WGB 

Gentleman wants to sell me a Raleigh Super Course for $150. I don't know the year but do see cottered cranks. Clearly needs new tires. Based only on the photo the seat looks ok, but might be dried out. I don't have a drive side photo but I am leery of the plastic capped shifters, never liked those.

Any advice on viewing an old Brooks seat (apart from obvious cracks), what other issues to look for?

The cottered cranks suggest Raleigh threading. Per Sheldon Cooper "Generally speaking, Raleighs that use cottered cranks have Raleigh 26 TPI threading for both the bottom bracket and the headset. These include all Nottingham-built bicycles sold with a coaster brake or internal-gear hub, as well as lower-priced derailer-equipped models up through the Super Course, which had a frame of plain-gauge Reynolds 531 tubing." If the BB threads are 26TPI are there any issues with the headset as well?

If it is in really good shape when I see it (needs only grease on seat tube and stem, new tires and tubes and possibly bar tape) I would be in. If it needs anything weird and wonderful I expect I'd be out. Clearly switching out the 27 inch rims for 700 rims would be a hassle, again per Cooper "The forks used on most Nottingham Raleighs have keyhole-shaped axle slots. These are designed to fit Raleigh hubs, with thin (5/16") solid axles and wheel retention shoulders on the cones." Curiously, the rims shown on this bike have quick disconnects which suggest either an earlier axle replacement or something else.

I think (based on the cottered cranks) it's Raleigh made but the QR's are out of place.

If I go look I will take a list of measurements and a digital caliper and measure BB, seat tube and stem sizes.

I was thinking not a bad price for a flipper or might take it to the Canadian Vintage Bike Show in two weeks to see if there is a trade to be made.


Any ideas on value? If it didn't have the cottered cranks I'd be more excited.

WGB

bertinjim 

WGB -
That is definitely worth $150 CDN. The tape on the bars is original plus the lugs and pump pegs add a little something extra and differ from the usual Nervex Pro or Capellas. These SC versions took standard hubs like the QR Normandy HF shown and can be swapped out for other wheels if required. The cottered cranks look like the OEM steel Stronglights and are swapable as well, as I have done so on a former SC I once owned. Brooks? Proofide top and bottom and let it soak in and then good to go, I would bet. TIres- try Panaracer 27 x 1 1/4 Paselas from Niagara Falls Cycle in NF, New York. The bike is a Carlton from the frame's seat tube label. It will likely have a Wxxxxxxxxx prefixed serial number on the BB indicating Worksop production. Finally, those Simplex Prestige shift levers are junk. I have an extra pair of Simplex alloy, hooded Criterium levers (matches the rear Criterium derailleur) and if the bike fits and you buy it, I will drive out to Pelham with them and give them to you. Nice bike, fair price (Kijiji Ontario examples are $400 - 500) and in exceptional condition.

desconhecido 

Looks like the original B17N saddle (narrow B17). Judging from the condition of the bike as it appears, it's seen little use and is likely serviceable. Nice saddle if you have narrow sit bones (ischial tuberosity). Brooks saddles seem to adopt the width of their users' butts pretty fast and the saddle on that bike doesn't show any dimples, so it's probably been lightly used.

The hubs, Normandy Sports, are likely original -- not to worry about odd axle diameters. Bottom bracket: probably it's a standard threading (68mm bb width, 24 tpi cups). You can check -- every 26tpi Raleigh BB I've seen measures 70mm or so, not 68.

Fork will, in all probablility, be Nottingham standard 26 tpi which is only a problem if you want to replace the headset. I'm not a fan of the Nottingham headset, but, even we haters must admit that there are about a bazillion of those headsets out there turning to the right and left every day without problem.

Ditch the kick stand or it will damage the chainstays eventually.

With the cottered crankset, that bike is 73 or earlier, I think. It looks pretty darned nice for a 73 -- good paint, good graphics. Chrome looks good, plain steel galvanized spokes look good. That sucker is worth $150 all day long.

Can't see the drive side, but it might have Simplex plastic derailleurs which are prone to breakage (mostly front, but the rear as well). Replacing them with Raleigh branded Suntour is not hard nor expensive.

Buy it.

seatpost is steel and unlikely to be stuck. Seatpost nut diameter is odd size -- small adjustable wrench or a special "Raleigh wrench" is needed.

GB stem looks real good, unlikely to be stuck, but check.

randyjawa 

I live in Canada and that is a good price. Get the bike and enjoy. The side stand can be and issue. It is common for such clamp on stands to damage (crush) the chain stays a bit or even a lot. Still worth the price, though, in my opinion.

WGB 

Thank you guys for the quick reply.

I should have said it was Yankee dollars but even with the premium I suspect it's worth the drive. Plan to go tonight and view.
For Bertinjim, why not bike and meet instead?

Ps Dementia runs in my family and I apparently I just started because I didn't notice the *%@($* kickstand!!!!

T-Mar

+1, that is a very good price even in $US, ,especially given the OEM bar tape and hoods. Raleigh was probably the second most desirable bicycle during the boom, after Peugeot. The Super Course was low mid-range for the era due to the aluminum rims and Reynolds 531 plain gauge main tubes. It was positioned just above Raleigh's best selling boom model, the Grand Prix. However, it's was priced just out of reach for the average consumer and so there are lots of Record and Grand Prix owners who yearned for one and are willing to pay premium prices for one in excellent condition.

All the boom Super Course that I've seen have had standard BSC/English threading in the bottom bracket shell. Headsets could be Raleigh 26TPI or BSC/English but this one appears to have the Raleigh proprietary headset. I agree wholeheartedly on the shift lever replacement, if you're going to keep it as a rider. The Delrin material used in the levers was the biggest contributing factor to the vague, high effort shifting of the Simplex Prestige derailleurs. Appears to be a 1973 model.

randyjawa 

The stand might not present an issue. The chain stays were not exotic thin tubing, lessening the chance of severe damage. Best to take a 15mm wrench to remove the stand and have a look before making a deal. That is what I would do and then decide.

rustystrings61 

The decals look like 1973, but the lugs are Bocama No.14 Pattern II instead of the usually seen Carlton Capellas from that year, or the Prugnats that followed with the Mk.II. Oddly enough, a couple of 25.5-in examples with the c.1970-71 oval headbadges have shown up recently in other BF Classic threads on Raleigh Super Courses. This is the only one in this size I can recall seeing - I'll start watching for that. It's a nice enough lugset that Allegro used them for all of their 531-lugged bikes c.1960-76 or thereabouts. This one looks box-stock to me.

Riding the clunker challenge a couple of years ago led me to reappraise 27 x 1 1/4 at 70 psi - they are awesome on imperfect roads and glide over bumpy surfaces without really giving up any speed, at least under me. My Normandy-hubbed 27-in alloy wheels, when freshly lubed and repacked, shocked my by how well and how smoothly they ran.

Echoing randyjawa, the stays and forks are basic Raleigh tubing, and only the main tubes are plain-gauge 531. That said, these bikes have a cult following, and phrases like "rides lighter than it is" are heard a lot about them. I have one waiting for me in another state if I can ever just work out the timing for a hand-off ...

bertinjim 

WGB-

E-mailed you.

bikemig 

That's a lovely color; I'd buy it just for the paint job if it were my size.

noglider 

That's a 1973 or 1974 model, a good year for that model. It looks all original. First of all, make sure it fits you. Second of all, make sure the stem and seatpost can be removed, because if they can't, you have a big repair job ahead.

It's a really nice bike with a great ride quality, but it came with cheap components. It's not just the shifters. It came with plastic Simplex derailleurs. But if they don't work, you can change them. I have a 1971 or 1972 Super Course, and everything except the headset has been changed at least once. I like the bike a lot.

WGB 

Thanks to all - grabbed it tonight.

It's way to small for me but only other potential buyer was going to make it a fixie. I thought it should be saved.

I explained to the seller that it needed new tires, that if anything went wrong I would have to write to England for parts and that it had cottered cranks and needed a good cleaning.

He countered with the original leather seat, I countered seat was scuffed (see photo). He countered it had original pump. It may well be (it says Apex Inflator Company Ltd Ultralite - Made in England)

We settled on $125.

Took quick photos as sun was setting.

Will begin the big clean tomorrow and take better pictures.

Note seller has a 21 inch frame Fuji S12 that also needs a good clean and brake lever hoods.

Seller took a liking to me but I only brought enough cash to meet his max. Oh well I would have been hit with duty at the border for sure if I got two bikes......

noglider 

By the way, my Super Course has standard English threads in the BB. I don't know about the headset, as I haven't messed with it. I believe some Super Courses have Raleigh threaded BBs.

It sometimes pains me to see a nice geared bike turned into a fixie, but this bike's components are not special, so go ahead and fixify it if you think it will sell better that way.

Please route both brake cables above (not below) the handlebar, and move the levers up the handlebar a bit. The assembler botched these things.

desconhecido 

No doubt that there might be some with 26tpi bottom brackets, but every Worksop bike I've ever messed with had 24 tpi no matter that some had cottered cranks. Not a large sample, for sure. The 26 tpi steerer and 27.0mm crown race did make it to Worksop, though. The recent thread on the poorly brazed Motobecane fork caused me to go inspect two of the Raleigh Super Course MK II forks that are not on bikes right now and the Moto was brazed better. The more I consider them, the more I hate Nottingham forks and the headsets they rode in on.

desconhecido 

When God invented the unicyle, he realized right away that he had made a terrible mistake, He pondered it for awhile, but found it too much trouble to correct, so he just made some people that like them.


Not experienced in riding pigs, so I'll defer to your experience.

WGB 

I have owned single speeds but have never bought into converting bikes to fixies. I prefer them the way they were born to be.

PS it does hesitate on the shifts but is as smooth as silk when it gets there.....

desconhecido 

Looks to me like you have a very nice Super Course and at a fair price. It still needs to be serviced and lubed and all that, but it will be a real fine example when finished.

Looks to be a 54 cm frame. We have three SC MKIIs, one 52 cm and two 54 cm. Too bad it's too small for you.

One of our SC MKII bikes is a 74 model bought in early 75. It came with a 5 speed Maillard 14-28 freewheel and whatever chain was used at the time. Somewhere along the line we installed a Suntour ultra 6 (13-28) and Sedisport chain and that made the shifting much better. The original chain is not nearly as flexible. If you replace the freewheel with a "modern" 5 speed and install a 6/7/8 speed chain, you'll get better shifting.

WGB 

I loaded new photos but didn't upload so trying again

New bearings and grease for headset as old bearings had no grease
New cables all around but re-used the old housing as i had only black for replacements
Stripped down to frame, cleaned and re-built (thank God for my ultrasonic cleaner!!)
Seat tube (14mm bolt head) easy release for seat post.
Stem expander bolt stuck but loosened after gentle bang
Wheels spin freely as do cranks but cannot remove pedals. Need a bolted down Park 2 with a cheater bar, no luck with PD Blaster
I was surprised that Weinmann hubs had only stickers to identify them, as did the Nisi-Evian rims.
Tires were Raleigh but broke apart when I used the tire levers - not safe to have ridden with them on, even for 5 feet
FD (Simplex Model LJ23) is a really weird plastic/metal model with a tiny hole for the cable. This derailleur is probably the cause for the end of the British Empire.

I haven't scrubbed the freewheel as I had been sitting outside for so long I was sun burnt. Will also need to shine the aluminum rims and spokes.
Small scuffs from kick stand but not rust holes. Pinholes to chrome underside of chainstays.


No tires so haven't cut brake cables/derailleur cables


Carlton sticker



Possibly the weirdest FD I have ever seen! Possibly the worst British invention ever!


No stamps only stickers!!



small scuffs under chain stays from stand

WGB 

Had 10 photos so must add separate post for the seat.

First photo is top as cleaned up.

Second shows underneath

Third shows as it was when got it.

My concern is that the seat is in great condition (excepting the scuff shown - can I use shoe dye??)

I haven't touched the tension screw, nor have I oiled the underside.
Having said that the seat seems really soft, I thought these seats were rock hard normally. Do i keep applying oil???




Scuff still there - do I use dye???


I believe I don't use oil here.


As it was....

bertinjim 

WGB-

WG 40?0864 W = Worksop built G = May 4 = 1974 0?0864 = production sequence number

jj1091

The British are just happy that the blame gets put on the French, not them. Nice restoration efforts, a couple of tires and tubes, and it's done!

Slightspeed

Nice looking bike. I love my '73. The paint and decals on yours are amazing. I built mine from a spray painted, and fixified (fixie-defiled?) bare frame with a stuck seat post and wrong fork. All cable guides were ground off, and everything was sprayed pea soup green. I spent way too much on paint, frame restoration and decals, but its worth every penny to me. I also have a generally considered higher end 1964 Legnano Roma, and the SC gives up nothing in ride quality or speed to it. Mine has been updated with Suntour shifters, derailleurs, Sugino alloy triple and 700c wheels. Too bad yours is too small, it's a beautiful bike. Nice find!

noglider 

@Slightspeed, what fork does your Super Course have? The whole bike looks great.

Slightspeed

I found a $39 NOS chrome Rampar fork on Ebay. It is a 26 tpi, so all the headset stuff went right on. It doesn't have the correct crown, but is Tange and rides very well. It's for 27" rim, and I got it before I switched to 700c, so there is a bigger than usual gap to the tire. It rides very well. I had the upper part painted along with the frame. I was able to salvage the chrome on the rear stays after stripping off the spray paint. Thanks for the nice comments.

rustystrings61 

If your hubs have the red Normandy Competition stickers, then that makes me think someone substituted the wheelset normally used for a Gran Sport. Stock hubs on these bikes were the humbler Normandy Sport - unless someone has stuck Competition stickers on top of Normandy Sport hubs. They are different, with differently-shaped cones. Lots of internal parts for Normandy Sport, the Competition parts are allegedly extinct. They used the Competition hub for the Raleigh Competition, if memory serves ...