rippo

word!

i wonder - and this is completely rhetorical because most people would never admit, even to themselves, that this was true - how much of that influences our thinking in bike buying. how many people choose to buy Campy stuff because Shimano is a japanese company? not that they have anything against japanese people of course, just that italians know bikes and asians don't...is that the thinking? do people think "i don't want to buy a Specialized bike (which is what i have) because the frames are secretly put together by taiwanese?" i know that the boutique manufacturers really try to push the "little company vs. big overseas corporation" marketing angle. coupled with some closet racism on the part of the buyer and it's a winning combination.

yeah i understand that curve well. i'm in the music business and deal with equipment issues all the time. to get twice the performance you have to spend ten times as much (or more likely two hundred times as much).

ok i think my question about "what's the point of a $3500 frame" was off the mark. i know that quality costs money. i guess what i should have asked is, how do you know you're getting your money's worth? my Specialized Allez apparently has generic aluminum in it...fair enough. but if i spent another $2k, how would i know i was getting $2k, or even $1k, worth of improvement? it is after all just a bunch of tubes stuck together in a bicycle shape! would the improvement be noticeable to a new rider like me?

shokhead

Made here or there,arent they all following the same spec's?The welds on the fuji look just as good as the cd as the felt as the cervelo.Two of the same bikes,one made here and you can get it for $2000 or made in asia for $1200.If you dont race and just ride,which one do you get?

goose

Yeah, but the 'yota is a much better built car for much less money.



But seriously-

Most people (not necessarily implying anyone in this thread, or at this forum for that matter), are buying not for themselves, but for the image they would like to project. If I own the biggest, best or most expensive, it must be because I (unlike the common poser) need the item, whereas Joe Schmuck could get by with much less.

This seems (at least to me) to be true in every arena of life, from cars, to bikes, to clothes, etc. People generally have an extremely high opinion of themselves.

rippo

i think we're all a little guilty of buying stuff to impress. or at the bottom end of the scale, buying stuff that we hope people won't laugh at us for.

the car comparision ockey made seems a bit off the mark, only because whole cars are way more complicated than bike frames. you merely have to sit in a BMW and know it's going to cost more than the toyota. (whether it's value-for-money is another issue entirely) but with a frame, how do you know? gross extremes of cost aside...even a rookie like me could probably tell the difference between a $300 frame and a $5000 frame.

so take shokhead's example of a $2k frame vs a $1200 frame. if they were bare, unpainted aluminum, could any of us tell the difference? could i tell the difference? would they look any different? or is the ride going to be different? if so, how subtle is it? or is it "just" a reliability/durability issue?

basically, how do you know you're not fooling yourself with the paint job? having the word "Litespeed" painted on your bike can make it feel a whole lot faster than "Schwinn"...but is that feeling legit?

shokhead

Thats kinda the same as after i wash my car,well you know,its always way faster,a good wash is worth at least 25 hp.LOL.Oh,i'll take the litespeed.

firebolt

Yeah, a better comparison would be with diamond. If you are given two diamonds, would you be able to tell which one cost twice as much? Not if you understand the cut, reflection, colors, and all those crap debeers wants you to believe. Will you be twice as pretty if you wear a $2000 diamond ring compared to a $1000 diamond ring? Well, it may make you "feel" prettier . Same thing with expensive wine, sound systems, and all the other stuff rich folks crave. Significantly more money for insignificant increase in real value.

The moral of the story: instead of buying a 10 grand sound system, use the money for a good piano lesson.

shokhead

Sorry,not with sound systems.You really get what you pay for.

firebolt

Yes, if you go from $1K to $10K, but not from $10K to $20K. IMHO.
Just like going from Sora to 105, it's worth it. But from 105 to Dura-ace? Unless you are really-really good, you won't feel much of a difference.

rippo

in the cycling world, they're called "weight weenies". in the audio world, they're called "golden ears". while money can buy you quality, it's no guarantee. i find the claims of both groups of people highly suspect in many cases. i'm in the music business and i deal with these sorts of claims pretty regularly. using oxygen-free cables on your speakers results in as noticeable an improvement as does using a carbon comp water bottle holder. no offense, shokhead.

but certainly, sometimes it makes sense. paying $1000 instead of $100 for speakers, buying 105's rather than Tiagra/Sora (i'm guessing...as my bike has a T/S combo and i wouldn't know any better).

shokhead

Thats what i'm talking about.$100 set of speakers will sound different then $1000 set and different cable,only a dog will notice.Bikes,difference between 105 and ultegra crank,same as cable.1900g wheelset and a 1200g wheelset,you'll know.

shokhead

Does all this mean if i have speakers on my bike i'll win thr tdf?LOL

ShinyBaldy

Don't want to be nikpicky - but Giant is a Taiwanese company. Most of Giant's production remains in Taiwan - and Giant isn't exactly a crappy producer either, they have excellent welding and carbon fibre frames.

Patriot

This briings up an interesting story, which I actually did some research on.

I recently purchased a Pedal Force frame, but these frames are made outside the USA, and I had no idea where they were made. Some guys on the forums said that they were probably made by Martec in Taiwan. So I did some research...

I asked the Pedal Force seller, "Who makes these frames?" He said "Pedal Force." I asked "where are they made?" He couldn't tell me because of licensing agreements. But he did say, "I will tell you this, though a slightly differant shape, they have very similar geometry to LOOK cf frames, HINT, HINT."

So, I looked on the LOOK website for info, and of course nothing about where LOOK frames are really made. Apparently, some of there stuff is made by them, some contracted out to someone else. hmmm..........

I contacted Pedal Force again. I again mentioned to him that alot of guys say they are made in Taiwan, by Martec. He laughed and said, "NO. But, they are made somewhere in Asia."

That made a light go on upstairs. That means not all LOOK stuff is made by LOOK.

So where is it made?

I did several hours more research on the net, did some worldwide business searches, and even made a few 1-800 phone calls just out of curiosity.

I finally found something on a web business search in Asia. I found a small company that makes carbon fiber bicycle frames amongst other space aged products made of composite materials....

The company was called.... Pedal Force!!! Just like the guy told me.

A very small and obscure factory, located in "Singapore", of all places. They actually make the Pedal Force monocoque frame with their own name on them. And yes, they are much less expensive than most others, because they are not flashy, nor do they advertise. They are basically a blank, with a plain matte finish, or some other plain color finish.

And, apparently, they make frames for other bicycle companies as well. Gee...

I wonder who?

forum*rider

how do you like the frame? I'm assuming that it's the one you painted yourself and named "trinity"(or something like that....)

Comparable to some of the name-brand CF frames out there? Ex. Look, Specialized, Giant, etc.

Patriot

Well, since it basically was just a plain blank, it took a bit of prep work to smooth out all the little tiny spots where there was imperfections (from the epoxy), but otherwise it is a pretty nice frame. Nothing real flashy, but extremely functional. The one I got says it weighs 1306g. But, I weighed it myself on two differant small scales, and it actually weighs in at 1200-1250g between the two.

As far as the Pedal force decal that came with it goes. I figure they won't mind me giving it my own name, as with all honesty, the Pedal Force decal was really cheesy. I think they just threw it on there for the heck of it, assuming most guys would probably remove it, as it isn't clear coated to seal it on there.

As far as comparing it to other frames, I would have to say it is in fact comparable as far as function goes. Very stiff, and pretty darn light. I know Orbea Orca frames weigh a little less. The new LOOK 486 is also really nice design. They seem to have a more flashy and asthetically pleasing shape compared to the one I got, but the geometry is an almost exact match to the LOOK frames.

It is a semi-compact frame. Not very heavily sloped top tube, but sloped just a little for the 58cm frame.

The big differance, is that it really is nowhere near as pretty, as I my painting skills are good, but nowhere near the level you get with an Orbea Orca. But, for being done in my garage without a paint-booth, it turned out pretty good. The color layout on mine is good, but the smoothness is lacking due to micro-hairs and dust etc. But, that has nothing to do with what's underneath.

Lectron

I’m sure LOOK don’t produce their own frames as I also know very few frame makes do.
I think my Airborne is made by https://www.ti-bicycle.com/gywm/gywm-e.htm and same goes with at least quite a few of the Litespeed frames. So ?
Their good and cheap.
They are all ordered by spec. from a good factory also delivering to big industry with high demands to the quality.
A friend of mine who runs a LBS visited the factory making the LOOK frames. He was gonna have some forks made for his own brand of bikes (He uses a lot of Scandium and Kinesium). They also made the nose part for the JumboJet.
My clue where my Specialized is made. Says made in USA, but I could be made in USA and still be produced in Taiwan.
The K2 mod 5 made of Columbus tubing **********? I don’t know and I don’t care.
As long as it’s not slave work or something like that. (Are we thinking of any Mexican factory in particular ??)

Patriot

Yeah, as long as they aren't forced at gunpoint to work 16hrs a day for practically nothing.

But, the Airborne is in fact, one sweet frame.

Gotta love those Viking bars too!

Lectron

Hey. I'm from Norway, meaning I am a Viking. Of course I needed a Viking bar.

That was a very good price on that USE combo !! Great stuff. Their good !
I was considring the USE integrated, but but just fell for that oversized Viking.
Really goes good to the bike, and I wanted an "a stiff as possible" handlebar/stem.

See you have a mongoose. Guess who, together with TST among others,
where involved in that "one Mexican factory in particular"
Why Cambriabike and others can sell out TST frames for close to nothing I don't know,
but I think it's a part of the same story.
It does not remove the fact that it's good frames, but I feel sorry for what money can do
to some people. But this is not a forum for politics.

Lectron

With sound systems you do get what you pay for !!!!
Just keep in mind that the price/quality graph is exponetial.

I have a +300lbs $20000 stereo (Not incl. surround & video) and I can promisse that even a musichater could tell the soundquallity is great.
But yes I know. This is a bike forum

Here is a picture of Lectron

glevii

Definition of an "Audiophile". Somebody who claims to be able to hear something 99.99999% of the world's population can't. Not picking on you Lectron, because I'm very guilty of the same thing. I have a stupid amount of money put into my car audio.

The point being though, if you have no frame of reference for something, there's not really any way to know the difference between two items. If you'd never seen a car before, would you really know the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus? If you've never played guitar, would you really be able to tell the difference between how a PRS plays and Squire plays? So, that being said, no, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two frames. As long as it's well made, then who cares who made it.

53-11 alltheway

This is true for all practical purposes.....After 105 improvements in performance get harder to detect (exception would be DA shifters are noticeably nicer).....that's why Shimano and Campy resort to making things such as 180mm cranks exclusive to the top group only (so people will enticed to get the DA or Record because they can get a noticeable improvement such as the longer cranks.)

A Steel 105 bike makes a great training bike for many reasons....You don't have to stress about scratching it up, worrying about it crashing, plus 9 speed cassettes and chains are cheap. In short you ride it and don't baby it...you'll think to yourself if the weather is bad, "who cares about this bike getting dirty...my training is more important."

JBBOOKS

Is any production component hand welded any longer or are they machine (robot) welded?

Patriot

Not sure about the welding of framework, but I do know that virtually every carbon component and frame requires hand layup and assembly. CNC machining of cf parts prior to assembly is one part where robotic machines are used.
Most frames though, have hand layup of the sections, and are then glued together with lugs etc. in a jig to make them straight.
Even monocoque and one piece bladder systems require hand layup prior to forming and baking of the cf.
I am sure even these areas will be automated eventually.

halfspeed

How about sterling silver and rubies? https://www.bohemianbicycles.com/photo_gallery_6.htm

Chef23

I have to disagree with the diamond analogy. When you spend more on a diamond unless you get ripped off there is a visable difference in appearance. You may not be twice as pretty with a $2K diamond vs a $1K diamond but you will definitely see the difference in the stone. Whether you care about the difference is a different question.