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Old 06-06-18, 03:35 PM
  #5076  
southernfox
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
[raises hand]

I do.

...and many others do, too.
You are a very special case because you basically do a standing lap start for your 200m.
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Old 06-06-18, 03:39 PM
  #5077  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
This is another reason the track splits, especially 1/4 lap splits if you can get them. It shows how your body functions and gives you a better insight into where you need to do more work.
Indeed! Talking about me, my worst segment is the first 100 meters. Most of the trouble there is my start. I can get out of the gate cleanly, but the first three to five pedal strokes just arenít strong enough. I have a pretty clear idea why, too, and Iím working hard to improve it.

Sorry for the thread creep!
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Old 06-06-18, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
You are a very special case because you basically do a standing lap start for your 200m.
Nope. Nope. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddddddddddd nope. You might want to wait a little longer and learn about what is out there in the track world before going around and making definitive diagnoses of how people function and go about things. Things aren't always as simple as they seem, nor are things as rare as they might seem to someone who may fall into the general major demographic of an activity. Just because the outcomes of someone's results are the reverse of yours doesn't mean that they are doing things vastly different than you.

Chris Hoy, Ryan Bailey, Jan Van Eijden, Arnoud Tournant, and Francois Pervis are just a few examples (off the top of my head) of guys who have attained higher "200/250m" split times in Kilos and Keirins than they have in qualifying. Hoy and Pervis started to tilt that towards the 200m when they were focusing more on Sprint and Keirin later in their careers vs. the Kilo specialization that they did earlier.

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Old 06-06-18, 04:10 PM
  #5079  
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I'm another who qualifies slower but has a good standing lap. For years I used the same gear for 200 and kilo, and only recently are my 200 gears starting to grow a bit bigger than my kilo gears. But at the moment that difference is only 1-2 teeth on the front. However, I have been using bigger gears all around as there is a tipping point that's useful to explore re peak speed vs sustainable cadence in a TT. Probably 500 is a bit different (not there just yet), but with kilo a bigger gear, while hurting your opener a little, can allow you a higher peak speed, longer acceleration, and a lower cadence which is easier to hang onto in the last lap. And after some strength training on bigger gears, my opener is as just as good as it used to be. I'm not talking huge gears here, basically going down a tooth on the back, e.g., 49x14->48x13. I know some dudes who are successfully running pretty big gears even for 500.

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Old 06-06-18, 04:23 PM
  #5080  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
You are a very special case because you basically do a standing lap start for your 200m.
Well...not exactly.

The F200 that you witnessed me do was on a dare. I was running my mouth and said that I could do a "Standing Lap style Flying 200M as fast as I could do a traditional Flying 200M". If I were in at a bigger comp, my windup would be more traditional...and my gearing would be probably 4 to 5 gear-inches lower than if I did a standing 500M the same day.

Also, it was my first F200 in 5 years (including training). So, I'm sure it was a mess. I had been doing more standing starts all spring than F200m windups.

Regarding gearing:
The gearing for a 500M can and will often be bigger than that for a flying 200...depending on the riders energy profile (read: % of muscle fiber types).

Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Nope. Nope. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddddddddddddd nope. You might want to wait a little longer and learn about what is out there in the track world before going around and making definitive diagnoses of how people function and go about things. Things aren't always as simple as they seem, nor are things as rare as they might seem to someone who may fall into the general major demographic of an activity. Just because the outcomes of someone's results are the reverse of yours doesn't mean that they are doing things vastly different than you.

Chris Hoy, Ryan Bailey, Jan Van Eijden, Arnoud Tournant, and Francois Pervis are just a few examples (off the top of my head) of guys who have attained higher "200/250m" times in Kilos and Keirins than they have in qualifying. Hoy and Pervis started to tilt that towards the 200m when they were focusing more on Sprint and Keirin later in their careers vs. the Kilo specialization that they did earlier.
+1
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Old 06-06-18, 04:34 PM
  #5081  
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post


Right now Iím riding 200ís in 90, matches in 90, but the 500 in 86 - 88, and the 2K in 86. I spent the whole last season on 86. Iím still exploring gearing, still (re)gaining strength. Itís good to establish some ďtruthsĒ, though.
Originally Posted by sarals View Post


Low ET! Like a drag race. I get up to speed quicker on the 86, hence a lower ET, even though top speed is lower.
Everybody is different.

You have to experiment and take good notes to see what works for you. There are many factors. Too many to sum up with a sentence like, your gear for X event will always be bigger than your gear for Y event.

Step 1: Ride and record data.
Step 2: Interpret the data.
Step 3: Tweak something
Step 4: Repeat.

This is essentially what a coach does for an athlete (s)he is both Recorder and Interpreter.

With modern tech, we can have a computer record and then serve as our own interpreter.
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Old 06-06-18, 04:35 PM
  #5082  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
... I know some dudes who are successfully running pretty big gears even for 500.
+1

That's how I do it.
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Old 06-06-18, 04:47 PM
  #5083  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
+1

That's how I do it.

Referencing your use of bigger gears for 500m, and finding that it works for you, how would you gear yourself for a 2 lap Chariot Race? With a good holeshot, you could essentially try and keep people behind and outside of you as you accelerate and continue to the finish line, or would you gear up and try to come around with a higher max speed? I know this is dependant on who you are facing in your heat, just wondering if this is something that would change compared to past strategies.
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Old 06-06-18, 07:00 PM
  #5084  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Everybody is different.

You have to experiment and take good notes to see what works for you. There are many factors. Too many to sum up with a sentence like, your gear for X event will always be bigger than your gear for Y event.

Step 1: Ride and record data.
Step 2: Interpret the data.
Step 3: Tweak something
Step 4: Repeat.

This is essentially what a coach does for an athlete (s)he is both Recorder and Interpreter.

With modern tech, we can have a computer record and then serve as our own interpreter.
it is totally personal! As well as daunting. Which is why I have a (really good) coach, and why I couldnít agree more on having one. Seriously, if youíre going to go into this sport all in, if you want and plan to succeed, you need help. Help is spelled ďC O A C HĒ
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Old 06-06-18, 08:51 PM
  #5085  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
I know some dudes who are successfully running pretty big gears even for 500.
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
+1
That's how I do it.
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.
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Old 06-06-18, 09:00 PM
  #5086  
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99.7UOTE=jsk;20381057]Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.[/QUOTE]


48x13 is 99.7". Chris Hoy used to Kilo in a 51x14 before gearing was creeping up, and that is a 98.4" gear. Back then, a lot of guys at the national level would use 51x15 (91.8") if they were spinners, or 48/49x14 (92.6/94.5") if they were competing internationally.

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Old 06-06-18, 09:14 PM
  #5087  
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.
It's not huge, but my go-to gear for kilo and 200 was 49x14 (94") for years, so it's relatively big for me. Some people are riding seriously monster gears these days (60+x13??) but that's just too big for this mid-sized dude (5'10"x175lbs) to handle. Gearing is intensely personal. It really requires experimentation, and to make big changes it can require a really different approach to training.
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Old 06-06-18, 09:37 PM
  #5088  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Referencing your use of bigger gears for 500m, and finding that it works for you, how would you gear yourself for a 2 lap Chariot Race? With a good holeshot, you could essentially try and keep people behind and outside of you as you accelerate and continue to the finish line, or would you gear up and try to come around with a higher max speed? I know this is dependant on who you are facing in your heat, just wondering if this is something that would change compared to past strategies.
2 laps on a 250?

I would gear up and try to finish strong. If I gear too low, I have a tendency to fade hard on the home straight.

Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.
For a flying 200M, I'd pick a 96 - 98" gear.
For a standing 500M, I'd pick a 101 - 104" gear.
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Old 06-06-18, 09:52 PM
  #5089  
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.
I'd say anything over 108" (53-13) is a big gear for a kilo. Many elites who go 1:07 or faster are 100+ these days, especially indoors. All of the guys who have gone sub 60 at sea level have been in the 115-120" (Glaetzer was on 58-13) range. From watching guys do the kilo on bigger and bigger gears, it seems like the strategy for riders has become "ride the biggest gear you can get up to 130 RPM in 300 m and the hold on for dear life.

Very high cadences (140+) are more fatiguing than slightly lower (120-130) ones, and people have realized you tend to slow down less on a big gear than a small gear. In particular, Matt Glaetzer has an almost sprinduro-like third and fourth lap in his kilo. He doesn't slow down as much as those guys did in the 90s spinning 94" at 150 RPM either.
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Old 06-06-18, 11:35 PM
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Agree with what Spartan Kid said above. Basically the smaller the gear, the quicker you get to your max cadence, and hence the more time (over the length of your race) you spend trying to maintain that max cadence. This hurts a lot. I've personally found with bigger gears it takes you longer to get to max cadence, but that doesn't necessarily make that first lap slower. You will spend a little less time trying to maintain and you'll be maintaining a lower cadence which is easier. The trick is you have to then train to be able to start that bigger gear quicker, and that means more on-bike strength training. I now do blocks of 100, 200 and 400 meter accelerations on 53x12 when beginning a training cycle to help with this.
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Old 06-07-18, 05:37 AM
  #5091  
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I know a few of you guys are in the South... who all is going to be at Dick Lane for States? Thinking about jumping into the endurance omnium to get some racing days in.
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Old 06-07-18, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys consider a big gear for a 500 or kilo? Baby Puke mentioned 48x13, that doesn't sound particularly huge to me but I'm still pretty new to this.
While it's good to have a smaller chainring...because of physics of starts...a 13 is really small for the back in terms of friction. Better to have 51x14 than 48x13.

Generally, people have 90-96" for a 500m gear. I ride really big gears because I have cadence issues, and I run 98-102" as my 500 gear.

Kilo gears are even bigger.

You need to balance top end speed with getting up to that speed asap. ...so whatever combo is faster for you is better. But you also have to consider your legs over the day or week. Smaller gears earlier, bigger gears later. So I might do qualifying on 96, but a final on 100, depending on conditions.
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Old 06-07-18, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
I know a few of you guys are in the South... who all is going to be at Dick Lane for States? Thinking about jumping into the endurance omnium to get some racing days in.
No...

But for your thought: why not?? There's so little racing at RH, that it's a great idea to go to DLV for race days.
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Old 06-07-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
No...

But for your thought: why not?? There's so little racing at RH, that it's a great idea to go to DLV for race days.
yeah, no real good reason other than having to take a Friday off work and having to drive through Atlanta
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Old 06-07-18, 01:36 PM
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Geez. I just learned that State Championships are at my home track next weekend.

lol. OK.

Whelp. I won't be ready. Work and family obligations have had me busy for weeks now.
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Old 06-07-18, 10:22 PM
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Good info on the 500/kilo gearing, looks like it really is a pretty broad range for different riders. I've always favored larger gears, I tend to ride a fairly low cadence even by roadie standards. Sustained high cadence is something I recognize I need to work on for the track, but for the time being I'm still faster on bigger gears. I'm going to be running 55/14 for pursuit this weekend at Master's Regionals (my main event), still trying to decide if I want to stick with that or drop to 54/14 for the kilo. I know I'll lose some time on the first lap, but even if I dropped the gearing down I'm not going to have the jump/top-speed of the true sprinters, I think my best shot is using a bigger gear to hold speed and finish strong.
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Old 06-09-18, 08:11 AM
  #5097  
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Does anyone know whether 22mm Conti Sprinters would work on these wheels?

710-0022007031

I ask because they say to use minimum 23mm tires, but that seems really wide as a minimum for a track wheel!

Last edited by southernfox; 06-09-18 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 06-09-18, 09:49 AM
  #5098  
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Call them. It looks like the description wss lifted from their road wheels. But then again, I don't see them altering or having a different mold for the two different wheels.
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