Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

What makes a crit bike a crit bike?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

What makes a crit bike a crit bike?

Old 02-25-19, 09:22 PM
  #1  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
What makes a crit bike a crit bike?

TL;DR: Money no object, is the Allez Sprint a better crit bike than a Venge or Madone or any other aero bike due to geometry or handling or some other characteristics?

Long version:

I have an Allez Sprint, which is probably the most archetypal crit bike to exist. Slightly aero, alumninum for crashes and cost, super stiff and responsive handling.

However, this is currently my only bike and personally, I’m not heavy or powerful enough to detect flex in any decent bike - but I’m light and sensitive enough to get blown around and jarred by rough pavement. I do race crits, and do get very aggressive with the risks I take and the moves I make so I do have use for a good crit bike.

I’m thinking about getting a new bike and I have to decide whether to keep the Allez and get a “training” bike that focuses on durability and comfort or to replace the Allez with a single higher end bike that’s more comfortable and more aero (like a Venge or Madone).

If a Venge or Madone would be worse in any way than the Allez in a crit, I’d like to know. For example, can I pedal the same through corners? Can I change lines quickly if other people swerve? Is the geometry well suited to frequent sprints? Basically, is an expensive aero bike better than an Allez Sprint in every way, or are there some compromises?

Sorry if I’m overthinking this, but it’s a big financial decision.
smashndash is offline  
Old 02-25-19, 09:30 PM
  #2  
TheKillerPenguin
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times in 237 Posts
If you are not afraid to crash it, it is a crit bike.
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Likes For TheKillerPenguin:
Old 02-25-19, 09:36 PM
  #3  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
If you are not afraid to crash it, it is a crit bike.
fair enough. But I’d also feel a lot better about getting a “slow” bike if I knew there was some performance advantage to keeping the Allez.
smashndash is offline  
Old 02-25-19, 09:57 PM
  #4  
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash
What makes a crit bike a crit bike?
Riding it in a crit.

Any road bike can fit the bill - just race what you can replace. Frames rarely break in crashes, so really you should worry about hoods & wheels as far as damage goes.
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 01:10 AM
  #5  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
Originally Posted by mattm
Riding it in a crit.

Any road bike can fit the bill - just race what you can replace. Frames rarely break in crashes, so really you should worry about hoods & wheels as far as damage goes.
Interestingly enough, someone snapped their frame in a pileup at the cat 4 CBR yesterday haha.

The thing is, I understand that crashes are a part of racing. Personally, I’m obsessed enough with marginal gains that I’d probably want to build up my allez (or even a new disc frame) with parts that would come on a Venge or whatever anyway. My question isn’t “is it worth racing an expensive bike?”, it’s “is there any advantage to racing the Allez Sprint in a criterium over other bikes that are theoretically faster?”. Justin Williams, Peter Sagan and a local elite racer from the CA bay all had no problem demolishing criteriums on Allez Sprints, which is why I ask.
smashndash is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 01:34 AM
  #6  
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 30 Posts
Just race whatever you got man.

After a relatively low cost point, the bike doesn't matter and it's all about the pilot.
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 06:18 AM
  #7  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 752 Times in 342 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash
For example, can I pedal the same through corners? Can I change lines quickly if other people swerve? Is the geometry well suited to frequent sprints? Basically, is an expensive aero bike better than an Allez Sprint in every way, or are there some compromises?


You begin to dance around a wildly subtle point about handling which points to an answer that requires loads of ride and what you're used to. I once pulled an utterly impossible move on a giant in turn 3 at a twilight crit. I hit a painted crosswalk, and the front wheel broke loose. But somehow, as I was going down, I righted it. Could I have done this on some other bike? Maybe. Maybe not. And that isn't saying it was the bike that made the move possible. I don't think it was. But had I been on something else for the first or fortieth time, I'm sure to have gone done. But having put years and years and years on that particular geometry and handling I pulled something off that saved my butt.

In the end though those situations are mercifully rare. Position and comfort trumps everything else. And the bike really doesn't matter much beyond that it functions.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 07:52 AM
  #8  
Wylde06
Senior Member
 
Wylde06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,208

Bikes: Cannondale Six13

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by mattm
Riding it in a crit.

Any road bike can fit the bill - just race what you can replace. Frames rarely break in crashes, so really you should worry about hoods & wheels as far as damage goes.

The only frame ive seen break in a crash wasnt so much because he crashed...but because the guy snapped both chainstays with a monster sprint.
Wylde06 is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 08:03 AM
  #9  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,690
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times in 631 Posts
Pics? I find that tough to believe, unless it was a early bonded frame of some type, and he was quite heavy. Or the bike was a Firenze that he got free with his car stereo.
Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 08:26 AM
  #10  
TMonk
Not actually Tmonk
 
TMonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 13,938

Bikes: road, track, mtb

Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2505 Post(s)
Liked 2,960 Times in 1,571 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash
I’m thinking about getting a new bike and I have to decide whether to keep the Allez and get a “training” bike that focuses on durability and comfort
This is pretty much what I do. I bought a used Venge elite that I race on, and I own a Giant TCR Advanced ISP for training. The Venge, with all of the aero bits, tires, wheels and tubes is a faster bike unless the road tilts straight up, but the TCR rides much, much better.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
TMonk is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 08:50 AM
  #11  
ancker
W**** B*
 
ancker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Central IL (Chambana)
Posts: 992

Bikes: Several

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Yup.
I have a 14.5lb Cannondale SuperSix Evo built up for comfort. It gets the vast majority of my miles.
I also have an Allez Sprint, set up way more aggressive, super stiff, around 16lbs. I haven't raced it, but I only use it for <2.5hour "fast" rides.

To me, there are a few characteristics that make a bike a 'crit bike' in the sense of "this is a bike built for crits".
1) Cheap-ish. Not low quality, just less expensive to reduce crash replacement costs. Think 105 over DA, Force/Rival over Red. (Or if you're like me, eTap and never look back.)
2) Stiff. Crits usually have accelerations that you need to respond to. 1-size smaller frame. Probably not very fun on anything longer than a crit.
3) Aggressive. Normally run a -6 with 5mm of spacers? Slam that stem and throw on a -17. Get Low. After all, you only need to hold this position for <60m (as long as you can still make power here.)
4) No extras. No frame bag, No lights, no frame pump, no extra anything. Maybe even 1x if you only do flat crits.

This is by no means exhaustive or even necessarily correct. It's just what _I_ think of when someone says crit bike.
ancker is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 09:10 AM
  #12  
Cypress
Globo Gym lifetime member
 
Cypress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 5,204

Bikes: Fast ones

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 410 Post(s)
Liked 614 Times in 306 Posts
I've raced literally hundreds of crits and can say that I want the fastest bike I can afford. Saving 5-10 watts on aero stuff is completely mentally worth it if you find yourself in the breakaway or solo'ing. That being said, all of the aero shiite on this planet can't help you if your tactics suck

As far as having different bikes, there's something to be said about truly knowing the limits of your race bike. Seems like a dodgy idea to hop on a somewhat unfamiliar bike and place yourself into a pack doing 35+ through 90-degree corners. Having different geometry is another issue that I could go on about. Unless you set up both bikes with identical geometries, you will spend half of your race adjusting your biomechanics to the race bike that you rarely ride. It's like when people hop on a TT bike thinking they'll crush it with their 400W FTP, then only manage 300W because their body isn't used to making power in that position.

.
__________________
Cypress is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 09:33 AM
  #13  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb
You begin to dance around a wildly subtle point about handling which points to an answer that requires loads of ride and what you're used to. I once pulled an utterly impossible move on a giant in turn 3 at a twilight crit. I hit a painted crosswalk, and the front wheel broke loose. But somehow, as I was going down, I righted it. Could I have done this on some other bike? Maybe. Maybe not. And that isn't saying it was the bike that made the move possible. I don't think it was. But had I been on something else for the first or fortieth time, I'm sure to have gone done. But having put years and years and years on that particular geometry and handling I pulled something off that saved my butt.

In the end though those situations are mercifully rare. Position and comfort trumps everything else. And the bike really doesn't matter much beyond that it functions.
Believe it or not, something very similar happened to me on Sunday at the CBR crit that got me thinking the same thing. Someone hooked their bar with my right arm and pulled on it in a corner. I managed to save it, along with probably 3 or 4 really close calls that day (fields were 70+ and 90+ for the two races).

I was pretty convinced before that the Allez was just a cheap race bike - but I can’t be sure I would have been able to do what I did during that race with some other bike with less crit-specific handling. Maybe you’re right - it’s more about what you’re used to. In which case it’d be a pretty bad idea to train on one bike and reserve another purely for races.
smashndash is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 09:40 AM
  #14  
smashndash
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,410

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 850 Post(s)
Liked 344 Times in 247 Posts
Originally Posted by Cypress
I've raced literally hundreds of crits and can say that I want the fastest bike I can afford. Saving 5-10 watts on aero stuff is completely mentally worth it if you find yourself in the breakaway or solo'ing. That being said, all of the aero shiite on this planet can't help you if your tactics suck

As far as having different bikes, there's something to be said about truly knowing the limits of your race bike. Seems like a dodgy idea to hop on a somewhat unfamiliar bike and place yourself into a pack doing 35+ through 90-degree corners. Having different geometry is another issue that I could go on about. Unless you set up both bikes with identical geometries, you will spend half of your race adjusting your biomechanics to the race bike that you rarely ride. It's like when people hop on a TT bike thinking they'll crush it with their 400W FTP, then only manage 300W because their body isn't used to making power in that position.

.
Yeah I think this is something similar to what gsteinb was saying. I hadn’t even considered the potential ramifications of racing on a relatively unfamiliar bike. Maybe the gains in handling, comfort, power etc from training on one’s race bike are far more significant than any nuances from layup schedules, geometry, aerodynamics etc.

I think I’ve made my decision- as long as I’m racing, it’s probably worth the hassle to train on a race bike, whichever bike that is.
smashndash is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 09:40 AM
  #15  
Wylde06
Senior Member
 
Wylde06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,208

Bikes: Cannondale Six13

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by Lemond1985
Pics? I find that tough to believe, unless it was a early bonded frame of some type, and he was quite heavy. Or the bike was a Firenze that he got free with his car stereo.
No pics that I know of..but I watched it happen. Brand new S Works frame
Wylde06 is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 09:48 AM
  #16  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Steep & stiff ...Higher BB, to pedal, accelerate out of corners sooner, was a feature... current bikes ? IDK.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 10:29 AM
  #17  
furiousferret
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times in 250 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash


Interestingly enough, someone snapped their frame in a pileup at the cat 4 CBR yesterday haha.

The thing is, I understand that crashes are a part of racing. Personally, I’m obsessed enough with marginal gains that I’d probably want to build up my allez (or even a new disc frame) with parts that would come on a Venge or whatever anyway. My question isn’t “is it worth racing an expensive bike?”, it’s “is there any advantage to racing the Allez Sprint in a criterium over other bikes that are theoretically faster?”. Justin Williams, Peter Sagan and a local elite racer from the CA bay all had no problem demolishing criteriums on Allez Sprints, which is why I ask.
You can get pretty aero and fast on 'cheap' stuff. Body position and your kit (tight one piece) are the biggest component. After that the tire / tube setup saves a ton, its not 'aero' per se but good rolling resistance can save up to 25 watts. Then go with deep wheels, a cleaner cockpit (cable management and aero bar). The frame itself only accounts for about 17% of total drag so its a very small component. Additionally weight is typically not a major factor so you don't have to pay thousands extra for a gram here or there.
furiousferret is offline  
Old 02-26-19, 06:14 PM
  #18  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times in 560 Posts
At one point I had a cheap aluminum specifically crit bike. I did it because I didn't want to wreck my "nice" bike. Pretty sure it was someone on here that pointed out that I needed to be racing what I was spending my time riding on. Regardless of how it handles, etc...if you have piles f hours on it then you will know how to make it do what you need it to do. You will also start to realize that certain bikes will just work with you better naturally for your riding style. For me I found I didn't like the geometry or handling feel of Trek and Specialized rigs. I much preferred Giant. (cue someone pointing out they are all the same geometry - womp womp). Doesn't really matter.... where was I?,,

Oh yeah, I found I was riding the alloy crit bike all the time. Pretty soon a couple of seasons had gone by and I hadn't ridden the "nice" bike at all. Sold it at the next swap meet for way less than I wanted to (like $250). Looking back on it - not racing that "nice bike" was a huge mistake. I felt more comfortable on it, it had better racing geometry, etc. It was a race bike that I also happened to enjoy riding for training as well.

Then someone pointed out to me that carbon bikes were more easy to repair than aluminum ones anyway. Couple that with being able to find used frames of both types around the same price as each other anyway. Just ride what you want to ride/race. Life happens. If you destroy it in a race it will suck but if you can't deal with it then you probably shouldn't race it. If you aren't racing it then why do you have it?

Just the way I look at it.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 02-27-19, 07:42 PM
  #19  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444

Bikes: bikes

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times in 711 Posts
If you race it in a crit, it's a crit bike.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 03-02-19, 12:24 PM
  #20  
Matt2.8NJ
una carrera contrarreloj
 
Matt2.8NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 586

Bikes: Venge, Tarmac, Cervelo P2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
If you race it in a crit, it's a crit bike.
+1

I've reduced my number of road bikes down to two - one commuter, and one "race, train, all else" bike. Hurts my knee to switch between bikes, so I keep it to a minimum.

Also agree on carbon being easy to repair. My Tarmac Pro that I race on has been repaired twice. It has almost no resale value now, making it the "ultimate" crit bike.
Matt2.8NJ is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
afham07
Road Cycling
14
04-17-19 09:00 AM
Radish_legs
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
21
08-01-18 11:12 AM
lsberrios1
Road Cycling
180
06-17-18 04:16 PM
JimShep
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
32
06-28-17 05:45 PM
dmagic17
Triathlon
7
06-06-10 07:18 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.