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27x1 rim won't hold tire

Old 03-28-19, 09:03 AM
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27x1 rim won't hold tire

Arraya 27x1 rim, no bead hook, Panracer Pasella 27x1 1/4", front rim holds tire, rear doesn't. Built up a bike for my nephew, original rims on the Nishiki International but as new(not a scratch or pad mark on them). Pressure @ 80lbs, nephew picked up the bike, a few days later he pumped the tires up, his gauge said 80, short ride, parked bike in sun, five mins and the tire blew. Brought it to me, I thought he must have a bad gauge and overinflated, put in new tube, air @80, we put the bike in full sun, went for a ride with him using one of my loaner bikes, returned and the tire blew off again. Odd the front is holding, both have new Velox rim tape, maybe that tape is too thick, maybe a thinner tape will allow the tire to seat a little deeper, or maybe that tire size is a bit too big(doubt it). Thoughts please.

Thanks,
Brian
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Old 03-28-19, 09:19 AM
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80 psi is the problem. My memory is that alloy rims with no bead hook should run 70 psi or less - which in actuality should be just fine and should give a smooth, plush and surprisingly fast ride. I've run these tires on Weinmann, Araya and old Ambrosio straight-walled 27-in rims at 70 psi with no trouble, as well as Kenda and Cheng Shins - again, at 70 psi or less. All of those tires are rated for 90 psi on the sidewall, but that is with a hooked rim. I learned that lesson the hard way back in the 70s trying to get Michelin Elan 27 x 1s to work at their advertised 90 psi on the old basic Weinmann alloy rims. It would hold for a little bit, then bang.
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Old 03-28-19, 09:49 AM
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yea the old steel bead gumwalls were not high pressure tires.. better if they're hard to put on, than easy..

buy a hook bead rim set and upgrade the wheels..
might as well go 700c in the process.. brake shoes go 4 mm lower on the brake arms ?



.....
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Old 03-28-19, 10:02 AM
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+1 run 'em at 70. Plenty of pressure. 70 won't feel "mushy".
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Old 03-28-19, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by calstar
Arraya 27x1 rim, no bead hook, Panracer Pasella 27x1 1/4", front rim holds tire, rear doesn't. Built up a bike for my nephew, original rims on the Nishiki International but as new(not a scratch or pad mark on them). Pressure @ 80lbs, nephew picked up the bike, a few days later he pumped the tires up, his gauge said 80, short ride, parked bike in sun, five mins and the tire blew. Brought it to me, I thought he must have a bad gauge and overinflated, put in new tube, air @80, we put the bike in full sun, went for a ride with him using one of my loaner bikes, returned and the tire blew off again. Odd the front is holding, both have new Velox rim tape, maybe that tape is too thick, maybe a thinner tape will allow the tire to seat a little deeper, or maybe that tire size is a bit too big(doubt it). Thoughts please.

Thanks,
Brian
Does your rim tape span all the way from one inner wall to the other? If not, consider buying wider tape and possibly using an extra layer. A tighter-fitting tire will be less likely to blow off.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:15 AM
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Hopefully the >>tire<< you're using is wire bead and NOT foldable / Kevlar.

I have a few bikes with non-hooked rims, use wire bead tires and often run at 80psi - never an issue.
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Old 03-28-19, 10:24 AM
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Try narrower rim tape, not wider. Wider rim tape will interfere with setting the bead. Been there, done that, had exactly the same situation -- tire blew off, tube shredded.

The usual warning sign is the tire won't seat evenly all around as it's pumped up -- turn the mounted tire and inspect both sides carefully. If there's any hop or unevenness the bead hasn't seated properly, possibly due to rim tape that's too wide or too thick.

Now I use Velox or similar cloth rim tape just wide enough to cover the spoke nipple holes without covering the shoulder between the rim floor and wall.

I've occasionally used thicker rim tape to prevent tubes from extruding into deeper spoke nipple holes in double wall rims, but usually a single strip of cloth tape will provide enough support. But generally the cloth tape shouldn't be too wide..
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Old 03-28-19, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by calstar
Arraya 27x1 rim, no bead hook, Panracer Pasella 27x1 1/4", front rim holds tire, rear doesn't.
Same Araya rim front and rear? I'd swap tires; put the front one on the back rim and the back one on the front rim and see if the same thing happens. That way you would get a better indication of whether the problem is in the tire or the rim.
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Old 03-28-19, 11:22 AM
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It's somewhat of a myth that 90 psi could not be run in the old days of non hooked rims. It was very common and the default standard pressure for quality clinchers. I remember keeping my tires to 90 on my old Super Mirage with Weinman concaves (no hooks). I even remember people running Specialized Turbos at 100 on unhooked rims.

It's true however that Michelin Elans were finicky and rarely could take the rated pressure. I still have nightmares about those things popping off in my earliest LBS days. We would pump very very slowly, listening for the tell tale creaking sound they made just before blowing. Usually you could let the air out in time. Nationals (early panaracer) were my favorite clincher of the time.

RE the OP, some combos just don't work. It may be that this one just doesn't work to 90 psi. Smooth wall rims can be tricky. Do check the things people have mentioned: too wide rim tape can cause this. As alway, be careful not to get the tube stuck under the bead.
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Old 03-28-19, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat
Try narrower rim tape, not wider. Wider rim tape will interfere with setting the bead. Been there, done that, had exactly the same situation -- tire blew off, tube shredded.

The usual warning sign is the tire won't seat evenly all around as it's pumped up -- turn the mounted tire and inspect both sides carefully. If there's any hop or unevenness the bead hasn't seated properly, possibly due to rim tape that's too wide or too thick.

Now I use Velox or similar cloth rim tape just wide enough to cover the spoke nipple holes without covering the shoulder between the rim floor and wall.

I've occasionally used thicker rim tape to prevent tubes from extruding into deeper spoke nipple holes in double wall rims, but usually a single strip of cloth tape will provide enough support. But generally the cloth tape shouldn't be too wide..
Always interesting how different approaches can solve the issue. I would never recommend tape so wide that it starts to creep up the sides of the rim, just so that's clear.
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Old 03-28-19, 02:51 PM
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I'm running Kenda skin walls, 27x1 1/4 on Rigida non-hooked rims on my '84 Peugeot at 90 psi and have had zero problems.
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Old 03-28-19, 03:15 PM
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pic of tape

Thanks all, I'll try the 70lbs first since its the easiest, also will swap front to back tires.

Brian
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Old 03-28-19, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat
The usual warning sign is the tire won't seat evenly all around as it's pumped up -- turn the mounted tire and inspect both sides carefully. If there's any hop or unevenness the bead hasn't seated properly, possibly due to rim tape that's too wide or too thick.
This ^^^^ happened to me just recently, even with a hooked rim. I thought for sure the tire was bad, or something funky with the tube maybe. Then I saw the rim tape riding up where the tire bead seats, only on parts of the circumfereince. Looked like it had been that way since the bike was built. Soon as I tried a narrower rim strip, perfect fit.
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Old 03-28-19, 05:00 PM
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Hmmm with the rim tape "argument". On the new hookless/tubeless MTB setups, the fix is to get the tight fit in the vertical plane if you will.

Basically the tire sits better (tighter) when we have more/wide rim tape because the sidewall of the rim only contains the tire, and the real sealing and nice fit is from the bottom of the bead being nice and tight with the bottom of the rim channel.

I have zero experience with a vintage hookless setup, so perhaps this won't apply here.

ETA- It sounds like a wire bead is a must i'd wager.
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Old 03-28-19, 08:01 PM
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The tires are wire bead Pasellas.
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Old 03-29-19, 02:25 PM
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The rim tape width in your photo should not interfere with seating the tire. The rim tape is down in the recessed channel, away from the shoulder or transition area. That's how I set up my double wall rims with cloth tape. No problems.

With single wall rims it's a bit trickier because I have to just guesstimate, or measure a bit of non-adhesive rim strip and buy cloth tape the same width or slightly narrower. A couple of times I've just split a single roll of wider Velox, cutting it down the middle (very tedious) and dividing it between a pair of rims, covering only the spoke nipple holes.

The only time the old bikeman4u YouTube channel steered me wrong was a few years ago when I mimicked bikeman's technique -- I saw him slap down a roll of cloth rim tape the full width of the rim, even covering part of the shoulder up to the hook area. Big mistake. I had two blow-offs in one day -- in the kitchen -- and some terrified family members and cats.

Bead seating problems depend on the tire. At the time I was using a set of Specialized Hemisphere 700x38 hybrid bike tires on my errand bike. Those tires fit very loosely onto the rims, and an uninflated tire would roll right off the rim, which made it impossible to roll the bike on a flat tire any distance -- even 10 feet would cause the rim tape to tangle in the wheel and derailleur. Hated those tires. Noisy, sluggish, squirmy and flat-prone.

I switched to Michelin Protek Cross Max, 700x40 nominally but measuring closer to 700x45. Massively thick sidewalls and wire bead, so the rim tape/strip width was even more critical. The tires would not seat at all until I trimmed the rim tape narrower and later switched to narrower rigid non-adhesive rim strips that supported the tubes against extruding into the spoke nipple holes. Tubes will eventually split and leak wherever they become dimpled from inadequate support from thin, flexible rim strips. Cloth tape or more rigid and stiff non-adhesive plastic strips will prevent that problem.

When I got an '80s road bike a couplafew years ago I switched it from the brittle old plastic rim strips to cloth tape, narrow enough to fit down in the recessed channel. No problems with any tires I've tried from Vittoria, Schwalbe or Continental, despite all four sets of tires fitting the rim very differently. The wire bead Vittoria Zaffiro can be remounted with just my hands. The folding Schwalbe and Contis need a Kool Stop bead jack to horse the folding bead over the rim.

Originally Posted by calstar

pic of tape

Thanks all, I'll try the 70lbs first since its the easiest, also will swap front to back tires.

Brian
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Old 09-18-19, 02:00 PM
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The hookless bead rim is making a comeback...... for tubeless tires....

https://www.enve.com/en/journal/behi...ho-theyre-for/
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Old 09-18-19, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict
The hookless bead rim is making a comeback...... for tubeless tires....

https://www.enve.com/en/journal/behi...ho-theyre-for/
I was skeptical at first, but I think replacing bead hooks with humps (sort of like how the rims on my 1967 Beetle and any other new car work) is ultimately the right choice for tubeless. Having a slightly smaller rim diameter on the other side of the hump where the tire seats also means that the tire doesn't need to fit quite as tightly as it does with tubeless rims that have level bead seats, which in theory could mitigate the large spoke tension drop that often happens with tubeless setups.

I'm curious if the quest to standardize tubeless tires will lead to them no longer being "backward-compatible" with traditional tubed rims... maybe it won't matter.
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Old 09-18-19, 11:30 PM
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I run Kenda "skinwall" 27x1 1/4 tires on my '84 Pug. The rims are Rigida alloy, no hook rims. I run them at 90 psi. I've had zero problems with them, not even one flat, in over 3 years.
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Old 09-18-19, 11:50 PM
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There is a lot of variation in tires and rims that are all supposedly the 'same' size. The size marked is approximate; and in some cases, very approximate. I've gone up to 80psi on some hookless rims, but that is with 'some' tires. If they fit loosely, just be careful and run lower pressures. Or find tighter fitting tires.
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Old 09-19-19, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lascauxcaveman
There is a lot of variation in tires and rims that are all supposedly the 'same' size. The size marked is approximate; and in some cases, very approximate. I've gone up to 80psi on some hookless rims, but that is with 'some' tires. If they fit loosely, just be careful and run lower pressures. Or find tighter fitting tires.
+ 1 on this.
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Old 09-19-19, 09:21 AM
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I have found that Continental tires all tend to run tight (on all sorts of hooked rims) so you might try a wire-bead Conti
Continental Ultra Sport II 27 Inch (Wire Bead) is one inexpensive choice, there are 27" Gatorskins too

Last edited by unworthy1; 09-19-19 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 09-25-19, 09:03 AM
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Lot of time gone by since original post but problem solved, put some Kenda 1 1/8 on the rims, initially tested with 90lbs siting in full hot sun all day with no issues, lots of miles and all is good. The Pasellas are now on Matrix rims from the early 90's, no issues there either. Evidently the Adraya's and Pasella's just didn't get along.

thanks for all the input, Brian
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