350htrr

IMO, this is ALSO the place where actually car light people can... "Nudge" people who want to be car lighter but, find that the first step is hard... after all, swimming against any current is harder than going with the flow...

I have noticed that there are people on here that, like cooker and a few others, who understand and are nudging...

and, Then there are "others", like ILTB...

KD5NRH

And a part of that is having a car that complements the bike properly, rather than mostly replacing it. Unfortunately, those aren't as common as they could be. The little Chevy Luv and Subaru Brat are pretty good at being exactly right to "pick up the slack" of hauling larger loads longer distances, while still getting decent gas mileage, (and imagine what they could get now if they were still being actively developed as efficient-if-a-bit-weak small cargo haulers) that keeps them still viable for longer non-cargo trips. Same for many of the later wagons before they pretty much died out. Bonus on any of those is that they'll also haul a bike easily for "last mile" (or 5, or 10 as the rider sees fit) transit from a better parking area. (When going to downtown Dallas, I often parked at a DART station near whichever interstate I was on and took the train in, because it was faster and less stressful than driving downtown. From personal experience, riding and parking a bike there is also vastly less stressful than dealing with the car in any but a few small parts of the CBD.)

Compare that with, say, the elusive and magical Elio. (Let's pretend for the moment that it ever will actually exist. I'll believe it when if they deliver, but the concept is the ideal for many commuters who aren't interested in cycling; low price even brand new, double the mileage of anything in production, and pretty much all the luxury options they've come to expect.) It can't haul much, certainly not the bike, and likely not much more than my trailer. OTOH, it has heat, A/C, and can take me to Dallas in about 3 hours for less than the cost of the meals on a 2-day ride to get there on the bike. (My Saturn would do the same at roughly equal cost to said meals, and though the A/C never worked right, a 75mph wind cools much better than a 14mph one.) It's nearly as efficient for short trips, so the incentive to bike to the store is essentially lost in any but the best weather; even if it takes $1 in gas, that's sure worth it to drive in 70F A/C or heat rather than ride in 115F sun or 20F freezing rain. Heck, I'd waste more than that on the extra shower and laundry from having my clothes either sweat soaked or rain soaked. All that without providing the extra benefit of being able to haul more stuff than the bike, and without even being able to take the bike along for the "last mile" option.

NOTE: I don't consider a vehicle to be properly capable of hauling a bike in a useful manner if it can't take my bike with racks and fenders intact, and no more disassembly than possibly removing the front wheel, and ideally not even that; the longer it takes to go from loaded to riding and back, the more incentive to take the bike at all is lost. My fender stays already look like they've been run over from trying to load the bike into a reasonably-large-looking recent model SUV, which still involved removing the front wheel, mashing the font fender badly enough that it took a half hour of tweaking to fix the wheel rub, and snagging the back fender several times during loading and unloading. I had previously carried it in a Subaru Legacy Wagon with far less difficulty because the car was made for more than groceries. Carrying it securely is also a substantial concern; a roof or trunk/tailgate/hitch rack is inviting damage and theft. Almost any pickup can get a shell or tonneau cover, which at least puts the bike entirely within the vehicle, out of the path of airborne debris, and out of danger of being destroyed by a low clearance like a roof rack, or by a minor rear-end collision like a trunk mount.

KD5NRH

Makes about as much sense as a discussion on what the best ice cream flavor is. "Best bicycle" depends on way too many factors when car light is part of the equation; the guy who drives a 30 mile commute and uses the bike for his <2 mile local utility trips has vastly different needs (more hauling, less distance - maybe even a single speed cruiser) from the one who works on his farm but wants to ride 10 miles to town for groceries a couple times a week. (hauling and moderate distance - hybrid with racks and panniers) Then you have the ones like Doohickie, that have (or had; haven't heard from him in a while) a relatively long commute, but drive supplies to and from the office weekly to be able to use an unloaded road bike the rest of the time. (long distance, no hauling - whatever he feels like putting 40+ miles on that day) Same when overall family needs come into the equation.

tandempower

The cost of a vehicle cannot compare with a bike. Even if you spend more on meals, that's not going to add up to the many $1000s you spend on a car. To me, one of the saddest things about owning a car is that once you are paying for it, registering it, insuring it, etc. you really have to start looking for more to do with it to make it worth the expenditure.

Car-shares and rental cars are good for this reason, because even if you end up spending several hundred dollars to rent a car for days, it's a lot less than buying one for good. On the other hand, though, after LCFing for many years, I've come to prefer (long distance) bus trips over the idea of renting a car, even though it's probably more expensive, just because I can avoid all the liability and hassle that comes with driving instead of riding. Plus, I just don't want to respond to the temptation of using a car - because I know that temptation is exactly what keeps so much pavement from being reforested.

350htrr

100% true,, Maybe the reason it/cars have been adopted was time, or, convenience, or a show of
success, or, well it works better personally than taking the bus...

and... that is why there are TAXI's and rental places for people who use certain vehicles once in awhile...

KD5NRH

Ok, one more time; I am not a citizen of pansy-ass land where I must go into major debt to buy a brand new car with all the latest features every other year and pretend it's some sort of special investment to be lavishly cared for. It's a box that takes me places I can't reasonably get to on the bike and does it entirely on my terms. Like my dinner, I enjoy it as much as its condition justifies until it's time to flush it down the toilet.

Last good car; $700 purchase, $250 initial repairs, $56/yr registration, $12.50/yr inspection, $70/mo insurance. Lasted 3 years and a bit over 200k miles, which comes out to about $100/mo. Less than a fancy cable package. Insurance would have been cheaper had I driven fewer miles, but the whole point of having it was for trips that aren't practical by any other means, and those came out to about 750 miles per month.

cooker

200,000 miles in 3 years in a $700 car? That's not your average story! Did you include your gas costs in your estimate?

Edit: probably a decimal place error. Did you mean 20,000 miles? Or the car's lifetime mileage was 200,000?

KD5NRH

No, because gas, oil changes, tires, etc. are entirely dependent on how much the car is driven. The discussion was about the cost of having it available to me at all times.

Nope; got it with 120k miles, and had it until ~330k.

tandempower

Having a vehicle only "works better personally than taking the bus" for a while. As an area gains popularity and grows, travel times and congestion also grow. The more this happens, the harder it is to make bus transit efficient, and thus the more difficult it becomes to get significant numbers of people to switch over to transit as a solution to congestion.

Car shares, rental cars, and ride-sharing can help supplement transit and cycling, but when a strong culture of personal car use has taken root, it can be difficult for people to psychologically accept the difference between personal car ownership and multimodalism that includes ride-share/car-share. People are basically just not used to walking or biking away from their homes for any reason besides taking a walk around the neighborhood. They are used to having a personal vehicle full of supplies that they carry around with them everywhere without taking them into and out of the house every time they come and go.

tandempower

You got pretty lucky with that $700 car. I have watched a few people buy used cars at that price range and end up miserable with all sorts of mechanical problems and costly repairs before they gave up and sold the car for scrap. Mostly the only way to get a reliable MV is to buy something with a warranty, which will cost $1000s, whether new or used. New car dealers tend to offer low monthly payments for longer terms, which gets people locked into long-term debt. Then, when you bring the vehicle in for service, they approach you with trade-in offers that lower your monthly payment even further. It reminds me of the song, Karma Chameleon, where he says, "you string along." Car ownership is like owning a Karma Chameleon.

cooker

Well, your math is messed up somewhere, as you said you drove it 750 miles/month and owned it three years. That's 27,000 miles.

KD5NRH

750 miles of regular trips. I didn't average out all my trips over the life of the car. Basically every month I went to classes in two different cities totalling 750 miles. Other times, I drove to other places, including a 2,000 mile trip and plenty of 200-500 mile ones. but since those weren't frequent trips I didn't count them in the monthly total.

cooker

That's some pretty heroic driving - 70,000 miles a year means in addition to your "regular" 750 miles per month, your "other places" trips averaged 5083 miles per month. That would have killed me in less than three years! Those 200-500 mile trips must have been a lot more frequent than you recall.

KD5NRH

Uh, no. Like bicycles, if you insist on being an imbecile, you'll buy a Kent with a worn out freewheel and assume all bicycles on Craigslist are garbage. If you actually take the time to look over the car and know what you're looking for, it's not hard to find the ones with simple issues that kept the previous owner from wearing out expensive stuff.

tandempower

Used car dealers can take a car and replace things that make the car run alright temporarily. They will steam clean under the hood and clean the upholstery and everything else. You can look at a freewheel and see the teeth are worn and/or sharpened to a point. You can replace most any part of any old bike you buy or find, if you want, without spending more than it costs to buy a new bike, which isn't much.

With cars, you will quickly be spending in the $1000s, and that's if you buy it cash. If you end up with payments, you'll be paying $1000s a year for years, and they will offer you trade-in deals to seduce you into extending your loan. The more you depend on driving, the more automotive businesses depend on you to keep driving.

KD5NRH

And that's why I don't go to used car dealers. I'm pretty good at spotting BS when it comes to Craigslist postings, and there are plenty of people out there who just want to get rid of the ugly car the wife is tired of looking at because hubby never made time to replace the clutch, or busted the shift linkage. In my case, he trashed a rear wheel bearing and his wife wanted him to get a pickup anyway. $60 in parts and about an hour to replace both of them, and a couple hundred to tweak other things, like motor mounts, a pair of tires, all new filters and fluids, etc.

tandempower

Getting lucky with a used car is like getting lucky at the casino. Even if you evade losing your shirt, you're flirting with a dependency that will eventually cost you a lot of time and savings. Achieving LCF is the best way to avoid the eventual money pit of long-term car ownership. I wouldn't want to be moving in the other direction.

fietsbob

We have an Amtrak /ODOT affiliate company running Buses out here , from PDX 2x daily.. the big city has Zip Cars and Uber/Lyft.

the local buses have a 2 bike rack on the front.

We also have a few taxi companies to get people home from the bars.

KD5NRH

If the casino will let me see what order the deck is in before they deal, I'll be so "lucky" I'll have a limo and chauffeur by the time I leave. Never yet had a seller refuse to let me go over the engine with a stethoscope or pop out a couple spark plugs and look over the cylinders and piston heads with a borescope. Most cars, it'll also let you look over the lifters and valve stems through the oil filler hole. Through the throttle body for a look at how much gunk is in the intake, and manual transmissions, including the clutch, I can pretty much gauge by the feel. If there's any doubt, while the plugs are out, a compression gauge check only takes a couple minutes. Run it hard on the test drive and save checking out the stereo until after you've listened to the engine under various load conditions.

If a seller is even remotely reticent to let me take 20-30 minutes looking it over and a test drive long enough to get it fully warmed up, it's a simple matter to go to the next ad on CL. Most of the ones that attract my interest are happy to have me list off anything I find, and the last time I didn't buy from one, he updated his listing with the new issues and a $100 lower price by the end of the day. Somebody selling a running car for $500 isn't usually doing it because they need cash, but because they need the car gone, and just want to get something for it. Most of the good ones I've found were guys who wanted someone to get some use out of it or they'd have already scrapped or donated it.

Greyhound means going to the next city is a 2-3 day trip, minimum, because they don't run any same-day returns. Not realistic for going 70 miles away to take a class or catch a dance.

Imagine the problems if you're too lazy to look over a bike once in a while, or to maintain it at all. When the car deteriorates to the point where repairs start costing more than replacing it with another $500-1000 beater, I start looking around again. I've had far more unexpected failures in bad places from bikes than cars, and at least with the car I can lock the doors and leave it there while I walk to better cell reception.

jon c. 

In my experience that tends to be true. I know I've been in that position a number of times. Hate to junk a car that has life left in it, but issues I don't feel like dealing with.

KD5NRH

And there's always somebody like me that will drive it until the wheels fall off, then replace the hubs and drive it until the head starts leaking.

tandempower

That's not what I mean with the casino comparison. I am talking about getting people hooked on driving so that they are always stuck paying insurance, car payments, repairs, etc. The casino can afford to let you win some to get you hooked so you will keep playing long after you start losing.

If there was enough demand, there would enough routes in both directions to allow for same-day returns.

KD5NRH

Insurance isn't that expensive if you buy cash up front and don't have to carry full coverage. That also means no car payments. Learning to do basic repairs yourself, and using regular mechanics instead of dealerships for anything else will keep a beater running for far less than a typical car payment.

I tallied up repairs on my Saturn for a year, and I spent $320 in parts. If I'd gone to a mechanic rather than pay an extra $20 for a service manual, then parts and labor would have still been right at $1000 for that year. I could have bought and fixed up 4-5 equivalent beaters (thus having plenty of spares) and still spent substantially less than my boss at the time was paying on his brand new Dodge that got three wrecker rides in its first year. (But of course, he bought new because he "needs it to be reliable." Didn't seem to help much when he spent a half day in a cafe in Marble Falls waiting for a sales rep to come pick him up, then had to burn another 6 hours - 3 hours of that also taking up a sales rep's time - a few days later to go pick the truck up from the dealer in Austin. For what we lost on the contract he didn't get that day, I could have put a "free to good home" sign on my car, left it there, hitchhiked and bought another off Craigslist later.)

Not likely on any useful schedule; probably half the trips to DFW from here other than crazy commuters (yes, there are a few that drive 70-150 miles each way every day) are Friday and Saturday evening trips, yet there's no Sunday service at all. If you go up there for something on Saturday, you're stuck waiting for one that gets here Monday afternoon. It's highly improbable that they'd offer a redeye route to get folks home from Cowboys or Rangers games, or any of the other evening activities that would pretty much necessitate a 1AM or later departure unless the numbers got to the point where they could guarantee packed buses every time.

EDIT: Just checked and they've completely dropped service here. Not overly surprising, as there's an on-demand airport shuttle for $115 flat rate for up to 3 people each way, (which will generally drop anywhere in FW for no extra charge, and convenient points in Dallas for a little extra) when Greyhound was $40 each way with miserable scheduling.

tandempower

So what you're trying to say is that the economy is structuring you into driving, but you're beating it by finding a less expensive way to drive?

KD5NRH

My job skills other than bike mechanic pretty much demand driving. A field service tech or sales rep trying to cover a three county territory on a bicycle is going to be hard pressed to average one call a day.

As for bike mechanic, you city slickers could move your pansy butts down here and give me enough work to make at least minimum wage at that.