof. They have fantastic kickstands to boot, and re-gearing wouldn't be a big deal either. Part of me would also want swap out the original steel rims for a pair of el-cheapo aluminums in future - just to give the V-brakes something better to bite on, and so nobody finds themselves cleaning rust if any of the bikes happen to get wet.

I know that the seatpost binder clamp would need to be updated with the spin-on Q/R lever from a Schwinn Runabout (or Exerciser), but it'd be workable without modifying the frame. However, I'd probably call on local framebuilder Mike Terraferma to braze on a set of V-brake posts to the forks. No great loss for originality, seeing as these Schwinns don't seem to be at a loss for parts, 40 years on.

Even though I'm aware that my idea is on the complicated side, I also know that we'll probably need these things to last another 10 years, with preferably minor maintenance and no broken parts to fix every month. With the Schwinns in the fleet, they'd probably outlast us.

My one limitation is that I need to provide receipts for all purchases, but that means any thrift store bike is fair game, as would any helpful support from LBS'es. The budget is small, but I'd be building them, so labor costs wouldn't factor in.

Would be interested to hear C&V's thoughts here. Have I missed more viable options? Anyone know of quick-release kids training wheels? I'm all ears...

-Kurt

ThermionicScott 

I had to look up what a bike rodeo was/is, but I think you're on the right track.

Russ Roth

Looking at it from a modern context how are those schwinns not BSO, just cause their old and say schwinn? They;re cheap steel frames just like a BSO, cheap steel wheels that in my experience isn't any stronger then a modern steel wheel and worse then even a basic aluminum, the stems are the cheapest thing possible, the seatposts are cheap metal pipes and the seats aren't any better. I was asked to do a safety inspection./tune up of a new walmart 20" bike. It was nothing to write home about and the caliper brakes won't stop well on the beautifully painted rims, not that they would stop any better on the chrome wonders above. But the 6 year old who got it and just graduated from training wheels had no trouble tooling it around the parking lot and after giving it a complete once over with hubs, BB, headset adjustments, wheel truing agap, stem tightened, I'd sooner stick my kid on that new walmart bike and feel safe about it then put them those schwinns you show. Spokes are old, stretched and worn; will you be replacing them?
Don't know your budget per bike but there are options out there
https://parkcycles.ca/ has thought out kick, 14" and 16" bikes, something like this Cannondale is nice at 20" and isn't poorly geared https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/bik...ku=c51270f10os with an MSRP of 285 maybe an lbs can get you a deal on a couple. For 24" breaking away from gears seems daunting, the C-dale mtb in 24" has a more ideal crank length that lets the seat be lower so the kids feel in control without having their knees come too high causing pressure issues. The 8speed shimano twist shifter is a lot easier to use then the 7sp version for whatever reason, though in either case I just installed a microshift version on a 22 year old trek 220 that is an awesome replacement. Shifts so easily and smoothly the kids have asked for it to replace the shifters they have and at 12.00 a pair I'm going to accommodate them. Nice thing on the 24" is 1x8 so no front shifter to mess with. These are just some examples of newer bikes that will easily do the job and and be better then those Giants and resorting to antique clunkers.

Chris Chicago

That is a smooth riding kids cruiser that will still ride smooth after 40+ years.

cudak888 

What you suggest is fine, if you're spec'ing a bicycle out for your own child, someone you can trust to treat their equipment well. I'm talking about bicycles that have to be bombproof and foolproof enough to survive any kid and the inevitable ham-fisted adults that will wind up handling the bikes as well. Remember, adults, not children, were responsible for spinning the handlebars around on those Giant MTBs, causing the cracked shifter issue.

At any rate, I'd trust the Schwinn to have better tolerances than the Wal-Mart 20" BSOs and to tolerate being thrown (or ridden into) the ground 20 times a day every week without a bent seatstay or rear axle slipped in the dropouts. Also, at least the Schwinn seatpost collar can be replaced. A lot of the current Wal-Mart level kids bikes have stamped steel collars tack welded onto the frame that will deform like an unfilled lug on a cheap '70s roadbike.

In the meantime, we did get three 650B kids track bikes donated, which I was converting earlier this year until COVID hit. Getting 26.6mm seatposts has been a bit of a pain, but they're pretty overbuilt (if shoddily prepped) lugged frames:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ack-bikes.html

-Kurt

wrk101

Old Schwinns kids bikes were nearly indestructible, EF frames much stronger than the crimped crap I see out there. I would be contacting co ops in your general area, both as a source of the bikes and wheels too. Front brakes are definitely a lot more efficient but I have to ask are the kids using them? Brakes they don't use add nothing to braking of course, and just add cost.

Russ Roth

The bikes in the links are what I spec'ed out for my kids and I wouldn't trust them to treat anything well. Kids bikes from a shop are designed to handle being used and abused and handed on and are built to better standards then some nostalgic relics. I've got a 20" 7sp giant that I bought for my middle kid and that he learned to ride without training wheels on and learned to MTB on, he also got into doing ramps and a pump track on it. Every part of the bike has held up superbly and performed with no issues though it is heavier then I'd have liked and I had to change the cranks for shorter, if I had to buy again I'd have bought the C-dale which comes with the right crank for not much more but the Giant lasted 2 years of serious abuse, run into trees, curbs, rocks, been jumped and poorly landed and will be passed to the next in line for what I know will be more abuse and I trust it will hold up just fine.
The other issue that you overlook with these, and the issue of use/abuse/misuse, is the question of liability. Something breaks on a new bike and someone gets hurts and the parents might go after you but their lawyer will want to go after the manufacturer for restitution, something breaks from 40+ years of unknown use and abuse on those bikes and you're the only one they have to look at. The excuse that you thought they would be safer then a modern shop bike isn't going to be a strong one and their lawyer will have no trouble finding shop people who will have have little issue arguing against you.

cudak888 

Only two co-ops within 15 miles of me; the further one is the most likely to have EF stuff kicking about. To be frank, I don't think there will be much call in the next year or two for kids group bike rides though. COVID fears won't disappear like magic, which means parents may be reluctant to let kids use any bikes we provide. That, and we did get some Trek Precalibers since this thread was posted, so the topic is mostly moot (for now).

Nevertheless, from a functional standpoint, it's a mixed bag how the kids react to coasters vs. a lever on the bars. Personally, I wouldn't mind having two identical framesets on hand for an event - one coaster, one caliper brake + freewheel. It'd be interesting to see if kids having trouble on the coaster might do well with the handlebar brake - or if they'll just try shoe-braking and not get it at all. I've seen shoes quite a bit, but the bikes have varied far too much to know whether it is lack of confidence with the coaster or just a knee-jerk reaction where they wouldn't grab a lever if there was one.

The main reason I'd prefer to see lever brakes is because coaster brakes tend to cause problems when you're running a group bike handling course. Some of the kids will start backpedaling immediately after their first pedal stroke, and they'll come to a complete stop. Most of them are already past balance bikes - if you can get them going, their handling skills are usually good - and I really think the coaster is the fly in the ointment.

Then again, I could also be reading into it way too much. Sometimes, I fear the program is also asking too much of the kids at once.

You're describing your middle child as a competent rider; someone who knows their way around a bike. I also find it hard to believe that a bike that has been "run into trees, curbs, rocks, been jumped and poorly landed" for two years hasn't had some sort of derailer incident, which makes it all the more ironic that you're heaping praise on a Giant 1x7 in a thread that was started because of all the problems I've had with a Giant 1x8. (P.S., remember what I said about no derailers?).

Have you ever held a Schwinn electroforged frame in your hands? They're time proven to be some of the most overbuilt bike frames ever constructed. They're the loving butt of almost every Schwinn durability joke, as it's next to impossible to bend one up - much less break one - unless you run it over with a car (and I'm referring to the rear triangle. Not worth trying to drive over the main triangle). In fact, I think you're the very first person I've ever heard argue that a modern anything is stronger than an electroforged frame.

I might add that the Bantams are literally scaled-down versions of Schwinn's 26" balloon tire and middleweight cruisers - using the same exact tubing and dropouts.

Now you're making me want to crash test Schwinn Varsities into brick walls.

I will say this though: I don't have to blindly accept that if a bike comes in a box and is mass produced, it is somehow better. I also think your theoretical argument about liability (FYI, program's liability, not mine) stinks. It's never right to argue that it's better for a kid to be hurt and be legally secure than to spend a bit more time and thought to prevent the injury in the first place.

-Kurt

Russ Roth

All the brands make a 20" single speed, and while my son ended up very competent it was learning on his 20" bike. I did need to replace the rear derailleur one time but not for reasons you'd necessarily run into, the der pulleys seized up completely from mud, it took a lot of abuse.
I have held plenty of those Schwinn frames, I worked for 5 years in a schwinn designed and built shop, and after all that time I can't share your perspective on those quality of bikes; though I'd happily help you smash several into a brick wall.
You might not like my discussion on liability but it's true. Your trying to argue that 40yo BSO are as good if not better than entry level bike shop bikes and it isn't true. Modern aluminum wheels are better, the tire options are better, the threadless stem is better and a modern quill is better than the seamed junk stem those things came with. The hand brakes will work, new bikes won't have a 22.2mm rod of scrap as an excuse for a seatpost. Just cause the frame is heavy enough to serve as gas pipe and over built enough to make a great boat anchor doesn't make it better for your purpose.
This is your thread, and you'll do what you will, you asked opinions and I've told you multiple reasons I believe your idea to be a bad one. At this point I've got nothing more to add, good luck whatever you choose.

cudak888 

Kindly explain the quality issues you experienced. I'm genuinely curious.

FYI, my sentiment towards adult electroforged frames for adults isn't particularly rosy either, but that's only because I'm of the school that believes - for an adult - they're absolute overkill for what they're trying to accomplish and not very refined. But as a starting point for a kids bike that's going to be treated like garbage...perfect.

You didn't read one thing I said about modernization, did you? Oh well, never mind. Might have to build a proof of concept and throw it off the side of a 20 story building to get my point across.

But please tell me all the superiority of threadless stems, given that this thread was instigated by the very real and very dangerous failure of a threadless steerer tube.

That seatpost is 20.7mm or 13/16" - and I'll admit, it's strange, but they're stout and steel; they'll bend before they break.

FYI, I went looking for a decent 400mm aluminum 28.6mm seatpost recently, and there were enough failures of Kalloy Unos and Origin 8 posts that I feel obligated to run a $140 Thompson.

-Kurt

P.S.: I told wrk101 that we bought modern Trek Precalibers since this thread was posted...in March of last year.