Heel Drops While Pedaling
05-28-19, 11:20 PM
#76
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As an aside, I find it flabbergasting that you drink the cool-aide of a decade-old fad like powercranks but go on and on about data and results and the like, and yet you still don't use a power meter.
Probably the quintessential training tool to both qualify and quantify your training and performance. I'm hoping you get one at some point. I think it'll be very insightful.
On the PCs, my guess is that there's no or almost no increase in VO2max, FTP, etc. to be had there. Maybe a few percent in some people. Those markers are determined by the talent and training of the aerobic and anaerobic engines and it doesn't take all that much muscle to drive them to their limits. OTOH, I think PC training could be a big help in the endurance field, especially to newer riders who haven't already spent 20 years developing their technique. Right now I have my stoker on a program of doing as much OLP as she can handle because I spend too much of my strength hauling her feet around the circle. On the one hand it's like my built-in PCs, on the other hand it slows us down.
For a PC program, I'd recommend using them like weight training: maybe Tuesday and Thursday sessions on the trainer or rollers. The big challenge is building hip flexor strength and what's harder, endurance. Like those PC users were saying, it's really pretty easy to do OLP at 50-70 cadence, even with a substantial load. But kick the cadence up to 85 and OMG I'm down from an 75" gear to a 40 and I still can't hold it for 2 minutes. Used to be able to, but can't now. It's one of those things where if you aren't crying for your mommy after 2 minutes, you're using too small a gear. But it works. On the long climbs, it works.
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05-29-19, 10:16 AM
#77
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As promised, here is data from last night's track workout at Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA on the 250 meter indoor wooden track. I used my Garmin Vector 2 power pedals and my Garmin 820 head unit with 1 second recording mounted on my track bike - fixed gear no brakes. When I set up the pedals on my track bike the Garmin asked to set angles, set crank length and calibrate which I did. I clicked on power sensor details and turned on smoothing.
The session included a 60 lap warmup with the last 20 laps a motor burnout and then 2x20 minute motor paced efforts in a 15 rider pace line with each rider taking 2 laps on the motor before pulling up and going to the end. However, in set one, when a rider got to the end of the line, we were supposed to launch an attack from the back and gain 1/2 lap on the motor before swinging up. We each did that twice. Speed was approximately 25 mph. The next set was the same without the attacks but the speed was 26.5 mph.
HR is blue, cadence is light blue and power is brown on the first two graphs.
Overview of the workout from Cycling Analytics
I added the second interval to show how variant power is on the track.
Left right balance
Torque Effectiveness.
Pedal Smoothness
Platform Centre Offset
Power Phase
Peak Power Phase
05-30-19, 11:51 AM
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If you remember, we had a question in Training and Nutrition about pedal smoothness. I have the Vector 2 pedals and I posted this workout for the OP. I cannot draw any conclusions from the data but it is certainly interesting. My left right balance gets closer to 50/50 on the longer harder efforts such that I think many times the difference recorded for the entire time on the track is more about getting on and off the track and accelerations where I may favor my right leg more or it is Garmin not being fast enough to capture the effect of accelerations. I use different pedaling styles depending on the force and duration of the effort. YMMV.
As promised, here is data from last night's track workout at Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA on the 250 meter indoor wooden track. I used my Garmin Vector 2 power pedals and my Garmin 820 head unit with 1 second recording mounted on my track bike - fixed gear no brakes. When I set up the pedals on my track bike the Garmin asked to set angles, set crank length and calibrate which I did. I clicked on power sensor details and turned on smoothing.
The session included a 60 lap warmup with the last 20 laps a motor burnout and then 2x20 minute motor paced efforts in a 15 rider pace line with each rider taking 2 laps on the motor before pulling up and going to the end. However, in set one, when a rider got to the end of the line, we were supposed to launch an attack from the back and gain 1/2 lap on the motor before swinging up. We each did that twice. Speed was approximately 25 mph. The next set was the same without the attacks but the speed was 26.5 mph.
HR is blue, cadence is light blue and power is brown on the first two graphs.
Overview of the workout from Cycling Analytics
I added the second interval to show how variant power is on the track.
Left right balance
Torque Effectiveness.
As promised, here is data from last night's track workout at Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA on the 250 meter indoor wooden track. I used my Garmin Vector 2 power pedals and my Garmin 820 head unit with 1 second recording mounted on my track bike - fixed gear no brakes. When I set up the pedals on my track bike the Garmin asked to set angles, set crank length and calibrate which I did. I clicked on power sensor details and turned on smoothing.
The session included a 60 lap warmup with the last 20 laps a motor burnout and then 2x20 minute motor paced efforts in a 15 rider pace line with each rider taking 2 laps on the motor before pulling up and going to the end. However, in set one, when a rider got to the end of the line, we were supposed to launch an attack from the back and gain 1/2 lap on the motor before swinging up. We each did that twice. Speed was approximately 25 mph. The next set was the same without the attacks but the speed was 26.5 mph.
HR is blue, cadence is light blue and power is brown on the first two graphs.
Overview of the workout from Cycling Analytics
I added the second interval to show how variant power is on the track.
Left right balance
Torque Effectiveness.
05-30-19, 12:52 PM
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I am not sure if I understand your question. I would say no fixed gear does not make any difference. SRM makes a special track unit that is faster and one can back pedal.
05-30-19, 12:58 PM
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I have other power meters on my other bikes - SRM on my road bike and Quarq on my TT bike. I have used the Vector 2 on the road bike and compared it to my SRM. Nothing significant other than the Vector has a slow transient response. One feature of Vector is that one can back pedal without damaging the PM and Vector reports zero watts when back pedaled. One may damage a road SRM that is put on a fix geared bike.
I am not sure if I understand your question. I would say no fixed gear does not make any difference. SRM makes a special track unit that is faster and one can back pedal.
I am not sure if I understand your question. I would say no fixed gear does not make any difference. SRM makes a special track unit that is faster and one can back pedal.
05-30-19, 10:46 PM
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@redlude97 The graphs recently became available with the purchase of the Garmin 820. I do not have any road data with the Vector pedals that have the fancy charts. Interesting stuff. What I think would be interesting are goals for the various metrics. How far off am I, if any, from idealized metrics and does it make any difference in speed.
06-12-19, 11:29 AM
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Jacques Anquetil was noted for his toe-down style. While many cyclists point their toes somewhat downward through at least part of the stroke, Anquetil consistently pointed his toe dramatically downward throughout his stroke.
As a longtime fan of Anquetil's (hey, he was among the most colorful champions and a true libertine), I was always curious about this. But YouTube finally gave me an opportunity to figure out how he did it.
Best I can figure, based on translations from French cycling articles and comments from Anquetil's coach, mechanics, etc., he experimented a lot with bike fit. He seemed to prefer a frame that was slightly too large so he was more stretched out and aero for his specialty, time trials and long solo breakaways. There wasn't much drop from saddle to handlebars, even by 1960s standards. It appeared that the larger frame and saddle height were designed to accommodate his toe-down pedaling, which means either he had to sit more heavily in the saddle, or had uncommonly powerful calves. He tended to spin faster than 80 rpm with an easy, unlabored style, so I'm betting he sat fairly heavily in the saddle, rather than putting more weight on the legs as many cyclists with slower cadences did.
And his mechanic claimed he tried crank arms ranging from the 160 or 165 up to 180 or longer. In most videos and photos his crank arms do appear a bit long. His pedaling stroke often put his thigh parallel with the top tube on the upstroke, while still maintaining that toe-down style on the downstroke. That would take a fairly long crank arm to accomplish. For his 5'10" height, I'm guessing they probably used around 175 most often. I'm 5'11" and have bikes with crank arms ranging from 170 to 175.
I tried to mimic Anquetil's toe-down style, tweaking my bike several times and videoing the tests. When I managed to emulate his pedal stroke, I was indeed sitting heavily in the saddle. I was able to adapt to that with some adjustments, saddle swaps, shorts with thicker pads, etc. But I couldn't generate any power that way unless I rocked at the hips, with the inevitable resulting lower back/hip pain. That experiment lasted a couple of weeks before I returned the bike to my preferred setup.
As a longtime fan of Anquetil's (hey, he was among the most colorful champions and a true libertine), I was always curious about this. But YouTube finally gave me an opportunity to figure out how he did it.
Best I can figure, based on translations from French cycling articles and comments from Anquetil's coach, mechanics, etc., he experimented a lot with bike fit. He seemed to prefer a frame that was slightly too large so he was more stretched out and aero for his specialty, time trials and long solo breakaways. There wasn't much drop from saddle to handlebars, even by 1960s standards. It appeared that the larger frame and saddle height were designed to accommodate his toe-down pedaling, which means either he had to sit more heavily in the saddle, or had uncommonly powerful calves. He tended to spin faster than 80 rpm with an easy, unlabored style, so I'm betting he sat fairly heavily in the saddle, rather than putting more weight on the legs as many cyclists with slower cadences did.
And his mechanic claimed he tried crank arms ranging from the 160 or 165 up to 180 or longer. In most videos and photos his crank arms do appear a bit long. His pedaling stroke often put his thigh parallel with the top tube on the upstroke, while still maintaining that toe-down style on the downstroke. That would take a fairly long crank arm to accomplish. For his 5'10" height, I'm guessing they probably used around 175 most often. I'm 5'11" and have bikes with crank arms ranging from 170 to 175.
I tried to mimic Anquetil's toe-down style, tweaking my bike several times and videoing the tests. When I managed to emulate his pedal stroke, I was indeed sitting heavily in the saddle. I was able to adapt to that with some adjustments, saddle swaps, shorts with thicker pads, etc. But I couldn't generate any power that way unless I rocked at the hips, with the inevitable resulting lower back/hip pain. That experiment lasted a couple of weeks before I returned the bike to my preferred setup.
With the added advantages of cleats and direct arm resistance from a suitable handlebar height setting this was how Anquetil made maximal use of his lower leg muscles to apply the same torque at 12 and 1 o'c as that applied at 3 o'c.
06-23-19, 07:39 AM
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SOLVED.
I took some Cycliq videos of myself pedalling uphill, and captured the heel dropping below "level", during what should be the power portion of my pedal stroke:
I guess I do this without even realizing it. I'm "cheating" by letting my heel drop and pulling through with my hamstring muscles, at a point in the pedal stroke when I should be pushing downward. It's pure laziness (AKA "energy conservation").
So I made a conscious effort to keep my toes pointed and ankles stiff. The result? Hamstring pain in my left leg vanished instantly. I had been dealing with this for months, lots of stretching and babying and massages. All eliminated just by not letting my heel drop.
Will be keeping my ankles stiff from now on,
I took some Cycliq videos of myself pedalling uphill, and captured the heel dropping below "level", during what should be the power portion of my pedal stroke:
I guess I do this without even realizing it. I'm "cheating" by letting my heel drop and pulling through with my hamstring muscles, at a point in the pedal stroke when I should be pushing downward. It's pure laziness (AKA "energy conservation").
So I made a conscious effort to keep my toes pointed and ankles stiff. The result? Hamstring pain in my left leg vanished instantly. I had been dealing with this for months, lots of stretching and babying and massages. All eliminated just by not letting my heel drop.
Will be keeping my ankles stiff from now on,
