Can you help identify this bike? Vintage photo
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Can you help identify this bike? Vintage photo
Hey all: found a lovely picture of my father in the early 50s on tour in Germany. Trying to figure out what his bike was (not by brand - that would be impossible I think) but generally what this might be.
Looks to have a Sturmey Archer style quadrant shifter on the top tube, and a derailleur of some sort at the back as well. Crank looks unique as well.
Any thoughts?
Looks to have a Sturmey Archer style quadrant shifter on the top tube, and a derailleur of some sort at the back as well. Crank looks unique as well.
Any thoughts?
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I think that bike is equipped with hybrid gearing like the old Cyclo Benelux 2- or 3-speed cog block that replaced the stock single cog, coupled with a Cyclo Benelux Mk. 7 derailleur. They sold a kit and they were in wide use for many years. Here's one rider's account. St. Sheldon also wrote of them.
For that matter, in this thread it is noted one can just run two standard Sturmey dished cogs and create the same setup.
I am assuming we are talking about the bike in the relative foreground. I think the bars are a little racier than standard North Road bends and are inverted to a "drop" position and that looks like an unsprung leather saddle, so it's probably something nicer than the standard Raleigh Sports.
For that matter, in this thread it is noted one can just run two standard Sturmey dished cogs and create the same setup.
I am assuming we are talking about the bike in the relative foreground. I think the bars are a little racier than standard North Road bends and are inverted to a "drop" position and that looks like an unsprung leather saddle, so it's probably something nicer than the standard Raleigh Sports.
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Hey....that's familier. Looks like the castle in Heidelberg.
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To clarify - the one in the foreground. Though I believe both bikes to have bags etc.
He and his buddy were likely in their mid teens when this photo was taken.
He and his buddy were likely in their mid teens when this photo was taken.
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Looking at some of the photos in "The Dancing Chain," I am thinking it is a 1930s Simplex rear derailleur, rather than hybrid system. For one, I don't see two sets of shifters and connecting cables.
(I happily used a Cyclo/Sturmey 4x3 hybrid for several years, with a 14-16-18-20 cogset and a long rear axle on a regular AW hub. With 40T up front and 26" tires, I had 10 unique ratios (2 duplicates where the ranges overlapped) spanning 39 to 99 gear-inches.
(I happily used a Cyclo/Sturmey 4x3 hybrid for several years, with a 14-16-18-20 cogset and a long rear axle on a regular AW hub. With 40T up front and 26" tires, I had 10 unique ratios (2 duplicates where the ranges overlapped) spanning 39 to 99 gear-inches.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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-----
new image -
in first image it appeared crown might be semi-sloping; in this image it is clear it is a flat topper
looks to come down to a single point in the side
there is a triangular cutout in the side which makes me think it may be a Vagner Nr. 12 or Nr. 12+
both Haden and Ekla offered similar patterns
if frame constructed with such a forged crown it would place it above the level of a Raleigh Sports and similar machines
note that brake levers are road model rather than tourist model - suggests cycle may have come from factory with a drop bar
brake calipers appear to be constructed of dural which eliminates lower model planetary machines
-----
new image -
in first image it appeared crown might be semi-sloping; in this image it is clear it is a flat topper
looks to come down to a single point in the side
there is a triangular cutout in the side which makes me think it may be a Vagner Nr. 12 or Nr. 12+
both Haden and Ekla offered similar patterns
if frame constructed with such a forged crown it would place it above the level of a Raleigh Sports and similar machines
note that brake levers are road model rather than tourist model - suggests cycle may have come from factory with a drop bar
brake calipers appear to be constructed of dural which eliminates lower model planetary machines
-----
Last edited by juvela; 10-19-23 at 12:51 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Kind of looks like a BSA monogram crankset (not my photo, just pulled off internet):
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That looks to me like a Weinmann sidepull front caliper, and I am with @juvela in saying those are road levers that would have been standard on a dropped-bar bike.
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juvela : my goodness you have sharp eyes!
I was hoping the chainwheel might help - it does follow the Williams pattern but seems to me the spokes are “heavier”.
I believe there is only a front brake - I see no indication of a lever or cable on the left handlebar in either picture, also no caliper at the back. However there is some sort of chrome fitting near the chainstays in both view (might be a chain guide).
Would someone use a quadrant style shifter with a derailleur? I guess I see no reason why not but hadn’t seen that before.
I was hoping the chainwheel might help - it does follow the Williams pattern but seems to me the spokes are “heavier”.
I believe there is only a front brake - I see no indication of a lever or cable on the left handlebar in either picture, also no caliper at the back. However there is some sort of chrome fitting near the chainstays in both view (might be a chain guide).
Would someone use a quadrant style shifter with a derailleur? I guess I see no reason why not but hadn’t seen that before.
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To me, the whole of the crank is too bulky to be the Williams or BSA and the spider does not match either in appearance. (at least for the pics I could find of said cranks) If I did not know the date as early 50s, I would say it is a Stronglight 57.
For some reason, the photographer directing his subject to look off in the distance in both pics cracks me up. Someone thinking they are Steichen? But then I am told I have an odd sense of humor.
For some reason, the photographer directing his subject to look off in the distance in both pics cracks me up. Someone thinking they are Steichen? But then I am told I have an odd sense of humor.
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To me, the whole of the crank is too bulky to be the Williams or BSA and the spider does not match either in appearance. (at least for the pics I could find of said cranks) If I did not know the date as early 50s, I would say it is a Stronglight 57.
For some reason, the photographer directing his subject to look off in the distance in both pics cracks me up. Someone thinking they are Steichen? But then I am told I have an odd sense of humor.
For some reason, the photographer directing his subject to look off in the distance in both pics cracks me up. Someone thinking they are Steichen? But then I am told I have an odd sense of humor.
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That looks just like a Williams B100 with a 46 tooth ring. The sloping crown and Cyclo Benelux make me think it's a late 1930s Rudge, like a 1939 No. 80 Light Tourist with the bars inverted.
https://threespeedhub.com/wp-content...og_1939_UK.pdf
Labeled page Twenty Seven in the catalog.
After the Raleigh merger, the Rudge line don't seem to have been equipped with, nor had the braze-on for, a derailleur like the one here. I think Raleigh kept those for the Lenton line after the war.
https://threespeedhub.com/wp-content...og_1939_UK.pdf
Labeled page Twenty Seven in the catalog.
After the Raleigh merger, the Rudge line don't seem to have been equipped with, nor had the braze-on for, a derailleur like the one here. I think Raleigh kept those for the Lenton line after the war.
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Last edited by CV-6; 10-19-23 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Added photo
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It seems a lot of landing on English bikes of that era; I hadn’t considered my father having one as he never talked about this time of his life so I assumed he would be riding something German made. He certainly wasn’t a bike gear head as later when I got super interested in bikes (about the same age as he was in the photos) he didn’t say a word about equipment.
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juvela : my goodness you have sharp eyes!
I was hoping the chainwheel might help - it does follow the Williams pattern but seems to me the spokes are “heavier”.
I believe there is only a front brake - I see no indication of a lever or cable on the left handlebar in either picture, also no caliper at the back. However there is some sort of chrome fitting near the chainstays in both view (might be a chain guide).
Would someone use a quadrant style shifter with a derailleur? I guess I see no reason why not but hadn’t seen that before.
I was hoping the chainwheel might help - it does follow the Williams pattern but seems to me the spokes are “heavier”.
I believe there is only a front brake - I see no indication of a lever or cable on the left handlebar in either picture, also no caliper at the back. However there is some sort of chrome fitting near the chainstays in both view (might be a chain guide).
Would someone use a quadrant style shifter with a derailleur? I guess I see no reason why not but hadn’t seen that before.
It seems a lot of landing on English bikes of that era; I hadn’t considered my father having one as he never talked about this time of his life so I assumed he would be riding something German made. He certainly wasn’t a bike gear head as later when I got super interested in bikes (about the same age as he was in the photos) he didn’t say a word about equipment.
My apologies for leading us all into a wild-goose chase. I think it's a German bike with an F&S coaster brake/derailleur system.
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rustystrings61 : By Jove I Think You’ve Got It!
Thanks for that link - it helps explain a lot including the use of a drop bar brake lever on a flat handlebar, and the lack of any apparent rear brake. Even the bell position looks similar.
I had never heard of a coaster brake with a derailleur either.
Thanks for that link - it helps explain a lot including the use of a drop bar brake lever on a flat handlebar, and the lack of any apparent rear brake. Even the bell position looks similar.
I had never heard of a coaster brake with a derailleur either.
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A quick check of Berto and there you have it: both and F&S and a Honer. Interesting that he comments “Like most other German derailleurs, it was combined with a back-pedal brake”….
The photo also explains the contraption on the chainstay in the first picture.
The photo also explains the contraption on the chainstay in the first picture.
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Found yet another photo out of which I cropped the bike part. Fuzzy but it at least shows the rear derailleur. Photos are in a big pile intermixed and not in any sort of order……
(Don’t mind the young lady’s legs - they’re not my mom’s )
(Don’t mind the young lady’s legs - they’re not my mom’s )
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I am seriously impressed by the amount of engineering that went into this cable and guide pulley:
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