6 months without a car in Detroit
02-19-18, 08:09 PM
#126
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Of course I do, but the point isn't people who are thoughtful and concerned. The point is that some people might figure out where someone is and stalk them for some insane reason. For me, disagreements are just verbal but some people take it further, in case you haven't noticed from reading the news everyday.
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02-20-18, 05:38 PM
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Of course I do, but the point isn't people who are thoughtful and concerned. The point is that some people might figure out where someone is and stalk them for some insane reason. For me, disagreements are just verbal but some people take it further, in case you haven't noticed from reading the news everyday.
02-21-18, 08:04 AM
#129
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Anthropophobia
>>> i assume you make a point of avoiding public places ... i have a friend who dealt with this thru RECLUCIVEISM ... he feels safe when he is alone in his cabin ... he has a large $$$ trust fund ... he has no electricity ... he thinks the internet is a large trap ... he is a highly rated postal chesser > 2000+ ... his car is an orig stump jumper! ... your posts suggest a lifestyle change may help ... i suggest you start reading dostoyevsky novels and from there you may find some daylight > peace be with you
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02-21-18, 08:23 AM
#130
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Last edited by Jim from Boston; 02-21-18 at 08:56 AM.
02-21-18, 08:38 AM
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02-21-18, 08:40 AM
#132
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My freaking computer won't let me type LoL .... whatever.
02-21-18, 09:12 AM
#133
Prefers Cicero
02-21-18, 01:50 PM
#134
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>>> i assume you make a point of avoiding public places ... i have a friend who dealt with this thru RECLUCIVEISM ... he feels safe when he is alone in his cabin ... he has a large $$$ trust fund ... he has no electricity ... he thinks the internet is a large trap ... he is a highly rated postal chesser > 2000+ ... his car is an orig stump jumper! ... your posts suggest a lifestyle change may help ... i suggest you start reading dostoyevsky novels and from there you may find some daylight > peace be with you
02-21-18, 03:10 PM
#135
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Thanks for the sound advice. A bike is actually a pretty safe way to go, compared to walking or even driving a car.
I grew up in Detroit, Highland Park actually. I was carfree much of the time. My first real job was right downtown on Adams St. I got out after midnight, then took the Woodward bus home to H.P. There were a couple times I was a little scared, but I handled myself well and nothing happened.
The bike situation in Detroit generally sounds pretty good, with the Slow Rides and all. I think about moving back there when I retire in a few years.
I grew up in Detroit, Highland Park actually. I was carfree much of the time. My first real job was right downtown on Adams St. I got out after midnight, then took the Woodward bus home to H.P. There were a couple times I was a little scared, but I handled myself well and nothing happened.
The bike situation in Detroit generally sounds pretty good, with the Slow Rides and all. I think about moving back there when I retire in a few years.
02-22-18, 01:06 AM
#136
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You should come back. Detroit has come such a long way in the five years I've been here and is getting better all the time. The Slow Roll is crazy. Thousands of people. The first half of the ride is kind of a bummer because riders are so bunched up, but after that it is clear sailing. It's also great that the police block some streets and facilitate the ride.
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02-22-18, 06:29 AM
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You should come back. Detroit has come such a long way in the five years I've been here and is getting better all the time…
Thanks for the nice posts. Detroit is a great city and I do hope I can move back some day!
),FYA, see my preceding post on this thread,
... There was this recent thread on the Great Lakes Regional Discussion Forum, "Riding through Detroit", with some sage replies...
I have not quoted the many specific routes and sights touted on the at thread, or more which I know personally (link).
I have not quoted the many specific routes and sights touted on the at thread, or more which I know personally (link).
02-25-18, 09:54 PM
#138
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
LCF is still operating within standard parameters. 
Cars, TV/internet, and suburbs are all in one package of lifestyle. The future will get along fine without them.
Cars, TV/internet, and suburbs are all in one package of lifestyle. The future will get along fine without them.
02-26-18, 01:16 AM
#139
Sophomoric Member
Just to be clear, we do have many who live in the suburbs posting on this forum. And I happen to enjoy TV and the internet, and I'm sure others do also. So your stereotypes seem to have no basis in reality!
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02-26-18, 08:30 AM
#140
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Yeah, I always fire up the pc, turn on the monitor, and log on when I want to tell everyone about the evils of the internet and how technology is damaging us.
Then when I am done saving the world via blog post, I relax in front of the TV, eating a snack i had stored in the refrigertor and then heated up in the microwave on a plate my dishwasher will wash.
Then when I am done saving the world via blog post, I relax in front of the TV, eating a snack i had stored in the refrigertor and then heated up in the microwave on a plate my dishwasher will wash.
02-26-18, 11:26 AM
#141
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I am using the internet now, and I have a tv and an automobile. Regardless of whatever we think of them as evil, necessary, or wonderful, such high energy devices and systems will be increasingly rare. Desperation to preserve a way of life won't change thermodynamics.
02-26-18, 11:46 AM
#142
Prefers Cicero
If so, perhaps use of the automobile will be cut back first, as it is the highest energy user of those devices, and the internet may even make it a bit less necessary.
02-26-18, 01:47 PM
#143
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Since high school I have been thinking about this—and back then I wanted a Jay leno-sized fleet of cars.
Cars are vastly unspecialized, is a lot of the problem. Cars which need to be efficient in stop-and-go in a city are going to be wasting energy on the highway, and cars which need to carry six passengers and gear are wasting energy when people are riding solo.
I don’t think eliminating the desire for readily available personal transport is going away soon. What can change is how it works. Imagine commuters using fleets of electric-hybrid Elio-sized vehicles which plug in and recharge at transit stations (train and/or bus) or which drive right onto train-ferry cars (like Amtrac’s auto-train except enclosed) where people just sit in their cars for the ride?
Electric is obviously the power source for urban congestion—the pollution is generated elsewhere, and the immediate torque allows quick getaways at the lights, while regenerative braking helps conserve energy used in fast starts.
obviously lowering the number of cars in use helps in a lot of ways, but there is no practical way (that I can see, and certainly nothing I have heard here) to eliminate cars.
But a car half as wide and half as light is a big improvement.
For extended highway use, again a hybrid—with a gas engine tuned to run in a narrow rev range and electric assist for merging and passing. Smaller battery, lower weight and a very lean-burning engine because it doesn’t have to generate a lot of torque to get moving and a lot of power to pass.
The bodywork could be ultra-low drag and the tirs very narrow—because the car would only have to work really well from the home to the freeway, and from the freeway to the office and back—for people who refuse to use a car-train.
Small electrics with AV (even if not full “level 5” could also link up and form bike-racing-style pelotons where they could run closer on “highway setting” because the cars could key off say, and infrared signal which told all the car when a car ahead was going to brake
Emergency stops don’t happen much on the highway—accident are excessive speed and careless lane changes, or people getting stupid in stop-and-go traffic. Running at a steady pace with a long collision detection field ahewad a peloton might be a lot more efficient.
To me this mirrors in some ways the gun debate—some people want to eliminate all guns, some people want to own ICBMs and stealth bombers, and most folks think there is a middle ground..
Instead fo looking to ban cars, make sure that everyone who wants to can get where he or she wants when he or she wants, while lessening pollution, resource use, and stress on the driving poopulation.
Starting from there, instead of starting with the goal of banning cars or limiting cars, is mor erpacticial. Some people here can’t see that, i think—they think that since they don’t like having a cr no one should.
That approach only alienates a lot of the support needed to make changes.
You sell people Increased convenience, better service for the same price, no loss in freedom for less negative impact on the world your kids will inherit—those are sales campaigns a real ad firm would take on.
“Suffer because it enriches the soul” is Not a product you are going to sell in America, And if you can’t sell it to people, politicians aren’t going to support it—they need votes, not warm fuzzy feelings.
People seem to like owning personal cars—and in some settings, particularly more rural, it is probably most efficient to own a crew-cab pickup than anything else.
But for suburban/urban driving, where population density and the availability of paved roads and rail lines crate more options ... I think Car-Light folks need to be thinking of how to make the car better suited to its uses—more efficient.
I am hoping AV minibuses will make a big difference—because getting kids to school creates a clogged structure every morning and afternoon, because work hours have to dovetail with school hours, and that means Everyone is on the road somewhere between 7 and 9 a.m.
Cars are vastly unspecialized, is a lot of the problem. Cars which need to be efficient in stop-and-go in a city are going to be wasting energy on the highway, and cars which need to carry six passengers and gear are wasting energy when people are riding solo.
I don’t think eliminating the desire for readily available personal transport is going away soon. What can change is how it works. Imagine commuters using fleets of electric-hybrid Elio-sized vehicles which plug in and recharge at transit stations (train and/or bus) or which drive right onto train-ferry cars (like Amtrac’s auto-train except enclosed) where people just sit in their cars for the ride?
Electric is obviously the power source for urban congestion—the pollution is generated elsewhere, and the immediate torque allows quick getaways at the lights, while regenerative braking helps conserve energy used in fast starts.
obviously lowering the number of cars in use helps in a lot of ways, but there is no practical way (that I can see, and certainly nothing I have heard here) to eliminate cars.
But a car half as wide and half as light is a big improvement.
For extended highway use, again a hybrid—with a gas engine tuned to run in a narrow rev range and electric assist for merging and passing. Smaller battery, lower weight and a very lean-burning engine because it doesn’t have to generate a lot of torque to get moving and a lot of power to pass.
The bodywork could be ultra-low drag and the tirs very narrow—because the car would only have to work really well from the home to the freeway, and from the freeway to the office and back—for people who refuse to use a car-train.
Small electrics with AV (even if not full “level 5” could also link up and form bike-racing-style pelotons where they could run closer on “highway setting” because the cars could key off say, and infrared signal which told all the car when a car ahead was going to brake
Emergency stops don’t happen much on the highway—accident are excessive speed and careless lane changes, or people getting stupid in stop-and-go traffic. Running at a steady pace with a long collision detection field ahewad a peloton might be a lot more efficient.
To me this mirrors in some ways the gun debate—some people want to eliminate all guns, some people want to own ICBMs and stealth bombers, and most folks think there is a middle ground..
Instead fo looking to ban cars, make sure that everyone who wants to can get where he or she wants when he or she wants, while lessening pollution, resource use, and stress on the driving poopulation.
Starting from there, instead of starting with the goal of banning cars or limiting cars, is mor erpacticial. Some people here can’t see that, i think—they think that since they don’t like having a cr no one should.
That approach only alienates a lot of the support needed to make changes.
You sell people Increased convenience, better service for the same price, no loss in freedom for less negative impact on the world your kids will inherit—those are sales campaigns a real ad firm would take on.
“Suffer because it enriches the soul” is Not a product you are going to sell in America, And if you can’t sell it to people, politicians aren’t going to support it—they need votes, not warm fuzzy feelings.
People seem to like owning personal cars—and in some settings, particularly more rural, it is probably most efficient to own a crew-cab pickup than anything else.
But for suburban/urban driving, where population density and the availability of paved roads and rail lines crate more options ... I think Car-Light folks need to be thinking of how to make the car better suited to its uses—more efficient.
I am hoping AV minibuses will make a big difference—because getting kids to school creates a clogged structure every morning and afternoon, because work hours have to dovetail with school hours, and that means Everyone is on the road somewhere between 7 and 9 a.m.
02-26-18, 02:58 PM
#144
Prefers Cicero
Imagine commuters using fleets of electric-hybrid Elio-sized vehicles which plug in and recharge at transit stations (train and/or bus) or which drive right onto train-ferry cars (like Amtrac’s auto-train except enclosed) where people just sit in their cars for the ride?
https://www.zermatt.ch/en/arrival/Ar...berg-Car-Train
02-26-18, 03:07 PM
#145
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Not surprised people in other countries put it into action first. But glad to see at least some people think it isn't a stupid idea ... I have been carrying it around lo, these several decades.
Creative solutions ... less traffic, less pollution, and still the personal freedom and luggage-hauling and convenience people want.
America has some great ideals, but lately I think we have been failing at basic practicality.
Thanks very much for the link.
Creative solutions ... less traffic, less pollution, and still the personal freedom and luggage-hauling and convenience people want.
America has some great ideals, but lately I think we have been failing at basic practicality.
Thanks very much for the link.
02-26-18, 10:11 PM
#146
Prefers Cicero
obviously lowering the number of cars in use helps in a lot of ways, but there is no practical way (that I can see, and certainly nothing I have heard here) to eliminate cars.
...
Instead of looking to ban cars, make sure that everyone who wants to can get where he or she wants when he or she wants, while lessening pollution, resource use, and stress on the driving population.
Starting from there, instead of starting with the goal of banning cars or limiting cars, is more practical. Some people here can’t see that, i think—they think that since they don’t like having a cr no one should.
...
Instead of looking to ban cars, make sure that everyone who wants to can get where he or she wants when he or she wants, while lessening pollution, resource use, and stress on the driving population.
Starting from there, instead of starting with the goal of banning cars or limiting cars, is more practical. Some people here can’t see that, i think—they think that since they don’t like having a cr no one should.
02-27-18, 08:09 AM
#147
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I don't see all these people calling for a ban on all cars. And you are also advocating "limiting cars", just in a different way. How would you get people to buy into small, ultra light cars, and how would you spur the development of car trains? Regulation? Tax-funded incentives? Public sector investment?
I am not worried about the specifics of implementation.
When I look at human history, along with a lot of junk and stupidity, I see that a lot of times the better ideas get promoted and implemented, then improved, until they ar enio longer the best ideas, and they get replaced.
Politics and economics and scientific limitations and greed an pure human stupidity make this a toturued course, and a lot of good ideas never make it ... but still, we have less hunger, less disease, fewer deaths by violence, everywhere around the world.
As for the car-train—people saw a way to do a few good things at once. I am sure some peple favored moving tourists more quickly, and some favored less traffic on local roads, and some liked the idea of less car use ... and some liked the fact that they were getting the contract to build the cars, and the company which owns the rail cars likes making profits ....
Basically, it was a good enough idea that it could be explained to people across a wide spectrum in a way which made it seem appealing.
Whoever conceived and designed the Elio ... again, lots of different possible benefits, but in the end, a person thought there could be a market for this car.
When the Japanese auto industry targeted America Detroit laughed ... no one would buy those tiny underpowered little toys. Toyota and GM now regularly vie for top sales honors globally.
Some of it is government regulation either mandating, prohibiting, or allowing ... like allowing AVs, or prohibiting cars from some city centers. Some of it is public-sector investment—like when a city buys a fleet of Natural gas buses because they pollute less, project a greener image and incidentally are now cheaper to operate.
The city of Orlando, Florida has operated hydrogen-powered cars and solar-powered hydrogen refueling stations since about 2004.
Even investing in bike lanes and signage happens.
Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
When I see people saying “Everyone will be happy to ride the bus and walk a short distance” I see a non-starter. People want comfort and convenience, people want freedom. A lot of the target market for any vehicle or any transport system is necessarily going to be daily travelers between the ages of 25 and 65 (post-college workforce) and a lot of them will be 45-65.
And not all of them will be healthy, and not all of them will be active, and not all of them will want to walk a few blocks in cold, snow, rain, or intense heat. many will be carrying bags, often electronic devices, and a lot of the ladies might be wearing high heels.
Those folks are not going to ride a bus and walk if there is any better option—better meaning more comfortable, more convenient, taking less personal energy. Saying “It will do them good to get in shape” is just more nonsense. It would be Great if everyone exercised every day, at right, avoided environmental toxins, managed stress better .... Why can’t we all just get along,. right? But in the Real world ......
But selling the idea of economical transport which offers all the freedom and all the personal privacy and all the utility ... that is a lot easier. Some people will still want a big, expensive car for status or for any other reasons ... but not everyone wants a land-yacht.
As commuter cars become more prevalent—just like AV cars—they will gain acceptance. Closed-minded people can deny anything—there are still Flat-Earthers—but most people don’t have the energy, the focus, or the will to completely deny their surroundings.
I was tangentially involved in one of those “walkable community” developments—actually trying to stop it from being built, because it was in exactly the worst place in terms of environmental impact—but the city government and the development community, planning board, construction, real estate communities were all on board. They saw something they could Sell.
That is what it comes down to—a good idea is one that can be sold to the differing interests, an idea which has aspects which appeal to the various factions including the buying public.
Crazy ideas and massive social changes generally start with a few small, not particularly radical steps. My interest is often in seeing rational, sellable first steps, because while we all want to get to the promised land, we all need to start from right here where we are now.
Promoting ideas which people can accept and can be convinced to buy into seems to me the way to get the ball rolling.
Something else I was tangentially part of: reframing the environmental movement to attract business. Most business owners, no matter how “green” they might be as people—they have a responsibility to themselves their families and their employees to run the business profitably.
Asking businesses to take financial losses to be more green is a non-starter, because the business owners know that their competition, while polluting more, will earn more and take over the market.
On the other hand, explaining to businesses how energy waste is a huge drain on profits, how in the long run switching to production methods which used less-toxic or non-toxic chemicals saves money in compliance fees, fines, waste disposal fees, insurance ...
It is hard to convince a business owner who is just making it to try new techniques, now methods, consider investing in new machinery ... which will pay off, On paper, if the business doesn’t go broke in the transition.
But by appealing o the bottom line, by showing how buying all new light fixtures, using coated windows, adding insulation, producing less expensive-to-handle toxic waste, pre-production recycling ... could Save a business real money and a good RoI ....
A that time we were selling green business as the Competitive Edge. ‘You and your competition have the same costs, the same payroll, the same profit margins, and you are cutting it about as thin as possible—we know this. But what if you could cut a sizeable portion out of your operating costs every quarter?> What if your energy cost dropped ten percent? every year? What if both your raw materials and waste-hauling budget dropped five percent each quarter? You’d be way ahead of the competition! You could expand advertising, open new stores in new locations, lower prices to undercut the competition.
“That cost savings would be your Competitive edge.
“And going greener can get you all that—and more.”
The same ideas we couldn’t promote as hippy tree-huggers, we could successfully promote as savvy, future-thinking businessmen. And it worked.
Will any of the ideas I mentioned work? Will any be adopted on a wide scale? Who knows or cares?
What I want is the best ideas to be packaged in the best ways so they Will be adopted sooner and more widely.
But, whatever. I am old and I will not be here forever. And I can still ride my bike.
02-27-18, 02:49 PM
#148
Prefers Cicero
When the Japanese auto industry targeted America Detroit laughed ... no one would buy those tiny underpowered little toys. Toyota and GM now regularly vie for top sales honors globally.
Some of it is government regulation either mandating, prohibiting, or allowing ... like allowing AVs, or prohibiting cars from some city centers. Some of it is public-sector investment—like when a city buys a fleet of Natural gas buses because they pollute less, project a greener image and incidentally are now cheaper to operate.
...
Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
Some of it is government regulation either mandating, prohibiting, or allowing ... like allowing AVs, or prohibiting cars from some city centers. Some of it is public-sector investment—like when a city buys a fleet of Natural gas buses because they pollute less, project a greener image and incidentally are now cheaper to operate.
...
Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
I was tangentially involved in one of those “walkable community” developments—actually trying to stop it from being built, because it was in exactly the worst place in terms of environmental impact—but the city government and the development community, planning board, construction, real estate communities were all on board. They saw something they could Sell.
I care, if I'm going to be roped into paying for it and potentially suffering or witnessing harm as a result, just like you cared when you tried to stop what you thought was a bad idea.
Last edited by cooker; 02-27-18 at 02:55 PM.
02-27-18, 05:08 PM
#149
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Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
You should care about the implementation. Private businesses do want to make money but they don't care if it is a good idea or has social benefits or is competitive, if they can get the public to do the investing and take the risks, and they only have to worry about profit.
Are you deeply concerned about every single industry, business, government proposal? of course not. You basically wait until and if there is a junction where you can actually cast a vote, write a letter,. buy a product ... otherwise it is all done regardless of what we want by and large.
Have you gotten many nationwide initiatives passed, or maybe convinced GM to take a new direction? But ...you Deeply care about every single government initiative from the town council to the country commission to the state and then the Federal government right?
Do you go to every town council planning and zoning hearing? You Should ..... right?
Tell me about the last seven proposals or campaigns you were part of .... Which government officials did you lobby?
I pick my fights. I have a lever of a given length ... so i find where I can actually make something move, or have a chance to. how about you?
And what made you think I was in charge?
All I know is, if you want to sell “green,” you will get a lot more customers Not selling it just as “green.” Most people will no sacrifice anything unless they get something better .... and sometimes you can convince them that “less” is better. But as a rule it will sell better if you can sell them something they actually want to buy.
You seem not to grasp that people have been thinking of this stuff for a Long time. Seriously ... think about it ... if I have actually been doing the stuff I talked about ... selling businesses on energy efficiency and non-toxic production methods and pre=production recycling .... do you think the idea of environmental impact is foreign to me?
What I have learned ... in fact a lot of what that post was about ... was How to sell people stuff with lower environmental impact without playing up the hair-shirt, sacrifice, suffer-for-the-good, aspects. I don’t know how that got by you.
Also, the development went into the flood plain by a protected river, so all the fertilizers and other runoff goes right into the river, and when there is rain .... and sooner or later when there is a really big storm the neighborhoods will flood, and the residents will start screaming and everything in their garages and closets and cars and everything will end up in the river ... which is a “protected” river, but it gets unprotected whenever someone proposes a development like this.
No big deal.
I have been playing this game for a long time. I have lost a lot, and won a few ... but overall, lost in totality because our massive toxic culture continues on .... and spreads .... and whether we will get ahead of the destruction curve I have no idea. How it might play out, I have no idea.
The impact any individual can have is small .... people either need to organize, gather enormous wealth, or act very, very strategically.
Right now you are doubtless paying for many, many things you would rather not be paying for. Can you live with that?
02-27-18, 05:21 PM
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How did that car-train in Switzerland get built? Why is a commuter car liek the Elio being developed?
I am not worried about the specifics of implementation.
When I look at human history, along with a lot of junk and stupidity, I see that a lot of times the better ideas get promoted and implemented, then improved, until they ar enio longer the best ideas, and they get replaced.
Politics and economics and scientific limitations and greed an pure human stupidity make this a toturued course, and a lot of good ideas never make it ... but still, we have less hunger, less disease, fewer deaths by violence, everywhere around the world.
As for the car-train—people saw a way to do a few good things at once. I am sure some peple favored moving tourists more quickly, and some favored less traffic on local roads, and some liked the idea of less car use ... and some liked the fact that they were getting the contract to build the cars, and the company which owns the rail cars likes making profits ....
Basically, it was a good enough idea that it could be explained to people across a wide spectrum in a way which made it seem appealing.
Whoever conceived and designed the Elio ... again, lots of different possible benefits, but in the end, a person thought there could be a market for this car.
When the Japanese auto industry targeted America Detroit laughed ... no one would buy those tiny underpowered little toys. Toyota and GM now regularly vie for top sales honors globally.
Some of it is government regulation either mandating, prohibiting, or allowing ... like allowing AVs, or prohibiting cars from some city centers. Some of it is public-sector investment—like when a city buys a fleet of Natural gas buses because they pollute less, project a greener image and incidentally are now cheaper to operate.
The city of Orlando, Florida has operated hydrogen-powered cars and solar-powered hydrogen refueling stations since about 2004.
Even investing in bike lanes and signage happens.
Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
When I see people saying “Everyone will be happy to ride the bus and walk a short distance” I see a non-starter. People want comfort and convenience, people want freedom. A lot of the target market for any vehicle or any transport system is necessarily going to be daily travelers between the ages of 25 and 65 (post-college workforce) and a lot of them will be 45-65.
And not all of them will be healthy, and not all of them will be active, and not all of them will want to walk a few blocks in cold, snow, rain, or intense heat. many will be carrying bags, often electronic devices, and a lot of the ladies might be wearing high heels.
Those folks are not going to ride a bus and walk if there is any better option—better meaning more comfortable, more convenient, taking less personal energy. Saying “It will do them good to get in shape” is just more nonsense. It would be Great if everyone exercised every day, at right, avoided environmental toxins, managed stress better .... Why can’t we all just get along,. right? But in the Real world ......
But selling the idea of economical transport which offers all the freedom and all the personal privacy and all the utility ... that is a lot easier. Some people will still want a big, expensive car for status or for any other reasons ... but not everyone wants a land-yacht.
As commuter cars become more prevalent—just like AV cars—they will gain acceptance. Closed-minded people can deny anything—there are still Flat-Earthers—but most people don’t have the energy, the focus, or the will to completely deny their surroundings.
I was tangentially involved in one of those “walkable community” developments—actually trying to stop it from being built, because it was in exactly the worst place in terms of environmental impact—but the city government and the development community, planning board, construction, real estate communities were all on board. They saw something they could Sell.
That is what it comes down to—a good idea is one that can be sold to the differing interests, an idea which has aspects which appeal to the various factions including the buying public.
Crazy ideas and massive social changes generally start with a few small, not particularly radical steps. My interest is often in seeing rational, sellable first steps, because while we all want to get to the promised land, we all need to start from right here where we are now.
Promoting ideas which people can accept and can be convinced to buy into seems to me the way to get the ball rolling.
Something else I was tangentially part of: reframing the environmental movement to attract business. Most business owners, no matter how “green” they might be as people—they have a responsibility to themselves their families and their employees to run the business profitably.
Asking businesses to take financial losses to be more green is a non-starter, because the business owners know that their competition, while polluting more, will earn more and take over the market.
On the other hand, explaining to businesses how energy waste is a huge drain on profits, how in the long run switching to production methods which used less-toxic or non-toxic chemicals saves money in compliance fees, fines, waste disposal fees, insurance ...
It is hard to convince a business owner who is just making it to try new techniques, now methods, consider investing in new machinery ... which will pay off, On paper, if the business doesn’t go broke in the transition.
But by appealing o the bottom line, by showing how buying all new light fixtures, using coated windows, adding insulation, producing less expensive-to-handle toxic waste, pre-production recycling ... could Save a business real money and a good RoI ....
A that time we were selling green business as the Competitive Edge. ‘You and your competition have the same costs, the same payroll, the same profit margins, and you are cutting it about as thin as possible—we know this. But what if you could cut a sizeable portion out of your operating costs every quarter?> What if your energy cost dropped ten percent? every year? What if both your raw materials and waste-hauling budget dropped five percent each quarter? You’d be way ahead of the competition! You could expand advertising, open new stores in new locations, lower prices to undercut the competition.
“That cost savings would be your Competitive edge.
“And going greener can get you all that—and more.”
The same ideas we couldn’t promote as hippy tree-huggers, we could successfully promote as savvy, future-thinking businessmen. And it worked.
Will any of the ideas I mentioned work? Will any be adopted on a wide scale? Who knows or cares?
What I want is the best ideas to be packaged in the best ways so they Will be adopted sooner and more widely.
But, whatever. I am old and I will not be here forever. And I can still ride my bike.
I am not worried about the specifics of implementation.
When I look at human history, along with a lot of junk and stupidity, I see that a lot of times the better ideas get promoted and implemented, then improved, until they ar enio longer the best ideas, and they get replaced.
Politics and economics and scientific limitations and greed an pure human stupidity make this a toturued course, and a lot of good ideas never make it ... but still, we have less hunger, less disease, fewer deaths by violence, everywhere around the world.
As for the car-train—people saw a way to do a few good things at once. I am sure some peple favored moving tourists more quickly, and some favored less traffic on local roads, and some liked the idea of less car use ... and some liked the fact that they were getting the contract to build the cars, and the company which owns the rail cars likes making profits ....
Basically, it was a good enough idea that it could be explained to people across a wide spectrum in a way which made it seem appealing.
Whoever conceived and designed the Elio ... again, lots of different possible benefits, but in the end, a person thought there could be a market for this car.
When the Japanese auto industry targeted America Detroit laughed ... no one would buy those tiny underpowered little toys. Toyota and GM now regularly vie for top sales honors globally.
Some of it is government regulation either mandating, prohibiting, or allowing ... like allowing AVs, or prohibiting cars from some city centers. Some of it is public-sector investment—like when a city buys a fleet of Natural gas buses because they pollute less, project a greener image and incidentally are now cheaper to operate.
The city of Orlando, Florida has operated hydrogen-powered cars and solar-powered hydrogen refueling stations since about 2004.
Even investing in bike lanes and signage happens.
Public-private partnerships are probably the most likely way forward, for projects which will benefit greatly from some infrastructure changes but which no government is willing to undertake alone—spread the risk and if it fails, less grief from the taxpayers.
But the big driving factor is private enterprise. A good idea has to be sellable—it has to attract investors, then it has to attract customers. And the customers need to see some benefits beyond any cost or any tradeoff.
When I see people saying “Everyone will be happy to ride the bus and walk a short distance” I see a non-starter. People want comfort and convenience, people want freedom. A lot of the target market for any vehicle or any transport system is necessarily going to be daily travelers between the ages of 25 and 65 (post-college workforce) and a lot of them will be 45-65.
And not all of them will be healthy, and not all of them will be active, and not all of them will want to walk a few blocks in cold, snow, rain, or intense heat. many will be carrying bags, often electronic devices, and a lot of the ladies might be wearing high heels.
Those folks are not going to ride a bus and walk if there is any better option—better meaning more comfortable, more convenient, taking less personal energy. Saying “It will do them good to get in shape” is just more nonsense. It would be Great if everyone exercised every day, at right, avoided environmental toxins, managed stress better .... Why can’t we all just get along,. right? But in the Real world ......
But selling the idea of economical transport which offers all the freedom and all the personal privacy and all the utility ... that is a lot easier. Some people will still want a big, expensive car for status or for any other reasons ... but not everyone wants a land-yacht.
As commuter cars become more prevalent—just like AV cars—they will gain acceptance. Closed-minded people can deny anything—there are still Flat-Earthers—but most people don’t have the energy, the focus, or the will to completely deny their surroundings.
I was tangentially involved in one of those “walkable community” developments—actually trying to stop it from being built, because it was in exactly the worst place in terms of environmental impact—but the city government and the development community, planning board, construction, real estate communities were all on board. They saw something they could Sell.
That is what it comes down to—a good idea is one that can be sold to the differing interests, an idea which has aspects which appeal to the various factions including the buying public.
Crazy ideas and massive social changes generally start with a few small, not particularly radical steps. My interest is often in seeing rational, sellable first steps, because while we all want to get to the promised land, we all need to start from right here where we are now.
Promoting ideas which people can accept and can be convinced to buy into seems to me the way to get the ball rolling.
Something else I was tangentially part of: reframing the environmental movement to attract business. Most business owners, no matter how “green” they might be as people—they have a responsibility to themselves their families and their employees to run the business profitably.
Asking businesses to take financial losses to be more green is a non-starter, because the business owners know that their competition, while polluting more, will earn more and take over the market.
On the other hand, explaining to businesses how energy waste is a huge drain on profits, how in the long run switching to production methods which used less-toxic or non-toxic chemicals saves money in compliance fees, fines, waste disposal fees, insurance ...
It is hard to convince a business owner who is just making it to try new techniques, now methods, consider investing in new machinery ... which will pay off, On paper, if the business doesn’t go broke in the transition.
But by appealing o the bottom line, by showing how buying all new light fixtures, using coated windows, adding insulation, producing less expensive-to-handle toxic waste, pre-production recycling ... could Save a business real money and a good RoI ....
A that time we were selling green business as the Competitive Edge. ‘You and your competition have the same costs, the same payroll, the same profit margins, and you are cutting it about as thin as possible—we know this. But what if you could cut a sizeable portion out of your operating costs every quarter?> What if your energy cost dropped ten percent? every year? What if both your raw materials and waste-hauling budget dropped five percent each quarter? You’d be way ahead of the competition! You could expand advertising, open new stores in new locations, lower prices to undercut the competition.
“That cost savings would be your Competitive edge.
“And going greener can get you all that—and more.”
The same ideas we couldn’t promote as hippy tree-huggers, we could successfully promote as savvy, future-thinking businessmen. And it worked.
Will any of the ideas I mentioned work? Will any be adopted on a wide scale? Who knows or cares?
What I want is the best ideas to be packaged in the best ways so they Will be adopted sooner and more widely.
But, whatever. I am old and I will not be here forever. And I can still ride my bike.
Maybe the most important part of this whole long post was the word, "Sellable" Maybe more of an idea but I digress, The biggest road block most have is the one size fits all stretch suit idea that the government can force people to do what is good for them, based on what some super minority feels is best and people will like it. Such an idea is not selling it is forcing and sooner or later people will rebel. The whole idea that giving the choice people will like each other enough to like the same things is to give up their individuality. How do you deal with successful workplace advancement? I can't picture a Microsoft upper manager riding a bike to a meeting in a $1500.00 suit. If there is a market for getting your own Johnny cab, Ion Bike, or super cruise party limo companies will sell them EV self driving or not. And people will buy them. Can that be stopped or even should it? Will we all become one voting block? Not likely. Will we all be willing to not buy the next toy invented because it hurts someone's feelings and stresses society? Not likely either.
Last edited by Mobile 155; 02-27-18 at 05:35 PM.
