Rim recommendations for 35-44c tires
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Rim recommendations for 35-44c tires
I'm looking for rim/wheel recommendations for running 35-44 tires on my cross bike. I do NOT have disc brakes.
Currently I'm using Velocity A23 rims (18mm inner diameter). I find 32mm tire to be the sweet spot for those rims. I also tried 35 (both Panaracer T-serv) - it was OK but I wasn't in love. When I ran pressures low enough to be comfortable I found the 35's less pleasant than the 32 because of the extra side to side flop. People say I can run a 40mm tire on these rims but I can't imagine I will like it.
So I'm thinking a 22-23 internal diameter rim for 35-44c? Does this sound right? Any specific rim recommendations that have brake tracks so they work with my archaic cantilever brakes.
Or should I declare that this is a mistake to invest in this bike, and I need a new carbon fiber bike with disc brakes?
Currently I'm using Velocity A23 rims (18mm inner diameter). I find 32mm tire to be the sweet spot for those rims. I also tried 35 (both Panaracer T-serv) - it was OK but I wasn't in love. When I ran pressures low enough to be comfortable I found the 35's less pleasant than the 32 because of the extra side to side flop. People say I can run a 40mm tire on these rims but I can't imagine I will like it.
So I'm thinking a 22-23 internal diameter rim for 35-44c? Does this sound right? Any specific rim recommendations that have brake tracks so they work with my archaic cantilever brakes.
Or should I declare that this is a mistake to invest in this bike, and I need a new carbon fiber bike with disc brakes?
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i've run up to 40c on A23s just fine, but its up to you do decide if there is excessive flop. You'll have to look to MTB rims to get something that wide with a braking surface in a 29er size which is going to be hard, maybe like the velocity cliffhanger
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I am using Velocity Aileron rims with my Compass 44s. They have a 20mm internal and a 25mm external measurement. I have been very happy with them.
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What pressures did you run? I found that even with 35's at reasonable pressures (avoiding too much drop or squish) the ride was more uncomfortable than with 32's.
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I've seen charts like that, but they haven't aligned with my experiences. Maybe I should try 35c or bigger again on my A23's and confirm whether there's actually a problem.
I've read that the more supple the casing is, the less the rim size matters. The theory being that the rim is held up more by tire pressure rather than the tire sidewall.
I've read that the more supple the casing is, the less the rim size matters. The theory being that the rim is held up more by tire pressure rather than the tire sidewall.
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no more than 40psi. closer to 30psi on gravel. what pressures are you running? The biggest issue it seems is that your 35(T-serv) is a tank of a tire. Try something more supple like the panaracer gravel king or some of the compass offerings.
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I emailed light bicycle and they recommended these 21mm inner diameter rims.
https://www.lightbicycle.com/700C-V-...ompatible.html
I'm not convinced I want to deal with rim brakes on a carbon wheel though.
https://www.lightbicycle.com/700C-V-...ompatible.html
I'm not convinced I want to deal with rim brakes on a carbon wheel though.
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I run 40mm tube tires on Archetype rims that are 17.5 internal and 23mm external. Cant say I think about the tires at all from comfort or feel perspectives. They help me go where i want when i want without thought. I run higher psi than most people(about 55ish), but i am 235 so that is expected.
Much wider than 23mm gets into 29er rim territory, from what ive seen before. Thats fine and all, some just might be a bit heavier/overbuilt.
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I'm a little scared of the compass after hearing about their complete lack of protection, but maybe they're worth a shot.
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https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/11861...tiffer-harsher
So with larger tires, to get the same comfort level you simply lower the pressure. However if you lower the pressure too much, particularly on a narrow rim, the tire starts to feel weird. Mushy, floppy, and less precise.
I haven't done enough experimentation to be an expert, but I distinctly remember replacing my 35C panaracer with a 32 on the front wheel and being much happier with the balance of comfort and handling. I blamed the wheel width, but maybe I should have blamed the T-serve casing.
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I mean that at the same tire pressure, the 35 is harsher over bumps than the 32. It's the casing tension phenomenon
https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/11861...tiffer-harsher
So with larger tires, to get the same comfort level you simply lower the pressure. However if you lower the pressure too much, particularly on a narrow rim, the tire starts to feel weird. Mushy, floppy, and less precise.
I haven't done enough experimentation to be an expert, but I distinctly remember replacing my 35C panaracer with a 32 on the front wheel and being much happier with the balance of comfort and handling. I blamed the wheel width, but maybe I should have blamed the T-serve casing.
https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/11861...tiffer-harsher
So with larger tires, to get the same comfort level you simply lower the pressure. However if you lower the pressure too much, particularly on a narrow rim, the tire starts to feel weird. Mushy, floppy, and less precise.
I haven't done enough experimentation to be an expert, but I distinctly remember replacing my 35C panaracer with a 32 on the front wheel and being much happier with the balance of comfort and handling. I blamed the wheel width, but maybe I should have blamed the T-serve casing.
Not sure what TPI the tserv has, but my tires are 120tpi Clement MSO in 40mm. Pretty supple casing for an intended purpose gravel tire.
Perhaps a wider more supple tire will be more comfortable. Pretty much every drop bar gravel bike I see has rims that are in the 22-25mm wide range and run 38-45mm tires. Seems like a common range that works well for varied riders, at least around me.
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Perhaps a wider more supple tire will be more comfortable.
Originally Posted by compass faq
With supple Rene Herse tires, it doesn’t matter how wide the rim is, as long as it’s no wider than the tire (outside width). If the rim is too wide, the tire can blow off, because it doesn’t properly engage with the hook on the rim’s sidewall. Rene Herse tires up to 44 mm wide can be run on rims as narrow as 20 mm. For wider Rene Herse tires, we recommend a minimum rim width of 23 mm.
You may have heard that matched rim and tire widths make the tire sidewalls more vertical, so they bear more of the bike and rider’s weight. This works with stiff sidewalls and allows running a lower tire pressure, but also decreases shock absorption and comfort.
With supple tires, almost the entire weight is supported by the air pressure of the tires. Whether the sidewalls are vertical or bulge makes very little difference. The most extreme case is a tubular tire, which touches the rim only in a very narrow spot, yet offers great handling and comfort.
You may have heard that matched rim and tire widths make the tire sidewalls more vertical, so they bear more of the bike and rider’s weight. This works with stiff sidewalls and allows running a lower tire pressure, but also decreases shock absorption and comfort.
With supple tires, almost the entire weight is supported by the air pressure of the tires. Whether the sidewalls are vertical or bulge makes very little difference. The most extreme case is a tubular tire, which touches the rim only in a very narrow spot, yet offers great handling and comfort.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Pretty much every drop bar gravel bike I see has rims that are in the 22-25mm wide range and run 38-45mm tires. Seems like a common range that works well for varied riders, at least around me.
#14
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Gotcha.
Not sure what TPI the tserv has, but my tires are 120tpi Clement MSO in 40mm. Pretty supple casing for an intended purpose gravel tire.
Perhaps a wider more supple tire will be more comfortable. Pretty much every drop bar gravel bike I see has rims that are in the 22-25mm wide range and run 38-45mm tires. Seems like a common range that works well for varied riders, at least around me.
Not sure what TPI the tserv has, but my tires are 120tpi Clement MSO in 40mm. Pretty supple casing for an intended purpose gravel tire.
Perhaps a wider more supple tire will be more comfortable. Pretty much every drop bar gravel bike I see has rims that are in the 22-25mm wide range and run 38-45mm tires. Seems like a common range that works well for varied riders, at least around me.
One of my friends ran 35-ish T-Servs on his gravel bike for a while. The two of us could ride together just fine on our road bikes. But on our gravel bikes, me on my 53mm Compass tires, him on his T-Servs, on paved stretches he could hardly cling to my draft.
What kind of flat are you concerned about in particular?
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Junk in the road. Glass, metal bits, etc.
I just read this comment about the large Compas tires. He's talking about tubless, but in general this is what I want to avoid.
Gravel Cycling Forum | Riding Gravel
I just read this comment about the large Compas tires. He's talking about tubless, but in general this is what I want to avoid.
I have the Compass Barlow Pass (700x38) tires and once I set them up tubeless I hated them. Why you ask? Some of these things have already been mentioned a bit by other posters:
- Super supple sidewalls - too much so actually. The tires once set up tubeless were very tall, BIG light bulb profile, and the thin sidewalls made them a bit "squirrelly." Lots of side to side when you jam on the pedals at higher speeds. (This is on 21mm internal width rims.)
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I've seen charts like that, but they haven't aligned with my experiences. Maybe I should try 35c or bigger again on my A23's and confirm whether there's actually a problem.
I've read that the more supple the casing is, the less the rim size matters. The theory being that the rim is held up more by tire pressure rather than the tire sidewall.
I've read that the more supple the casing is, the less the rim size matters. The theory being that the rim is held up more by tire pressure rather than the tire sidewall.
Rim size matters less with a stiff casing. At least a stiff casing won't sqirm as much at low pressure. I've pinched some nice high end tires, but those supple sidewalls just gave out if I pushed on them too hard laterally.
I have some 22mm ID rims (28 outer) that I put some 28mm tires on (measured 31mm). It gave what looked like a really nice aero profile, but I tended to ride a bit too much on the sidewall (off of the tread cap) on hard cornering - and there isn't much rubber at all on the sidewall at all. Bummer.
but to your original question, they (22mm id) work great with my 40mm tires. That is their sweet spot - although they work well with my 32 and 33mm tires, and with my 50mm tires.
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I emailed light bicycle and they recommended these 21mm inner diameter rims.
https://www.lightbicycle.com/700C-V-...ompatible.html
I'm not convinced I want to deal with rim brakes on a carbon wheel though.
https://www.lightbicycle.com/700C-V-...ompatible.html
I'm not convinced I want to deal with rim brakes on a carbon wheel though.
I would point you at rims like Easton R90SL, or HED Belgium+ or AForce AL33. They are as nice as alloy rims get, and will make great wheels. Most quality wheel builders have them and can do you up a set to your pick of quality hubs/spokes.
Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 03-14-19 at 03:10 PM.
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Junk in the road. Glass, metal bits, etc.
I just read this comment about the large Compas tires. He's talking about tubless, but in general this is what I want to avoid.
Gravel Cycling Forum | Riding Gravel
I just read this comment about the large Compas tires. He's talking about tubless, but in general this is what I want to avoid.
Gravel Cycling Forum | Riding Gravel
#19
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Ah.
Yeah, I wouldn't say they're any worse at dealing with those things than any other performance-oriented road tire (the protection layers on most racing tires have a bigger role as decorations for the marketing material than anything else), but Rene Herse tires certainly aren't immune to urban debris.
I haven't set mine up tubeless yet because I've gotten very few punctures and have never flatted them off-pavement, although I have used 2" Vittoria latex tubes in the Rat Traps a fair amount.
The suppleness does make the tires fairly pressure-sensitive, and when they're underinflated, they can exhibit some funky behaviors.... down at 15PSI, the front 53 makes the bike handle a bit like a boat, which is downright scary. But they need to be pumped considerably higher than most other similar-sized tires in order to have similar firmness, and I would never intentionally run them that low. On 200lb bike+rider, on gravel I usually have the front at somewhere around 25PSI. I haven't noticed bad behaviors putting the power down.
Yeah, I wouldn't say they're any worse at dealing with those things than any other performance-oriented road tire (the protection layers on most racing tires have a bigger role as decorations for the marketing material than anything else), but Rene Herse tires certainly aren't immune to urban debris.
I just read this comment about the large Compass tires. He's talking about tubless, but in general this is what I want to avoid.
Gravel Cycling Forum | Riding Gravel
Gravel Cycling Forum | Riding Gravel
The suppleness does make the tires fairly pressure-sensitive, and when they're underinflated, they can exhibit some funky behaviors.... down at 15PSI, the front 53 makes the bike handle a bit like a boat, which is downright scary. But they need to be pumped considerably higher than most other similar-sized tires in order to have similar firmness, and I would never intentionally run them that low. On 200lb bike+rider, on gravel I usually have the front at somewhere around 25PSI. I haven't noticed bad behaviors putting the power down.
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Thanks for the wheel suggestions. The Hed Belgium plus is the widest internal at 20.5. The others are 19.5. That's wider but still awfully close to the 18 I already have.
I'm not wedded to the compass. But I do ride on some bad quality roads and trails and I like the idea of a bigger tire that is comfortable and can soak up the road imperfections.
I'm not wedded to the compass. But I do ride on some bad quality roads and trails and I like the idea of a bigger tire that is comfortable and can soak up the road imperfections.
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OK I found another story similar to mine regarding big tires at low pressures
From the comments in this article: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-imp...de-pass-tires/
However, there aren't many 23mm inner diameter rims with rim brakes. I found two carbon light bicycle rims (inner diameters 21 and 23) and there's the boat anchor Velocity Cliffhanger mountain bike rim.
From the comments in this article: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-imp...de-pass-tires/
John, my experience (see my first comment above, June 9 2015) is that the cornering can get squirrelly with pressure below 55 psi rear and 45 psi front. This is with Barlow Pass 700×38 tires mounted on Velocity Synergy rims with 19mm internal width, me at 190 lbs and the bike at 24 lbs. I did some hard sharp turns at low speed to watch what happens – the sidewalls partially collapse and wrinkle up when you feel the tire wash out. At high speed it would be dangerous. By increasing the pressure from 50/40 psi or a bit less (my preference for ride quality) to 55/45 psi, the tire becomes rigid enough under cornering loads to prevent washing out. Obviously, the pressures needed will vary depending on rider+bike+cargo load and cornering style. I needed to carefully sneak up on the best compromise.
I just changed out my wheels to some really wide ones I’ve built: H+Son Todestrieb (really a 29er mountain bike rim) laced to road hubs. These are about 25mm internal width and 32mm external width. The wider rim pretty much eliminates the “light bulb” cross section of these wide tires. The cross section is now similar to a 25mm tire mounted on a standard road rim, just scaled up. The wider rim definitely improves stability in turns. I’ve done a couple rides this week (one in pouring rain), with the pressure dropped to my preferred 50 psi rear/40 psi front, and it is just as stable as it was at 55/45 psi mounted on the narrower rims. The down side of course is that the wider rims weigh quite a bit more – the Todestriebs are listed at 600g each online, but this is optimistic for even the 26″ (559mm) size. My 29″ (700c / 622mm) rims actually weighed in at 740g each, so these are comparable to other large heavy duty rims. Yet the bike rides so nice with the wider rims, I don’t think I mind the heavier wheels.
I just changed out my wheels to some really wide ones I’ve built: H+Son Todestrieb (really a 29er mountain bike rim) laced to road hubs. These are about 25mm internal width and 32mm external width. The wider rim pretty much eliminates the “light bulb” cross section of these wide tires. The cross section is now similar to a 25mm tire mounted on a standard road rim, just scaled up. The wider rim definitely improves stability in turns. I’ve done a couple rides this week (one in pouring rain), with the pressure dropped to my preferred 50 psi rear/40 psi front, and it is just as stable as it was at 55/45 psi mounted on the narrower rims. The down side of course is that the wider rims weigh quite a bit more – the Todestriebs are listed at 600g each online, but this is optimistic for even the 26″ (559mm) size. My 29″ (700c / 622mm) rims actually weighed in at 740g each, so these are comparable to other large heavy duty rims. Yet the bike rides so nice with the wider rims, I don’t think I mind the heavier wheels.
However, there aren't many 23mm inner diameter rims with rim brakes. I found two carbon light bicycle rims (inner diameters 21 and 23) and there's the boat anchor Velocity Cliffhanger mountain bike rim.
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OK I found another story similar to mine regarding big tires at low pressures
From the comments in this article: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-imp...de-pass-tires/
However, there aren't many 23mm inner diameter rims with rim brakes. I found two carbon light bicycle rims (inner diameters 21 and 23) and there's the boat anchor Velocity Cliffhanger mountain bike rim.
From the comments in this article: https://www.gravelbike.com/first-imp...de-pass-tires/
However, there aren't many 23mm inner diameter rims with rim brakes. I found two carbon light bicycle rims (inner diameters 21 and 23) and there's the boat anchor Velocity Cliffhanger mountain bike rim.
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I didn't have any cornering problems with Compass 38mm extralights on my 20.5mm internal width HED rims. (I don't do "extreme" cornering moves on that gravel bike!)
At 170 pounds, I used 35 psi front, and 42 psi rear on rough chipseal and on crushed stone rail trails. It was very smooth, and was still fast and efficient on good road surfaces. I could probably go 5 psi lower on really bad surfaces.
At 170 pounds, I used 35 psi front, and 42 psi rear on rough chipseal and on crushed stone rail trails. It was very smooth, and was still fast and efficient on good road surfaces. I could probably go 5 psi lower on really bad surfaces.
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Sidewall flex isn't inherently bad and doesn't mean it will instantly wash out. Plenty of us cyclocross racers are running 33s at ~20psi, now that is sidewall flex. I'll regular bottom out the rim during prerides and basically air down until i start hitting the rim and then add a few psi.
There is also a huge range of tires between the compass and the tserv that will provide a supple ride with some protection, for example the panaracer gravelking(non sk) I mentioned earlier has a beefier sidewall and protection belt under the tread