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Drop Bar Reach Positioning for Touring

Old 10-29-19, 05:32 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Sorry for the misunderstanding! I means where is this? Those are some beautiful old trees. Some parts of the US are probably old enough to grow them, but OTOH that's a paved path and paving hasn't been as popular here as it is in Europe. But you know . . . me and wife on bike there!
Ha, that's funny.
It's in France, along the eurovelo 6 route.
Look it up, it's a really nice route. We biked it across France, from the Atlantic to Switzerland. Follows la Loire river, some canal systems, and some other river I can't recall name of.
Ample campgrounds, hotels, b and b's.
Wonderful wonderful trip.
Mostly flat too.
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Old 10-29-19, 06:00 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
It is what works for you.

Reach and bar height are related, change one and you need to change the other.

...
Yeah. In fact, for me these are related as being on a line running forward and up at about 30 degrees from horizontal. Actually the very convenient "slope" of 2 cm horizontal to 1 cm in line with the headtube and steerer. So (again, for me) a stem 2 cm longer and 1 cm spacer higher gives me virtually the same position and comfort level. (My back angle, shoulder position and arm bend do not change, just the angle of my arm.

Now, I ride a near race position. I used to race and hate going upwind sitting up with my skinny climbers legs and also am too old to ride with a 90 degree bend in my arms for hours to get that low position. If you aspire to more like the 45 degree leans of the photos above, you will be looking at a steeper line for your bars than what I use.

All my bikes give me near identical seat and shoulder positions. My handlebars vary on that line several inches. (I do have to take note. I have near missed my handlebars after swapping bikes coming down from no-hands!) But once I've got that straight, they are all equally comfortable but with slightly different flavors. The long reach fix gear is great upwind (and with a fairing so very good for windy winter commuting). My other fix gear has bars considerably closer and lower. Feels like a race bike. That suits its nature and I love it.

Knowing where that line is (in relation to the bottom bracket) means I can quickly see if I can get a good position with a potential bike using standard stems. I have really long arms, so that is not a given. On many bikes I need radical stems to get my bars on that line. (I've had made a 155, a 175 and two 180s over the years. Love the Nitto Pearls where the 13 is a Cinelli 140.)
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Old 10-29-19, 07:02 PM
  #28  
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Mr prop fellow. Wow, 175,180. That's something.
I have a 50 or a 60 on my troll. Works great and handles well too!
Neat how different ways and different bikes and different bikes can all work out.
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Old 10-29-19, 07:23 PM
  #29  
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I finally remembered where someone had taken a photo of me from the side so you could see forward lean angle. I even forced a smile for the camera.



In the above photo, I was just a hair more upright than usual, my hands were on the tops of the bars near the stem, not on the hoods or drops.

Photo below on the hoods, but unfortunately you can't see the lean angle very well.

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Old 10-29-19, 08:32 PM
  #30  
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Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net

Here's a really useful tool to help determine which stem might work best for your situation.
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Old 10-29-19, 08:38 PM
  #31  
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Hey, tmsn
Where was that lower shot taken, the 3/4 shot?
Beautiful open landscape. I love stuff like that.
Enquiring Minds want to know, well mine anyway.
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Old 10-30-19, 09:23 AM
  #32  
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David, that spot looks familiar


Last edited by Doug64; 10-30-19 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 10-30-19, 10:04 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by djb
Hey, tmsn
Where was that lower shot taken, the 3/4 shot?
Beautiful open landscape. I love stuff like that.
Enquiring Minds want to know, well mine anyway.
I think that was about 1/3 or 1/4 of the distance from Gullfoss to Hveravellir on F35. On the Iceland airphoto that would be in between 06-20 and 0621+22 which are plotted. Those numbers are the dates (MM-DD) of my campsites, I started out from a campground near Geysir that morning.



I am guessing i was pretty close to the top of the big steep hill on the elevation profile when i took the photo.

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Old 10-30-19, 02:54 PM
  #34  
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thanks msn, I kinda figured it was that trip.
Ive never done such a remote trip as that, but I certainly do like wide open spots like that.

maybe one day....
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Old 10-30-19, 04:21 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by djb
thanks msn, I kinda figured it was that trip.
Ive never done such a remote trip as that, but I certainly do like wide open spots like that.

maybe one day....
Bring all the spares you might need.

- At Gullfoss I met an Italian, he was thinking about turning around because he discovered that his patch kit glue tube was hard, thus his spare tube meant if he had a second flat he would be immobilized until someone could carry him out. I had self adhesive Zefal patch kit, gave him two patches, he thanked me profusely and decided to keep going. Hours later i had stopped for lunch with that fantastic view, then he came riding up the hill behind me. We both took photos of each other with that marvelous background.

- And in the middle of the interior where you are far from anything, a Pole in the campground had run out of spare rack bolts so he had wrapped tape around all of his and his wifes rack bolts so if they unthreaded, they could not come out completely. With that in mind, my last tour I brought a small bottle of threadlocker along, but I have to remove my racks on my S&S bike to pack it, so it makes sense to bring some along.

- And met a Brit that had broken his 9 speed chain so many times his chain was getting pretty short and he was losing gears. I gave him an 8 speed quick link and said I did not know if it would work, suggested he not try it unless he was stranded on the side of the road.

- I had caught a rock in my rear wheel, jammed it between the frame and a spoke, put a ding in one spoke. Fortunately all I had to do was true up the wheel, I had spare spokes and nipples so if I needed them, I could deal with it. But I was too lazy to pull the tire and rim tape off the wheel. Instead replaced the spoke at home later.

You really do not want to have a mechanical in a place like that.

I had over two weeks of food on the bike when I went in there. That is a lot of weight and volume.
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Old 10-30-19, 05:24 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Bring all the spares you might need.

- At Gullfoss I met an Italian, he was thinking about turning around because he discovered that his patch kit glue tube was hard, thus his spare tube meant if he had a second flat he would be immobilized until someone could carry him out. I had self adhesive Zefal patch kit, gave him two patches, he thanked me profusely and decided to keep going. Hours later i had stopped for lunch with that fantastic view, then he came riding up the hill behind me. We both took photos of each other with that marvelous background.

- And in the middle of the interior where you are far from anything, a Pole in the campground had run out of spare rack bolts so he had wrapped tape around all of his and his wifes rack bolts so if they unthreaded, they could not come out completely. With that in mind, my last tour I brought a small bottle of threadlocker along, but I have to remove my racks on my S&S bike to pack it, so it makes sense to bring some along.

- And met a Brit that had broken his 9 speed chain so many times his chain was getting pretty short and he was losing gears. I gave him an 8 speed quick link and said I did not know if it would work, suggested he not try it unless he was stranded on the side of the road.

- I had caught a rock in my rear wheel, jammed it between the frame and a spoke, put a ding in one spoke. Fortunately all I had to do was true up the wheel, I had spare spokes and nipples so if I needed them, I could deal with it. But I was too lazy to pull the tire and rim tape off the wheel. Instead replaced the spoke at home later.

You really do not want to have a mechanical in a place like that.

I had over two weeks of food on the bike when I went in there. That is a lot of weight and volume.
I hear you.
For the latin american trips, I took loads and loads of patches, and a large glue tube, and a newly bought small one that I could feel was good, expecting to have thorn bad luck areas, but never had a flat on both trips....but yes, important to think of all the possibilities of this and that and that and this for your sort of trip.
Cant imagine how heavy the bike was at first with all that food.

and yes, I'd want to overall the bike well in advance, to ride it a lot before a trip like that to really shakedown stuff.
I generally check rack bolts and whatnot every bunch of days, more at first and then once weekly with bike clean day on a day off, but could see that wider tires and daily checks of stuff that could be shaken loose would be prudent. To me its so important to know how to and to do all ones own mechanical stuff, so that you are intimately aware of all the bits and bobs on your bike, to hear new sounds and anything that will give you a heads up before stuff gets more serious.

pretty neat trip again.
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Old 10-30-19, 06:44 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by djb
... To me its so important to know how to and to do all ones own mechanical stuff, so that you are intimately aware of all the bits and bobs on your bike, to hear new sounds and anything that will give you a heads up before stuff gets more serious.
....
Yeah, I built up my touring bikes, bought the spokes from one place, hubs from another, rims from another, nipples from another, etc. If you have to take something apart, easier to put it together again if you have done it before.

Had to replace a freehub this past summer, never did that before. Gained one more skill.
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Old 10-30-19, 08:09 PM
  #38  
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I agree. I took my troll apart after I got it , treated the inside of frame, then reassembled and regreased everything. Learned about outboard bb's, learned about the disc brakes. Still basic on wheel spoke stuff, but again, I certainly agree it's a plus knowing having already put things together etc.

Still haven't done a free hub yet...
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Old 10-30-19, 09:20 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jambon
Hi all,

My question , is there any method or ballpark measurement to decide what reach or stem length to go for on a touring bike?

There is a lot of fit advice out there for racing type road positions , they seem to have a few general rules around bike fit but no so much for more relaxed touring.

Is it just a case of trying different stems and heights on the steerer until you find what works for you ?

for example this guys set up seems very very upright to me , while on the other hand I have seen people tour in slammed racing positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8LHdUMtCMg&t=19s

If anyone has any side on pictures of themselves on their drop bar touring bikes that they would share then I could get an idea of what that psoition looks like compared to a racing position.

Thanks ,

J

Best thing to do is find a good fitter, ideally one that is doing a dynamic fit (so like Retül which uses 3d motion capture) and go from there. There is no specific generic fit for people it really comes down to having someone assess you who knows what they are doing. A fit is not just for people who race it is for everyone to get comfortable on their rides and it isn't just a minor adjustment of seatpost height and maybe a stem suggestion. It should go through your whole position and have a physical assessment as well and plenty of conversation with the fitter about your riding and everything going on. Be honest with them, you don't need to impress anyone you just need to be comfortable.

You can go out and fudge around and maybe you might get kinda close, maybe? However a fitter will be a lot more exacting and I can say from getting a fit my road bike is way more comfortable then I ever imagined it could be and once I get my Dynamo set up finished I will have him set up the fit on that and add some pedal extenders to get me in a more optimal position. My first ride home on my road bike after the fit was amazing and all the rides since have been so much better. Finding the right equipment and positioning to make you the most comfortable is so key and I believe everyone who rides any sort of bike regularly (or wishes to) should get a proper fit by a capable fitter. The money spent is well worth it.

I will also say it was so neat changing different positions on the fit bike on the fly and being able to see the data and motion capture on screen and have him explain everything. It was something that I couldn't get doing it on my own and looking at the data from my bike initially to now it has changed quite a bit but all for the better.
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Old 10-30-19, 11:14 PM
  #40  
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I don't quite understand the purpose of the discussion. If you use drop bars, are they not dual position? Meaning when riding the top bars you have a more upright position, then when you want to drop down, you go to the lower bars?
I mean, I see so many members here talking about drop bars only for touring and so on, yet most comments here refer only to the top position. Kind of makes me believe that most people use drop bars because that is what touring bikes should have, yet never use the lower position.
Each to their own, but I like to see the logic in things
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Old 10-31-19, 02:56 AM
  #41  
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Four positions for me, and why I use prefer drop bars

-hoods
-corner ish of where bend turns into the the tops, hands still in same directional position like on hoods
- tops, usually for climbing hard, and a switchup position occasionally
-drops, which on my bikes are very useable

All positions change arm and neck and back muscle positions, which is crucial to not being stiff and sore over time.

Throw in regular little bum and everything breaks, take a photo, have a snack, take a pee etc and it all works out.

That's my recipe
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Old 10-31-19, 04:01 AM
  #42  
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Work your way through the free faq section of www.stevehoggbikefitting.com and work it out for yourself.
I know Steve usually recommends bars with a short reach and shallow drop like 3T Superergo or Zipp's SL70 range
We have the Superergo on all our bikes
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Old 10-31-19, 05:19 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by djb
I agree. I took my troll apart after I got it , treated the inside of frame, then reassembled and regreased everything. Learned about outboard bb's, learned about the disc brakes. Still basic on wheel spoke stuff, but again, I certainly agree it's a plus knowing having already put things together etc.

Still haven't done a free hub yet...
I bought a used wheel to have a second wheel for one of my bikes so I could have a fast set of wheels and a touring set. The used wheel I pretty soon realized had a bum freehub. Found the same hub as new old stock on Ebay was cheaper than the replacement freehub, bought that and robbed the freehub off of it, plus I now have a spare axle, cones and bearings. I do not recall if I mostly relied on Youtube or Sheldon Brown for the knowledge I needed to replace the freehub, but probably a combination of both.

If you ever decide to build a wheel, Sheldon I think put together a great piece on that several years ago. I worked in a bike shop in the 70s, was not great at building wheels, but I had built some. Then decades later when I was building up a new bike and had forgotten almost all that I had previously known about wheel building, I found the Sheldon Brown piece gave me more knowledge than I had known in the 70s when I had built wheels before.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

I find the hardest part is getting an accurate rim diameter to calculate spoke length. I used to buy spokes from a bike shop that I could take the rim and hub into, they calculated teh length that I needed, but that bike shop moved out of town so I had to start coming up with rim diameters on my own. Several years ago I had a rim that listed a different diameter on the rim than the manufacturer website, often there is bad info out there.

Lots of patience is needed the first few times. Plan on several hours.
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Old 10-31-19, 07:24 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by MarcusT
I don't quite understand the purpose of the discussion. If you use drop bars, are they not dual position? Meaning when riding the top bars you have a more upright position, then when you want to drop down, you go to the lower bars?
I think the bike needs to be optimized for the most used position which for me is on the hoods with attention given to the other positions based on how much they are used.

By the way, yes I do use the drops in some situations, but often when I want to go lower I bend my elbows more and ride with my forearms parallel to the ground instead.
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Old 10-31-19, 08:35 AM
  #45  
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Tourist, Ive transfered rims once, switched over a new rim to a rear rim that had the same rim dimensions, but still had someone else do the final spoke tensioning.
One day, one day...
but thanks for the tips.
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Old 10-31-19, 10:11 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I find the hardest part is getting an accurate rim diameter to calculate spoke length. I used to buy spokes from a bike shop that I could take the rim and hub into, they calculated teh length that I needed, but that bike shop moved out of town so I had to start coming up with rim diameters on my own. Several years ago I had a rim that listed a different diameter on the rim than the manufacturer website, often there is bad info out there.
Lots is made of the effective rm diameter and its inaccuracy but I’ve built lots of wheels over the years and never found the rim diameters to be inaccurate. The manufacturers values are accurate and valid. I’ve ordered rims and spokes based on on-line spoke calculators without even measuring the rim and never had problems with spoke length. Considering that the spoke length may be off by 1 to 2 mm due to the spokes that are available, it’s not a hypercritical measurement anyway. It was more important back in the days of single wall rims but with modern double wall rims there is more room for spokes to be a little longer than optimal.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Lots of patience is needed the first few times. Plan on several hours.
I agree. That said, I find that people in my wheel building classes have the most trouble with lacing. I have them lace a wheel in the first class (of two) and then send them home with that wheel to practice by taking it apart and putting it back together. If they practice (often a big “if”), they will often return with a wheel that has been laced wrong in some manner. I give them clear, well illustrated instructions but they often have trouble with translating the written instructions to the physical object. Most of the time, it comes down to not counting correctly.

On the other hand, tension and true seem to be very easy to grasp. My class is 4 hours long over 2 days and lacing will take at least 2 hours and often longer. Tensioning and truing is usually done in about an hour.
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Old 11-01-19, 12:42 PM
  #47  
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Thanks for the replies and photographs, all very helpful. Here is my position on the bike , I am 6'2 , very long in the leg , short torso and longish arms. bike has a 58cm top tube , set up with 35 degree stem and saddle fully back in the rails. This feels comfortable but as someone pointed out above it could be a case where I have adjusted to a poor position. If anything it feels a little on the too casual side.





Thank
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Old 11-01-19, 03:43 PM
  #48  
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If that were me, my sitbones would hotspot, my lumbar would tire very quickly & the taint pressure would be a doozey.

Unknown is the knee/pedal axle relationship. Generally, as a rule of thumb the pedal axle should be directly under the kneecap. Of, course rules of thumbs are a starting point. But the general idea is to not be too far forward or aft in relation to how you pedal. All sorts of complications can arise. Pressure behind the kneecap being the worst IMO. (For my own personel self, I hang a plumb-bob from that hollow/recessed area just under and outboard my kneecap at the top of my shinbone)

After establishing the proper seat to pedal relationship for best fitment to your legs, then saddle to handlebars relationship can be sorted.

I think we're puting the proverbial cart before the horse here. Reach & stack come next, not first.

A picture in not black attire with the crank arms horizontal would help. From there we could also see hip angle.
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Old 11-01-19, 03:51 PM
  #49  
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boy, it must be hard finding a helmet that fits properly (I know, dont quit my day job!)

really though, the only way to know how a bit more stretched out is to change the stem and ride with it for a while. Us internet goofs can only make suggestions, and again, this is why Im sure all of us have extra stems in boxes and stuff....
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Old 11-08-19, 06:06 PM
  #50  
ppoollppoo
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Go for a professional fitting - I am going through some fitment issues on my bike right now that probably could have been avoided if I'd gone with a pro.
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