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2020 navigation thread

Old 12-19-19, 02:51 PM
  #1  
chrisx
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2020 navigation thread

Something for the old timers who want to join the modern beep beep beepathon follow a phone down the road crowd.

My gps is more than 10 years old. I do not know how to down load a map to it. I seldom use it at all. When I go down into Baja I use the utm grid on my gps to find my place on a paper map.

I see fat ladys following phones around all over everwhere. Food app? I dont know. Maybe it is not as hard as it sounds?

2020 means the latest and greatest way to navigate a long distance international touring route.

Start at the beginning. Special phone? All phones and an app? Is google maps on all phones and anyone can use it?

I have crossed the country from ocean to ocean using the sun as my only navigation tool. So really, start at the beginning of the high tech navigation story. The advanced class can be on page 3.

Last edited by chrisx; 12-19-19 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 12-19-19, 04:25 PM
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If you have toured coast to coast using the sun, you also have the best tactic available to stay found, namely paying attention to your surroundings. I am astonished that that highly trained and motivated naval officers as well as crews of other vessels, with the most modern equipment, still crash into each other. Just a few years ago an Italian cruise ship ran aground and sunk. Some years back, maybe 25 or so, a US sub surfaced under a Japanese fishing vessel near Hawaii and sunk it. It seems clear someone was not paying attention to the job at hand. While technology is a useful tool, we are not absolved from the basics.
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Old 12-19-19, 07:48 PM
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A smart phone and the Gaia app are good for off-road adventures. Gaia is an annual membership but their maps are great. There are other free options. The Maps.me app can be useful for finding things like grocery stores and other important touring destinations if you don't have a data connection. Of course Google Maps can do that too if you're getting a data signal.

Although I prefer paper maps mostly, it's nice to have the technology handy as a backup. It's especially nice if you're riding through a foreign city and need to find safe routes to get around. I've never used a turn-by-turn directions feature mainly because they're annoying, but I could see them being handy on occasion.
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Old 12-20-19, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
Maybe it is not as hard as it sounds?
Technology is not hard.

If you've used a computer (desktop or laptop, etc.) you can use a phone.

And Tourist Info places are great places to get paper maps.
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Old 12-20-19, 06:39 AM
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If you have time on your side then you can wing it all 🙂
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Old 12-20-19, 07:56 AM
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There's lots of options when using a smart phone(no help I know..but the web is full of info on this), that being said..you should only use a smartphone for navigation if you have lots of capacity to keep it charged. Cell phone navigation can suck a lot of power..less if you use offline maps..but power is still an issue. A cell phone is better used as a backup nav device and more importantly as your bailout safety device if you need help. If you suck your cell battery down due to using for navigation and then need help..you have a problem. ..mho..
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Old 12-21-19, 10:10 AM
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Three considerations:
  1. Works offline. (essential). Whatever platform, you should be able to download all required maps AND build routes offline.
  2. Energy requirements. (Important). Two things here. One is autonomy (i.e. hours between recharges). The other is energy consumed, say, in Watts. You want to minimize Wattage, and have an autonomy of, say, 12h+ on a single charge.
  3. Ruggedness/redundancy. (Desirable) something that works when the weather doesn't cooperate. And a system that won't let you stranded if a device fails.
In my case, it means a smartwatch and two phones, one of which is strictly a backup. I use Locus pro / bRouter on Android (S10). Easy to create routes on the go. Routes can be pushed wirelessly to the watch (F5). The watch is mounted on handlebars. It is works well on roads (phone works better in cities) and consumes next to nothing (1Wh per week! - 40+ times better than a phone).
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Old 12-21-19, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
...
I have crossed the country from ocean to ocean using the sun as my only navigation tool. So really, start at the beginning of the high tech navigation story. The advanced class can be on page 3.
Is there a question there? If you are asking should you get a new phone or should you get a new GPS or should you do something else, I am not sure. Thus, I have no comment.
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Old 12-21-19, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Is there a question there?.
The question is,

drum rooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllll,


If a person wants to take advantage of the modern world. what modern navigation equiptment is good and reliable for a bicycle tourist?

Or

How do you follow a line on a phone or other navigation device into the next decade? Or into Canada or Guatemala or someplace nice.

International navigation is the question. How does it work? what gear do we need to make it work?

I have a lot of old stuff. My newest bike is an 2009., My gps is at least 10 years old, as is my phone. I have a pile of old tires that may have been nice back in the day.

I am cleaning out the closet. I built some new tubeless ready wheels for the 26er. I got some new 2.6 x 29 tubeless ready rires for the Fargo. I even bought an 11 speed friction shifter and cassettes. etc. New 2019 tubeless tires inflate so very easy compared to the old ones. How long should we cling to the old stuff when the nw stuff is new and improved?

I am updating my gear and making myself ready for the next decade.

Last edited by chrisx; 12-21-19 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 12-21-19, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
How do you follow a line on a phone or other navigation device into the next decade? Or into Canada or Guatemala or someplace nice.
Surely there must be somewhere in Canada or Guatemala that is nice.
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Old 12-21-19, 04:42 PM
  #11  
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You did not say if you have a smart phone or not. If you have an android based one (meaning almost every phone that is not an apple), the two Android based apps I have used recently were Maps.Me and Komoot

Maps.me gets better every year, but is mostly designed for car drivers. It has an option for bicycle routing, but I did not like the way it routes on bikes very much. The HUGE advantage of this app is that if you load your maps where you are going into it when you have wifi, it does not need a data connection to operate. If you did not understand what I just said, ask a friend that has a smart phone.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...s.pro&hl=en_US

Komoot does pretty well as a cycling routing app, but sometimes it gets pretty weird, I think it best to look at a route it suggests and then decide if that appears to make sense. You can adjust routes on it too. But it needs a data plan or wifi to operate.
I https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...droid&hl=en_US

I used to use Soviet Military Maps android app too, about 7 years ago when I first started using phone based mapping apps, there were not many out there and this one could provide topo maps. But I almost never use it any more.

Google maps might work too, but I have never used it on a phone so I do not know.

If you have an apple phone, I have no clue what is available out there.

If you are looking for a newer GPS, first decision is do you want one that is cycling specific or more generic. I prefer one that will operate on AA batteries that I can use for hiking, backpacking, kayaking, canoeing, besides cycling. Since I have no experience with the cycling specific ones and I assume that is what you want, I am not going to suggest any.

Phones, some are hard to read in sunlight, some people claim they are fine, my particular phone is impossible to see in sunlight. My GPS is a Garmin and I think all Garmins are easily readable in sunlight with the back light off.


Originally Posted by chrisx
.... I even bought an 11 speed friction shifter and cassettes. etc. ...
Wow, you are really going modern. My friction shifters were never used for more than five or six speeds. Does yours have extra friction for the extra gears? <Chuckle.>
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Old 12-21-19, 05:15 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I used to use Soviet Military Maps android app too...

Google maps might work too, but I have never used it on a phone so I do not know.
In some respects you sort of still are using soviet maps..Maps.Me (previously "Maps With Me") appears to be based in Moscow. At least that's where I landed a month or two ago when I was looking into it. I too use Maps.Me quite a bit. Very handy..I prep routes(tracks) in other software and save/export them to a kmz file. I then email the kmz to myself, open it on my smartphone and use Maps.Me to view the kmz..the route/track is then saved in my Maps.Me bookmarks. It can be turned off and on as needed by tapping on it..

Google maps allows you to download prepared maps for offline use..but I think the expire-evaporate in a month or so. kmz or kml files can be imported into Google My Maps.
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Old 12-21-19, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
I am updating my gear and making myself ready for the next decade.
Where electronics are concerned..4-5 years is about as much you can hope for. I had a Samsung Galaxy S3 up until a couple years ago(got it around 2012-2013). It worked fine..no complaints, but my carrier sent a letter and said their network would no longer support it..soo..time to get a new phone.

As for a gps units..they may have a longer life. I have a 5 channel gps unit from 20ish years ago that still works fine...though I use a modern unit now as it's much smaller and lighter. The user-software is much nicer also & I can import custom-made maps.
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Old 12-22-19, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
The question is,

How do you follow a line on a phone or other navigation device into the next decade?

I am updating my gear and making myself ready for the next decade.
I got my first smart phone at Easter in 2016 ... in just a few months it will be 4 years old. It is still OK ... I'm not rushing out to buy a new one yet, but I am starting to discover apps that won't run on my phone.

As above, hoping for a decade out of a phone might be kind of wishful thinking.
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Old 12-22-19, 06:18 AM
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My employer issued me my first smart phone 2.5 years ago. I’ve never download an app to it.
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Old 12-22-19, 07:40 AM
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I use a (gasp) Apple smart phone and google maps for all my navigation. I don’t need to run it continually when on the bike ( it resides in a handlebar bag), just check and remember where the next turn is. Google maps shows most of the bicycle trails and mups in green. I have tried other maps but didn’t like them as well. All maps have errors and shortcomings, so anecdotal evidence like, well I followed my map and it caused me to ride offf a cliff and I almost died isn’t to helpful, which is mostly what you hear about,
if your gps is a Garmin and you could figure out the convoluted menu system in them, I doubt you will have much trouble with any smart phone.
I would also add you can still carry paper maps and a compass, although I haven’t used a paper map in 15 years and my phone has a compass in it.
Good luck with your transformation into the digital world it’s not as hard as it looks. I’m 75 years old and ok (just ok) with it.
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Old 12-22-19, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fishboat
.....Maps.Me (previously "Maps With Me") appears to be based in Moscow. At least that's where I landed a month or two ago when I was looking into it. ....
Google play store where i downloaded it from lists the developer as being in Amsterdam.

I started using Maps With Me in 2012. I recall liking it so much I paid the extra one time fee for the pro version that guaranteed that I would not have a bunch of ads to deal with. Now that they switched to a subscription fee system, I am constantly seeing ads. As a mater of principle I refuse to pay twice, I only use the free version. It is much better, in 2012 it was just a mapping system with no routing, etc. I still do not like their bike routing very much, I expect it will improve over time.
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Old 12-22-19, 08:07 AM
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There is not any magic always-works-best-solution to routing. Different phone apps and some GPS options vary from one situation to the next because they are all designed for a generic system of roads and generic systems of databases for road data. Thus what works best one day might not be the best option the next day. Several months ago I wrote up a lengthy post on how I do my day to day routing on a several week long tour. Described how I use paper maps, GPS, and phone apps. Bottom line, some days the paper map was the best option for routing. That post is at:
https://www.bikeforums.net/21179305-post2.html
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Old 12-22-19, 12:58 PM
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In my opinion, nothing can come close to Google Maps for bicycle touring.
Does Garmin or others offer satellite view? Where you can actually find a place to stealth camp before you get there? (this worked many times this summer to my amazement)
Google Maps also now works in "Airplane Mode" so you don't drain your battery as fast.
You can search for places to eat, sleep and see the sights on a phone, as well as make a phone call.
I can't think of a single thing that has made my touring experience as easy in the last 30 years.
Do I need a back-up? Nope. There are people around that are usually willing to help. There is nothing wrong with your phone going dead without power for a day. You won't die.
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Old 12-23-19, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Google play store where i downloaded it from lists the developer as being in Amsterdam.
Yah.. I saw that, but when you go to their website the "Contacts" link indicates a Moscow address..not sure if it matters in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 12-26-19, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisx
Something for the old timers who want to join the modern beep beep beepathon follow a phone down the road crowd.
My gps is more than 10 years old. I do not know how to down load a map to it. I seldom use it at all. When I go down into Baja I use the utm grid on my gps to find my place on a paper map.
I see fat ladys following phones around all over everwhere. Food app? I dont know. Maybe it is not as hard as it sounds?
2020 means the latest and greatest way to navigate a long distance international touring route.
Start at the beginning. Special phone? All phones and an app? Is google maps on all phones and anyone can use it?
I have crossed the country from ocean to ocean using the sun as my only navigation tool. So really, start at the beginning of the high tech navigation story. The advanced class can be on page 3.
I struggled to find actual questions or points in this, but there they are!
So here are answers to all your questions.

- Who knows why fat 'ladys' are following phones around. I would guess it isnt specifically for food and instead its for the same general reasons as much of the public follows phones around.
- No, it isnt as hard as it sounds. It doesnt sound hard though because its just a phone. Little kids can operate smart phones and navigate thru apps- this isnt rocket science, its about the easiest interface available, given the capability.
- Are you asking if you need a special phone? If thats what you are asking- well nobody here would know since we dont know your plans. A GPS works around the globe(thats the G in GPS). A smart phone has that, so i guess thats a special phone, even though they are hardly special.
- If you want to use a smart phone and app, then have at it. If you want to use a dedicated GPS device, then have at it. Keep using paper maps or whatever it is that you use to navigate the Baja. All have benefits and drawbacks.
- Google maps isnt on all phones. Sure, anyone can use Google maps since its just a free public use app.


Always interesting to participate in a chrisx thread.
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