cooker

I'm not making an equivalence argument, I was a bit off the mark in this case as the website did say no "local" pollution, but I reacted because you often see lazy journalists and people in general referring to electric vehicles as "pollution free" or "carbon free" or "zero emission" etc. vehicles and the concern is that the people who buy and drive them might also buy into that false notion, and feel they now have a license (ha ha) to drive as much as they want.

3alarmer 

...no. Not here in LCF you can't.

...yeah. Pretty much here, too.

...I'm an American, cooker. My license to drive as much as I want came with my birth certificate.

350htrr

I'm pretty sure E-Bikes will go the way of mopeds, (needing a licence & insurance and not allowed where bicycles are allowed) IMO, once their numbers increase to a point where the "public" notices them and how fast they can go with not needing to be pedaled at all as they have a throttle...

and... along with them E-Assist bicycles that you actually MUST pedal to go anywhere will be lumped in there as well.

Dahon.Steve

What would kill the ebike is required liability insurance. I remember how mopeds were really catching on back in the 1970s and it seem like everyone had one. It really was fun watching teens and young adults ride everywhere with no helmets back then. I wanted one badly.

Once the state required insurance and helmets, the mopes all disappeared but you'll still find them every now and then in someone's garage.

E-bikes are different because the mindset is not the same today. There is a greater acceptance for green technology that wan't there 40 years ago. Cities all over want more people on bicycles and that includes electrics. What could damage the industry are the e-bikes going 30 mph or more! However, it's very rare to see anyone going that speed because it requires a significant investment.

rossiny

Well I guess if used in place of cars could be a good thing for environment., Funny how humans complicate stuff. Public transit combined with human power is the best I think. Maybe younger people could help older people , by giving them rides. Don't know why I feel this way lately , but feel earth is at a tipping point...

350htrr

28, that is the number all E-Bikes are aiming for nowadays... 28 Miles per Hour... and... That is in Legal mode, many also have off road mode that allows them to go even faster. Most E-Bikes made only a few years ago were adhering to the EU Laws and could only go 32Km/20 MPH with a 350 watt motor, or even only 25Km/15MPH with a 250 watt motor, a huge increase at 45Km/28MPH and 750 watts motor now allowed in a lot of states... Oh, and no throttle in the EU, unlike here in N America where throttles are allowed... Thus, the higher speed combined with a throttle and 2X the power will end the present E-Bike law that allows them at for present to be legally considered, a bicycle under the Law. JMO

350htrr

Maybe because it is...

rossiny

Why call it a bike and not a motor-bike? I am just saying humans complicate stuff..more than what it can be...

350htrr

Because, in the EU it was, and still is an "assist", to get more people riding a bicycle, because, you know, hills are a B**** to most, so a "little bit of assist was Legally allowed" and you could still Legally ride a motorised bike where only bicycles were allowed to be ridden because you still HAD to pedal to get anywhere, no throttles allowed...

But of course, here in N America, a little bit of "assist" seems to have grown a bit, to where you don't actually even need to pedal, but you are still Legally riding a bicycle and thus not need insurance, licence...

I-Like-To-Bike

What is your definition of "catching on" and "everyone? Where did you see that phenomena?
I don't remember mopeds ever being popular or in common use by anybody but a tiny slice of teenagers/students at any time in the U.S.

DogBoy

As to insurance on e-bikes...several carriers have already excluded liability from home policies for bikes with a motor. Anyone with one of these carriers involved in a crash that is their fault will put them on the hook for the losses. One or two major cases and the mandatory registration/licensing/insurance will get more attention. I agree that is the direction we are headed.

BBassett

It's not the brand, Yamaha or Bosch or on and on that makes them undesirable to me. What I don't like is that they are all proprietary. The motor fits inside the frame rather than adding a motor to an existing bike. So once I buy the "bike", I am stuck with the motor forever. Screw that. Find the best bike for you and hang a BaFang center drive on her. Check and see how many of the major bike brands are creating their own motors, not many. They took the short route and just bought someone else's idea of what a bike motor should be and put them on their bikes. Screw that. I haven't seen one ebike manufacturer that got everything right yet. Anything less than 750W is crazy and anything more can create problems riding in cities and on roads.

350htrr

That would depend on why ,you got an E-Bike...

For a bit of assistance, but still maintaining the normal riding bicycle ride characteristics. 250 to 350 watts.
For a bit more speed, but still maintaining the normal riding bicycle characteristics. 250 to 350 watts.
For a bit of assistance and a bit more speed up hills, but still maintaining the normal riding bicycle characteristics. 350 to 500 watts is plenty.

For anything more you are basically riding a moped. IMO 750 Maybe legally considered a bicycle, but... and yes technically once you put a motor onto a bicycle it IS a moped, (even only a 250 watt), but not in legal terms...

BBassett

I chose the 750w because the American Federal definition states that a bicycle with a 750w electric motor is literally, by definition a bicycle and can go anywhere that a human-powered bike can go. No license no other restriction. There is also very little difference in weight between 350, 500 and 750w motors. I would rather have more power than less when necessary. I also travel with 4 full panniers and suspended trailer. But even when pulling a full load uphill my motor never gets close to "hot".

Definition - "A moped is a small motorcycle, generally having a less stringent licensing requirement than motorcycles or automobiles because mopeds typically travel about the same speed as bicycles on public roads. Mopeds by definition are driven by both an engine and bicycle pedals...".

I understand your point about the line between bike/ebike and moped... this is how I place the line. You ever see someone pedal a moped for miles not using the motor? No? Then its still a bike, not a moped. The pedals on a Moped are used to start the motor and to rest your feet, not ride/pedal it. I specifically try to use my motor as little as possible. Maximum distance using least power averaging between 10 and 15 mph.

350htrr

Yes, I see you have a great set up there. and... as long as you pedal and put in your normal amount of "effort"... You are still riding a legal bicycle, even IMO... Unfortunately... a 750 watt motor "can be used" " as a moped, especially if it has a throttle... Thus my downer and maybe even anti-N-American "legal" E-Bike LAW, opposition. Mainly because I think those E-Bike laws will be changed and bring ALL E-Bikes even E-assisted bikes into moped territory, even if you have to pedal them to get anywhere... Legally, speaking...

BBassett

You say, Unfortunate, and I smile and chose to see all the "fortunate" value and benefits the system has now. You chose to hope for the worst possible outcome for the rider and I hope and strive for the best possible outcome. To be able to ride a bike like it has always been intended. California's system seems to be working fine also. The more bike riders the better for the economy and the environment, so don't impede the progress with rules, regs, and greed. This is the ebike industry, not Solar Panels.

350htrr

Good for you and anyone else that uses a 750 watt motor judiciously... UNFORTUNATELY... people in general would not/will not. and what does that mean to us that use an E-Bike in the "spirit" it was intended to be used as a bicycle... Well now, I'll tell you what will probably happen. IMO all E-Bikes will become mopeds once a certain level is reached and OFFICIAL scrutiny gets involved and people start to "demand" licencing and such for these abominations/err mopeds/err E-Bikes, that are pretending to be bicycles...

EDIT; All you needs do, is read through threads like this one. Over and over, the same "problems" show up, complaints by regular bicycle riders... People going too fast, people not pedaling, yet moving fast, people/friends cheating, and going around the cut-offs set by the manufacturer so they can go faster...

BBassett

Ok... little incoherent, but kind of understandable, you probably just didn't take your time. I would suggest that you upgrade to new technology and go ride. Stop worrying about what will "Probably Happen". The "people" will not "demand" more red-tape with the use of bikes. And Armageddon won't happen because riders chose to use 750w motors. I also think that you will do better in life And riding when you stop thinking of yourself as a "regular" bike rider and that any bike with a motor is a Moped because they just aren't. Let's just focus on increasing bike infrastructure, the number of riders, and keeping riders safe from cars as much as possible. Not limiting riders and making it more difficult for them to do what they want... which is just ride.

BBassett

One last thing... How do you think ebikes were intended to be used other than as a replacement for a horse, car, or worn out shoes? Do you think they built them to be slower than a "regular" person walking? I assure you they did not.

https://www.electricbike.com/e-bike-...rom-the-1800s/

350htrr

I believe their "intended" use (for today's use) was and is, to get around licensing laws for motorised vehicles...

Now having said that, I have absolutely no problem with the EU laws as they stand, as it insures that E-Assisted bicycle's actually can't be used like a moped... But allows people who otherwise wouldn't/couldn't, to get out and ride a bicycle.

As to the US laws that you posted I think all of them allow the E-Bike to be used as mopeds if the rider wants to use it like that... and.. therein lies the problem for me to except that over powered, throttle controllable E-Bikes to be treated as bicycles...

BBassett

So you think ebikes were intended to bypass motor vehicle licensing that didn't begin for another 60, 80 maybe 100 years? Wow, that is amazing foresight huh? Maybe 250w motors are too much for you too.

Happy New Year.

350htrr

I believe I should have said in bold to make it clearer...

Did you even read what I wrote...??? I believe I wrote for E-Assisted bicycles up to the EU levels is all right by me... as for the intended use I meant, today's intended use. and really, that is a stretch for a strawman argument as to what happened 100+ years ago...

BBassett

Now that is a good question. Bikes were invented because they were helpful, fun, and a genius idea. Applying electric motors was "Originally" and is "Presently " used to make them more capable and (to most anyone that has ridden one) even more fun. Regulations, licensing, insurance are all designed to make someone else money from your fun. I don't ride every day to get over on some law or to save money. Trust me my bike is expensive. I ride an ebike because it lets me do more, go further, go faster then I can peddling. Why are you touting the overly cautious "European Way" from your couch in Canada eh?!? Have you ever ridden overseas? Have you ever ridden with a 750w motor? Which would you rather have when riding away from a hungry grizzly bear on some deserted Canadian highway? You want to limit me to 250W so you feel more comfortable watching others ride?

350htrr

WOW, That's EXACTLY, why I ride an E-Assist bicycle... No, I have never ridden a 750 motor E-Bike, I have ridden an 500 watt E-Assist bike tho... and.. Knowing what that motor can do, I happen to think a 350 is plenty. as an assist to still keep the bicycle a bicycle even tho it has a motor. JMO and maybe the EU regulators opinion too... that once you go over, that, meaning (500 watt), it starts to feel like a moped, I guess I like to think that I am actually still putting in more pedaling effort into making the bicycle move than the motor is... silly me.

EDIT; Oh, and that kind of bear situation has, basically happened to me, except it was on a trail, tho still inside the city limits...

BBassett

For some reason, you say E-Assist bicycle like that is different than other ebikes. There are hub motors and mid-drive motor and a few other exotics and/or lame designs. But you are using electricity to "assist" making it easy and more fun. That is what they are doing in Europe too, it's not magical. I can't get on and ride my bike without peddling. That is what initiates the motor. I peddle and the motor turns-on. If I peddle harder or faster it doesn't apply more power from the motor. Any extra effort goes into the chain and to my Rohloff and I go faster. Gearing works exactly the same as comparable bikes. So if I am riding at full weight (500+ lbs, with rider and gear)and approach a steep hill, I either have to step-up the peddle power or raise the motor power for the incline (gravity wants her pound of flesh). Everyone talks about it being hard to climb hills. But it really isn't. It just takes a lot longer. Your cadence should be the same climbing as when cruising on level ground. We change the gears to achieve that cadence. The better you get the more steady the cadence regardless of the road angle. Same with a motor... dial in the gear and then the power necessary to maintain your cadence peddling and walk up the hill, just with a slower forward momentum. I can't do what I do with a 500w motor, let alone less. Armstrong on the "good stuff" couldn't do what I am doing with a 750w center drive. I DO go over 28 mph sometimes though, so do you. It's called descending, hair flying in the breeze, sometimes even with my legs spread wide and yelling "Waa Hoo". I think if you are hellbent on raining on someone's parade you should start comparing hub motors (of any size) to your oh-so-loved Moped. Regulate those bad boys anyway you want. They are the one with 5, 6 or 7000w runners with a thumb throttle. Go get those guys, I just want to ride anywhere a bike can go and do it safely. Moped are meant for the roads and bike aren't necessarily. And of course you have had a bear chase you, you're Canadian ain't ya?